Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #150 on: 28/08/2016 00:22:10 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #151 on: 28/08/2016 00:47:38 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"

Yes that is a very interesting point. Maybe someone will address it once all the arguing stops.

Why wait? Let's look at it now.

Suppose an alien planet flies past the Earth at 0.866c. We see clocks on that planet running at half the speed of ours, but there is absolutely no requirement for the planet to move slower relative to us as a result of the action taking place upon it being slowed to half speed. For the aliens living on it, it will still feel as if it's moving perfectly normally while we are rushing past it. If it has a moon with it, both will flash past us at ridiculous speed, but the moon will appear to us to orbit its planet in slow motion, and if they're part of a solar system, that entire solar system will appear to be functioning in slow motion too, all of that appearing to behave fully normally to them while we appear to be rushing past them at ridiculous speed while ourselves operating in slow motion (and with our moon is going round us in slow motion, etc.). If that still sounds improbable, you then have to look at how the observations are made and the complications which come into it because of the Doppler effect and the visual complications of the headlights effect.

Imagine two planets flying past each other in opposite directions, the speed of each being measured at 0.866c relative to the other. At the point of closest approach when they look at what's going on on the other planet, they will both see clocks on the other planet ticking at exactly the same rate as on their own planet and not running at half speed, but they will not see that as being the moment of closest approach because of the optical effects.

If two spaceships are moving along side by side but some way apart, light has to travel at an angle to get from one to the other rather than going straight across perpendicular to their direction of travel. If someone on one ship points a laser directly sideways at the other ship, the light from that laser will move within the laser as the laser moves forwards with the ship, and that movement of the laser sends the light out at a different angle from the one the laser is pointing in. When the light is received at the other ship, a camera or eye collecting it will also be moving and will therefore determine that the light has come from directly sideways, even though it actually came from some way behind. This tells us something important about what happens with our two planets example, because the way the light is received will make it appear to have come from much further ahead than its actual source, and that means the whole planet will appear to be further ahead than it actually is. As a consequence, at the point when the people on each planet actually see the other planet as being directly to the side (90 degrees away from their direction of travel), they will then see each other running in slow motion, their clocks producing half as many ticks as the clocks on their own planet, but it's the Doppler effect that is causing the observed slowing and the clocks on the two planets are actually ticking at the same rate.

It's different if one planet is stationary and the other is moving past at 0.866c (rather than both moving at 0.433c in opposite directions) because in this case the clocks on one planet really are running slow, ticking half as often as the clocks on the stationary planet. However, things still look the same to the people on the planets as they observe the other planet - what changes is the point where they see themselves as being at their closest to the other planet. At the point of closest approach, observers on the stationary planet will see the action on the other planet running at half speed, and this time they're seeing the truth of what's going on. But they can't know their planet is stationary, so they don't know if they're being fooled by optical effects and if the real point of closest approach occurred earlier.

Things look different again when you work with diagrams. With the reference-frame camera program that I'm writing (nearly finished, though it won't work on Timey's phone - minium screen size requirements are more in the Netbook computer range), you don't have any Doppler effects getting in the way because you're always looking at the "God view" where all the delays in seeing the action are removed, but what then happens is that which ever frame you set it to view events from, all clocks moving through that frame are slowed in proportion to how quickly they're moving through it. If you follow the travelling twin (in the twins paradox) by setting the camera to the frame he's at rest in during the first leg of his trip, you will see the clock of the stay-at-home twin run slow, and the same applies to the return leg of his trip, and yet the stay-at-home clock will rack up more ticks by the time the twins are reunited - this is possible because at the point when the travelling twin changes direction and we switch the frame we're using to analyse his trip, the stay-at-home clock jumps forwards in time and we completely miss a massive chunk of the action. The travelling twin doesn't miss the action in that way because he's seeing it all, but he's seeing it with the Doppler effect spacing out the ticks on the away leg and then cramming masses of them together on the return leg. With the "god view" of the diagrams (which can be played through as video), we see less of the action because we jump past a lot of it at the turning point where we change frame.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #152 on: 28/08/2016 01:18:50 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.

You are making a very pertinent point. Well done!

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #153 on: 28/08/2016 01:36:32 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.
That's not what I said in the slightest.

If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #154 on: 28/08/2016 01:51:18 »
I don't think I'll have time to post replies to all posts today, and as I'm going through them in inverse-crank order it means PhysBang's going to get a day off.

Hi Timey,

The speed associated with a length contraction 'should' be indicative in the 'length' of its associated dilated second.

It is if you have a way of calculating it, but it isn't clear that you do. What do your proportions represent if they aren't relating time dilation and length contraction to speed? You can't just be relating time-dilation to length contraction because the values are the same (or reciprocals of each other, depending on how you want to use them) and there is therefore no need for your proportions to do any conversion.

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Why include a graph line for the related speed?  It would be simple enough to include by tagging each line representing the length of a second with a label stating its time dilated related speed of motion.  But what point?  There would be vastly more point to including info of the gravity field that a rocket travelling at relativist speeds would be obliged to encounter.

So do the proportions relate time dilation and length contraction to gravity in some way? I have no idea how to calculate these gravity fields that rockets encounter in deep space while moving at relativistic speed, so you're taking things a long way beyond my knowledge of the subject.

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If you have paid attention - which you haven't...

I need to know what things represent before I can get my head round them. You have proportions, and I don't understand what the proportions are. Are they just giving you fractions such as 1/2, 1/4, etc.? If so, why do you need the diagram to generate these fractions when you can just pick them out of the air more easily without the diagram? The diagram's only of use for something if the sideways aspect of it tells you something, so I want to know what it tells you. If the 20th line gives you the fraction 1/2, for example, what does the 20 represent? If it doesn't represent anything, why do you need the diagram to give you the 1/2 when you can just pluck it out of the air instead whenever you want a half?

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It's just that you are entirely conditioned to view the fact of a length contraction as being caused by speed of motion, (although physics has no idea why this should occur)...

Physics does have ideas as to why it should occur. If you accelerate a rocket from rest to 0.866c by shooting a laser at its rear end, it will take you a certain amount of energy to get it to that speed. If you start out at 0.866c though and do this though, the rocket will only be accelerated up from 0.866c to 0.99c (which is clearly not twice as fast as 0.886 - there is no possibility of it moving at 1.7x the speed of light). As you add more energy to the rocket, there is more energy in the rocket that itself needs to be accelerated, and that's the "relativistic mass". If we then imagine a moon orbiting a planet with the planet racing through space at 0.866c, how does the moon behave? It goes round in an elliptical orbit, length-contracted in the direction of travel of the planet, and this happens because of the way the energy is acting - the moon's forwards speed (at the point of its orbit where it's moving fastest) is much lower than you might expect because a lot of the energy becomes tied up as relativistic mass instead of a higher forward speed. Length contraction of orbits is thus driven by this impossibility of things moving faster than the speed of light and the extra energy that objects have to carry as they get closer to it. How it also causes length contraction in small things, I don't know, but we don't altogether know what electrons are doing as they operate around the nucleus of an atom, but it's easy to imagine the same issue applying to them when they move forwards relative to the nucleus, thereby length contracting the atom and allowing atoms to sit closer together in their direction of travel.

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...and this system I am proposing further defines the situation as being that speed of motion causes dilated seconds - and that dilated seconds are causing the appearance of length contraction, when observed from a reference frame of seconds that are differently dilated.

But you don't appear to have any way to link the amount of dilation to speeds other than using someone else's theory to do so.

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...But before I leave you to argue in length and breadth with the realm defender as would seem you're preference, can you tell me by how much a second 'is' dilated, (relative to a standard second), to cause a length to contract to half its length?

The realm I'm defending is the observed universe and our measurements of it, these being independent of theory but being the things which a theory needs to account for. If you don't believe the measurements of experiments and want to create a theory of some other universe that no one can access to measure, then that's great, but it's not my field. I've already told you the relationship between length contraction and time dilation - there is no conversion required unless you want to work with the reciprocal. Length contraction to 0.5 times the rest length means that clocks will also tick 0.5 times as often as at rest. The increase in "relativistic mass" (if you ever want it as well) is the reciprocal of that, meaning you divide 0.5 into 1 to get 2.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #155 on: 28/08/2016 02:17:46 »
If you don't believe the measurements of experiments and want to create a theory of some other universe that no one can access to measure, then that's great, but it's not my field.
Sadly, it's exactly your field, since that is what the LET demands: a system of measurements that can never be identified and thus never used to make measurements.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #156 on: 28/08/2016 02:55:35 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.
That's not what I said in the slightest.

If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.
So basically you are saying that the occupants of the rocket are not moving in slow motion, they just look as though they are from the observation reference frame...

So how do you tell what speed the rocket is moving at?

How do you know that its not moving in slow motion?

If the occupants are not really moving in slow motion, how can one say the length of the rocket is really contracted?

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #157 on: 28/08/2016 04:33:55 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.
That's not what I said in the slightest.

If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.
So basically you are saying that the occupants of the rocket are not moving in slow motion, they just look as though they are from the observation reference frame...

So how do you tell what speed the rocket is moving at?

How do you know that its not moving in slow motion?

If the occupants are not really moving in slow motion, how can one say the length of the rocket is really contracted?

The question you need to ask yourself is, "How would I find out what the accepted answer is to this conundrum?" When you find the answer come back and tell us.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #158 on: 28/08/2016 11:08:30 »
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on my earlier comment:

"If the occupants of a rocket are observed to be moving about their tasks in slow motion due to time dilation, the rocket must also be moving in slow motion. If the rocket is moving in slow motion it cannot be travelling at the speed causing the time dilation.
There is no way to avoid this contradiction"
Yeah, that's just wrong. The motion of the rocket is stipulated, it is the physical events "within" the rocket that appear to be slowed. If the "rocket" was just a pocket watch, the entire watch would be moving at the stipulated speed, it is just the motion of the hands and gears of the watch that change.
Lol - if I say potato...aye!

To stipulate that objects experiencing speed are time dilated relative to the stationary frame, and to then say that only the occupants are experiencing the time dilation and that the rocket that is moving with the occupants does not experience the time dilation is both illogical and entirety contradictory.
That's not what I said in the slightest.

If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.
So basically you are saying that the occupants of the rocket are not moving in slow motion, they just look as though they are from the observation reference frame...

So how do you tell what speed the rocket is moving at?

How do you know that its not moving in slow motion?

If the occupants are not really moving in slow motion, how can one say the length of the rocket is really contracted?

The question you need to ask yourself is, "How would I find out what the accepted answer is to this conundrum?" When you find the answer come back and tell us.
I'm not asking him these questions because I do not know the answers.

Frame A cannot know what speed frame B is travelling at, and frame B wouldn't know if they were moving in slow motion.  As far as frame B is concerned nothing has changed, but if the time they are experiencing is slow, then their speed per second is a speed per slower second and frame B's rocket and occupants are moving in slow motion.

The word stipulated is the key.  Stipulated by whom?  Not by frame A, not by frame B, but by an observer who ***hasn't got a reference frame***, and deals with Newtonian time, that's who.

Referring to Newtonian time when calculating time dilation is an illogicality and constitutes another contradiction...

So... The solution:

David - I was referring to physbang as being the defender of the realm, not you.  You are a challenger of the realm IMO...

...And thanks - you have caused me to realise the maths for observational time frame dependency are simplicity itself.   To calculate a length contraction of 50%, the dilated second of that reference frame  will have twenty 100 000 microsecond value time frames in relation to the standards second ten time frames of same value.  Divide 10 time frames by 20 and this will divide each time frame into 2 equal parts, giving us a figure of 0.5, or half.  The standard second will only view half of the time frames of the second that is dilated by the speed of 0.866c.
The maths, I think (scratches head) are just a case of dividing the shorter second by the longer second.

10/15=2.5. Length contraction = quarter...and so on.

So to coin a "naked scientists" phrase:
"What do you think?"

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Offline puppypower

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #159 on: 28/08/2016 11:46:08 »
There are preferred distances. For example, the diameter of a proton or the bond length of the hydrogen molecule is the same in all references. The laws of physics are the same in all references, therefore these need to be same in all references. The universal red shift is inferred by changes in the wavelength of energy, stemming from atomic emissions; same atomic sizes. Energy changes between references but matter does not. What we see; energy, may not reflect that which is; matter.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #160 on: 28/08/2016 14:20:09 »
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If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.
So basically you are saying that the occupants of the rocket are not moving in slow motion, they just look as though they are from the observation reference frame...
No, again, you are simply not reading what I write and substituting your own imagination.

If a rocket ship is moving at extremely high speed, x units/units, in frame A, then:
1) it is moving through space at x units/units
2) the physical systems of the rocketship are time dilated relative to what they would be at rest

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So how do you tell what speed the rocket is moving at?
In this case, the speed was given. In general, the speed is determined by what two clocks in a given frame would read when the ship passes by.

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How do you know that its not moving in slow motion?
I don't know that. Rather, I know the reverse because of the principles of SR. Again, we can look at what clocks read at given events.

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If the occupants are not really moving in slow motion, how can one say the length of the rocket is really contracted?
By looking at the distance between events when the ship passes by at certain times as given by clocks.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #161 on: 28/08/2016 14:35:34 »
Timey you have the uncanny ability to deflect learning opportunities. Maybe that is inverted learning.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #162 on: 28/08/2016 15:49:22 »
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If you state that, in frame A, the rocket has speed x, then that's the speed in frame A. Time dilation applies when we speak of events in some other frame and then convert back to frame A. Note that in the frame that is co-moving with the rocket, the rocket is moving at speed 0.
So basically you are saying that the occupants of the rocket are not moving in slow motion, they just look as though they are from the observation reference frame...
No, again, you are simply not reading what I write and substituting your own imagination.

If a rocket ship is moving at extremely high speed, x units/units, in frame A, then:
1) it is moving through space at x units/units
2) the physical systems of the rocketship are time dilated relative to what they would be at rest

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So how do you tell what speed the rocket is moving at?
In this case, the speed was given. In general, the speed is determined by what two clocks in a given frame would read when the ship passes by.

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How do you know that its not moving in slow motion?
I don't know that. Rather, I know the reverse because of the principles of SR. Again, we can look at what clocks read at given events.

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If the occupants are not really moving in slow motion, how can one say the length of the rocket is really contracted?
By looking at the distance between events when the ship passes by at certain times as given by clocks.

Are you making a distinction between the frame the rocket is in and the rocket itself? *

If so then it is the rocket that is the factor that is experiencing the speed, not the frame it is in!!!

Clearly the physical mechanisms of the rocket operating slower will physically result in a slower speed, but this aside for the mo.

I can comprehend what may physically cause the fact of a rocket experiencing an 'actual' length contraction in atmosphere, but not in the vacuum of space.

Are you considering this length contraction to be actual, or just perceived from the observing frame?

If actual then:
What causes the length contracted rocket in the vacuum of space to be physically length contracted?

And if you are using distance as a measure, are these distances constant?

And what about these other clocks you are using?  Where are they?  And how do you know what time dilation they are experiencing?

Clearly under the remit of SR and GR one cannot pin anything to any location with any certainty.  Hence there being no preferred frame.

If that is good enough for you physbang, then fair enough, but its not good enough for me, nor rather a lot of physicists who are currently working to unite quantum and gravity.

The general consensus, despite the costly attempts of String Theory, is that GR and SR are the best we have so far.  I don't think anyone here disagrees with this, certainly not me... but I do think that a better description of our universe can be achieved, but only by challenging the status quo.

This is 'New Theories' board of the forum.  Can we not juggle things around a little to see how they would work as such?

* (The frame the rocket is moving through is an interesting point as, in my model, it will be experiencing Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation.  Where I have described vertical lines drawn across a page of different lengths that cause the shape of the straight sides of a house with shallow sloped roof and inverted shallow sloped roof at bottom, now place 2 masses of earths mass at each side and you have a visual description of how Vikki Ramsay time dilation dilates in the weaker gravity field.)

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #163 on: 28/08/2016 16:09:45 »
Timey you have the uncanny ability to deflect learning opportunities. Maybe that is inverted learning.

I really do think that as a moderator you should give explanation of such comments...

What have I not learned this time? ...or have you misinterpreted again?

And would this be inverted comprehension?

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #164 on: 28/08/2016 17:03:55 »
Are you making a distinction between the frame the rocket is in and the rocket itself? *
Of course. The rocket is in every frame! Objects are not frames, frames are systems of coordinates required to make descriptions in physics.

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If so then it is the rocket that is the factor that is experiencing the speed, not the frame it is in!!!
Speed is a property assigned to objects. When we speak of frames, we also speak of speed, but, properly, we refer to the way that the origin (and other points) of one frame has a certain relationship to the origin of another frame.

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Clearly the physical mechanisms of the rocket operating slower will physically result in a slower speed, but this aside for the mo.
No. The speed is something that is set in a given frame. We then point out that this speed, once set, has an influence on the physical systems (or subsystems) that are at that given speed.

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I can comprehend what may physically cause the fact of a rocket experiencing an 'actual' length contraction in atmosphere, but not in the vacuum of space.
OK. But length contraction has to do with how events are arranged and how electromagnetic forces propagate, not with resistance forces or friction relative to motion.

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Are you considering this length contraction to be actual, or just perceived from the observing frame?
It is an actual effect.

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If actual then:
What causes the length contracted rocket in the vacuum of space to be physically length contracted?
There are a number of things that contribute. The most important is the time when we expect parts of the rocket to be in certain locations space. But you can think of how the electromagnetic forces that otherwise separate the parts of the rocket behave at that speed.

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And if you are using distance as a measure, are these distances constant?
By the definition of a frame, the distances between constant points of space are constant.

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And what about these other clocks you are using?  Where are they?  And how do you know what time dilation they are experiencing?
They are ideal clocks. See http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #165 on: 28/08/2016 17:52:30 »
Are you making a distinction between the frame the rocket is in and the rocket itself? *
Of course. The rocket is in every frame! Objects are not frames, frames are systems of coordinates required to make descriptions in physics.

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If so then it is the rocket that is the factor that is experiencing the speed, not the frame it is in!!!
Speed is a property assigned to objects. When we speak of frames, we also speak of speed, but, properly, we refer to the way that the origin (and other points) of one frame has a certain relationship to the origin of another frame.

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Clearly the physical mechanisms of the rocket operating slower will physically result in a slower speed, but this aside for the mo.
No. The speed is something that is set in a given frame. We then point out that this speed, once set, has an influence on the physical systems (or subsystems) that are at that given speed.

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I can comprehend what may physically cause the fact of a rocket experiencing an 'actual' length contraction in atmosphere, but not in the vacuum of space.
OK. But length contraction has to do with how events are arranged and how electromagnetic forces propagate, not with resistance forces or friction relative to motion.

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Are you considering this length contraction to be actual, or just perceived from the observing frame?
It is an actual effect.

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If actual then:
What causes the length contracted rocket in the vacuum of space to be physically length contracted?
There are a number of things that contribute. The most important is the time when we expect parts of the rocket to be in certain locations space. But you can think of how the electromagnetic forces that otherwise separate the parts of the rocket behave at that speed.

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And if you are using distance as a measure, are these distances constant?
By the definition of a frame, the distances between constant points of space are constant.

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And what about these other clocks you are using?  Where are they?  And how do you know what time dilation they are experiencing?
They are ideal clocks. See http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
OK - I am in fact familiar with all that you mention.  I've read extensively on GR and SR, including the for's and against's...

Now we can look at an alternative means to the same observations.  The reason for doing so is because this alternate reason of a phenomenon of observational time frame dependency not only gives physical reason for length contraction observations, but when translated to the remit of gravitational time dilation, (both GR and my proposed additional Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation), it becomes interesting when related back to the uncertainty principle and Bekenstien Hawking temperature entropy conundrum regarding black holes...

This being because it makes explanation of all 3 phenomenon - and having these phenomenon explained under this remit leads to a fully described cyclic universe that finds its beginnings and ends of cycles within the black hole phenomenon without relying on any unobserved phenomenon to balance the books.

If this doesn't stir your curiosity in the slightest, then I just don't know what's the matter you!

You mention that distances are held constant, but this is not reflected in the concept that galaxies receding away from us at faster than the speed of light are doing so because space is expanding...  Nor does it reflect the fact that the experience of the rocket is that it is not itself that is contracting but the frame its travelling through that is doing so.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #166 on: 28/08/2016 18:25:09 »
OK - I am in fact familiar with all that you mention.  I've read extensively on GR and SR, including the for's and against's...
And yet you seem to, again and again, deny the basics.

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If this doesn't stir your curiosity in the slightest, then I just don't know what's the matter you!
If you could marshal any measurement evidence, I might be interested. Otherwise, no.

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You mention that distances are held constant, but this is not reflected in the concept that galaxies receding away from us at faster than the speed of light are doing so because space is expanding...
But we're talking about SR, not GR! The "expansion of space" is a phenomenon on GR.

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  Nor does it reflect the fact that the experience of the rocket is that it is not itself that is contracting but the frame its travelling through that is doing so.
Actually, we can only understand this difference if we have some constant measurement of distance within each frame. That's what a system of coordinates is.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #167 on: 28/08/2016 18:55:12 »
Timey you have the uncanny ability to deflect learning opportunities. Maybe that is inverted learning.

I really do think that as a moderator you should give explanation of such comments...

What have I not learned this time? ...or have you misinterpreted again?

And would this be inverted comprehension?

In pseudo mathematical terms.

L(subject) = learn subject
L^-1(subject) = forget subject

C(subject) = comprehend subject
C^-1(subject) = ? This function does not appear to have an inverse.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #168 on: 28/08/2016 19:31:19 »
OK - I am in fact familiar with all that you mention.  I've read extensively on GR and SR, including the for's and against's...
And yet you seem to, again and again, deny the basics.

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If this doesn't stir your curiosity in the slightest, then I just don't know what's the matter you!
If you could marshal any measurement evidence, I might be interested. Otherwise, no.

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You mention that distances are held constant, but this is not reflected in the concept that galaxies receding away from us at faster than the speed of light are doing so because space is expanding...
But we're talking about SR, not GR! The "expansion of space" is a phenomenon on GR.

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  Nor does it reflect the fact that the experience of the rocket is that it is not itself that is contracting but the frame its travelling through that is doing so.
Actually, we can only understand this difference if we have some constant measurement of distance within each frame. That's what a system of coordinates is.

I'm not denying the basics in the slightest, I'm making an alteration to them.

I'm asking questions that require you think about process, because I want to talk to you about these process in context, not because I'm ignorant of the premise.

There is no point in having a new theory board at this forum if any new idea is met by the answer. That isn't GR, that isn't SR...of course it bloody isn't, its a new idea...

Aren't the Lorentz transformations a feature of the GR field equations?

And isn't a system of coordinates geometry related?

And doesn't it transpire that coordinates aren't helping in determining both the position and velocity of an electron without resorting to probability,  ie: perturbation theory?

So by what 'value' of a second are you measuring the distances in order to understand the difference between a contracted frame and a contracted rocket?

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #169 on: 28/08/2016 20:17:21 »
David - you made comment about my apearing to be using the value of maths from other theories.

Fact is that any physics theory that supersedes a previously held theory must embrace all that works of the theory it supersedes.  Any theory that supersedes GR is going to have to maintain mathematical proportionality to GR.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #170 on: 28/08/2016 22:43:43 »
...And thanks - you have caused me to realise the maths for observational time frame dependency are simplicity itself.   To calculate a length contraction of 50%, the dilated second of that reference frame  will have twenty 100 000 microsecond value time frames in relation to the standards second ten time frames of same value.  Divide 10 time frames by 20 and this will divide each time frame into 2 equal parts, giving us a figure of 0.5, or half.  The standard second will only view half of the time frames of the second that is dilated by the speed of 0.866c.
The maths, I think (scratches head) are just a case of dividing the shorter second by the longer second.

I hope you realise that I just chose line 20 at random to link to the 1/2 figure and so I could easily have said 19 or 13 instead. I don't know which fractions you're reading out of proportions on which lines. That's why it would be useful if you'd supply a list of line numbers and the fractions you're getting from them. If you're associating 0.866c with the line that's giving you the 1/2, what speed are you associating with the line that gives you 1/4?

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10/15=2.5. Length contraction = quarter...and so on.

I'm not sure your arithmetic is sufficiently precise there, but what I'm still trying to find out is how you're getting anything useful from your diagram other than fractions which you could get just as easily by plucking them out of the air. If I find the fraction 1/3 on a fridge magnet, for example, that's a length contraction and time dilation figure which seems to work just as well if I get it from there as if I take it off your diagram, so what information does the diagram provide you with that my fridge door doesn't?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #171 on: 29/08/2016 00:22:02 »
You are literally ignoring the mathematical discipline of geometry.

You are simply arguing about this trivial issue as a diversion to avoid taking on the real issues. I say Newtonian time isn't a dimension, but you appear to want it to be a dimension and want to deny my right to say it isn't a dimension, and this appears to be because you want time to be the time dimesion of SR even when time is being discussed in relation to other theories which don't have a time dimension. We can argue about this till the cows die of old age, but it's just a side issue which really isn't worth the trouble. In my introduction, I simply want to provide people who are new to the subject with something to hang their coat on so that they can get their head around things quickly, and if you have a problem with me correctly stating that Newtonian time isn't a dimension, that's a problem for you to discuss with a psychologist.

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Why do you assume that your half-baked ideas are new? They are not new, they are simply wrong. Your "exam" is as intelligent as asking someone "Did you stop beating your wife?"

I don't know if they're new, but they're certainly important because there is no evidence that they're wrong. If you want to account for how the future is generated out of the past, you need to look at how events progress on different paths and how they are coordinated in such a way that you avoid event-meshing failures (unless you are prepared to tolerate such failures, as you can do with model 1).

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You have this insane idea that because the information in one well-formed frame is guaranteed to give us the information in every other well-formed frame, then the first frame we described things in is the preferred frame. It is not, it is merely the one we used to provide the initial description.

That's you just misunderstanding things, as always. We can't tell which frame is the preferred frame, but what we can do is determine that because the accounts generated from the analysis based on different frames are in conflict with each other, they cannot all be correct, and that means they can't all be valid: there has to be a preferred frame, and the fact that we can't pin down which frame that is does not negate the need for there to be a preferred frame (unless you use model 1 which manages without one at the cost of having to tolerate event-meshing failures).

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You realize that by saying this you are simply denying logical inference? The consistency of SR is not in doubt.

I'm simply refusing to tolerate contradictions in a model. Anyone who does tolerate them is making a mockery of mathematics.

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Again, I will side with every physicist that uses SR in saying that SR does not have a preferred reference frame and describes objects based on the frame of reference one uses. You can stand alone and be "right". Since SR is the basis of technology that makes contemporary computers possible, I feel OK being "wrong" in this way.

Computers work just fine on LET, as does everything else, but if we're pretending that SR is reality, the Eculidean views of things that we get from frames of reference are not the fundamental reality - the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant.

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To be clear, you generate a contradiction only by claiming that one can compare lengths between two frames of reference in some manner independent of frames of reference, in violation of geometry. I will stick with geometry.

The contradictions are very clear if you use mode 2 of my interactive diagram. If you run it till the counter hits 360 and then change frame from A to B and back, you'll see events happening and unhappening as you change frame. That can't be allowed to happen when you're generating the future out of the past. If your mechanism for coordinating the progress of objects along two paths involves running events on one path with their clocks ticking half as often as on the other path, changing frame should result in the behaviour you get with mode 3 (where there's a preferred frame). With mode 2 though, when you change frame you're changing the way the objects moved along the paths, e.g. making the clocks tick twice as much on the first path rather than half as often, and that's not compatible with the original coordination that was being applied. One can be true or the other can be true, but not both at once. Anyone who thinks model 2 is viable is plain irrational, and there's no way of getting away from that.

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And in SR, this is never the case: descriptions depend on frame and one cannot make comparison claims outside of a frame.

Yes you can, and must: the accounts of the action generated from different frames are in conflict as they directly contradict each other. If you ban yourself from comparing them, you are shutting down your rational thinking capability and training yourself to be blind to contradictions.

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To quote someone who should know better, your behavior matches someone like:"they've been taught the basics badly, leading them to imagine that it's okay to mix incompatible versions of the model into one faulty mess which they think works".

No, I'm just trying to deprogram you, but it's hard to achieve this because once people have had their thinking shut down by a religious ideology, they become strongly fixed. You can't see contradictions any more in this context, and I don't know if that can be cured. If clock A is ticking faster than clock B in one frame and clock B is ticking faster than clock A in another frame, that's a direct contradiction which no one rational can fail to recognise. The way to deal with it if you don't want to accept a preferred frame is to shift over to model 1 and decide that neither clock is ticking faster than the other, and with SR they have no right to do so - time must run at full speed on all paths and can't slavishly run slow under the governance of the time of another frame.

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1. "the static block universe model... does not allow a universe to be generated in the first place as it allows no change whatsoever"

No, this model simply establishes a certain metaphysical relationship between events. It does not change the physical relationships: the physical limitations on cause and effect are just as strong in the block universe model, perhaps even stronger.

The static block universe is model zero - it doesn't have running time, so it just exists fully built (both past and future) eternally without ever having been generated in cause-and-event order, which means that there was no causation involved in the patterns of apparent causation written through the "events" in the block.

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SR is compatible with a block universe model, but does not require this model.

Models zero and one require a block universe, but models 2 and 3 don't, although they are compatible with it.

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2. Your "Mode 1" represents SR. Your SR doesn't use the Lorentz transformations, so it is not SR. This is a horrible, obvious lie. The entire scenario of the "diagram" tries to mix the locations from one system of coordinates in another system of coordinates without using the transformations.

Fail. My diagram displays exactly what yours would if you wrote a simulation of it for mode 1, so the horrible, obvious lie is all yours. The paths that the objects follow are exactly the same as on the Spacetime diagrams which are identical to the ones that you would produce if you apply your maths to it correctly, and all I've done with it is allow those objects to follow their paths without their clocks being slowed under the governance of the time of any other path.

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At this point, it is useless to continue further, as anyone who bothered to learn SR would see.

You're running away from it and you're trying to stop other people looking, but they do look and they see the truth of what I'm telling them. They see you lying and they stop and wonder what's going on. This is sad, because we should be allies in search of truth. I want to silence all the cranks and so do you, but there's a bit of crank in everyone and so it's important to look in the mirror every once in a while to check for delusions. What I want to do, if my argument is wrong, is find out where it is wrong and then rework it until it is right, and if that means it ends up supporting SR then that'll be great. However, it doesn't appear to be wrong, and a whole string of SR experts who know the subject considerably better than you have failed to put a dent in it. Model 2 is impossible due to the contradictions, so you've got little choice other than to accept that there's a preferred frame or to shift the other way to a model that doesn't run any clocks slower than others, but when you do that you either get stuck in something static that doesn't allow a universe to be generated at all or you have to deal with event-meshing failures which can only be resolved by bringing in Newtonian time to allow events to change (over Newtonian time) at individual Spacetime locations. If anyone can find a way out of this, I'd be delighted because it would mean that SR is viable even with its dogma about there being no Newtonian time and no preferred frame, but nobody has ever found a way round the problems I've set out. My objections are obvious ones that anyone who's tried to simulate SR in a computer should automatically make, and that means there should be a guide available somewhere as to how to do it without cheating which every SR expert should know about and should be able to link to at the drop of a hat whenever a "crank" questions its ability to work without a preferred frame. I have not found any expert who can provide such a link - all I get from these experts are links to garbage where the programmer has either cheated or has simply not bothered to consider the coordination of events at all (like the Twitter cosmologist).

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You are right, I don't realize this. I suspect that you are lying. If you did speak with people, they were likely cranks that you should know better than to call "experts".

You're probably right about them being cranks, because most of them were pushing the same line as you, although their understanding of the basics of SR was a lot more solid and they didn't spend half their time arguing about the validity of correct diagrams.

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Model 1 is also lorentz invarient,
No, you are simply lying: you combine two frames into one without applying the transformations. I cannot believe you are so incompetent.

How do you imagine my program produces the diagram and changes the way it looks as you change frame? It's doing maths behind the scenes which will produce the same numbers as you would if you wrote a version of the program using your maths. The only difference between my maths and yours is that you use Lorentz's maths where he used Pythagoras while I use my own which relies on trig, but the fundamental thing that we're doing is the same and that's why the numbers produced at the end are identical. Look at the shapes the objects would plot out if they left a line behind them - you'll see that they produce the same Spacetime diagram as the other modes, and the same as the static Spacetime diagrams for Frame A and B further up the page. Draw your own diagram and see if you can get it to look different. Again, the incompetence is yours because you can't see that my diagrams are right, but any expert in SR should be able to see straight away that they are correct.

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You asked for links to animations of SR!

I asked for a link so something that does the job without cheating. You provided a pile of links to cheats, although most of the things there don't even attempt the job at all.

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Thanks, crank, for acting in so dishonest a way as to take away my feelings of pity once I saw your horrible website.  You have had no substantial interaction with "experts" since if you had, at least one would tell you to stop letting your education reform website look like it was designed by a ten-year old.

Why would you pity me on the basis of a website that works fine? It's certainly far from complete, but the parts of it that are there do the job beautifully and enable Unschooled five-year-olds to get through the whole of primary maths in a year if they spend just a few minutes a day working at that. (Sadly, most of them aren't encouraged to do this because the Unschooling movement has a philosophy of not bothering to try to teach anything, leaving many children unable to read until their age is into double figures simply becuase they've never been encouraged to try.) There are plenty of websites out there that look awful to me, and others that look good, but you have to spend time using them before you find out the truth, and often the ones that looked best turn out to be the least helpful because the writer put everything into how it looks and neglected to provide good content. But that's the internet game - attract eyes by providing something pretty and then let people down, or provide quality and go relatively unnoticed. If you try to do both, you're then up against changing fashions and you keep having to redesign the look of everything to appeal to idiots. Well, I don't care about attracting idiots - I'm after the geniuses who don't need to be spoon-fed every step of the way and who are able to think far beyond what they're told to think, although most children could become geniuses if they weren't systematically shut down by the wrong kind of education, the kind that shackles and disables minds.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #172 on: 29/08/2016 00:59:47 »
You are literally ignoring the mathematical discipline of geometry.

You are simply arguing about this trivial issue as a diversion to avoid taking on the real issues. I say Newtonian time isn't a dimension, but you appear to want it to be a dimension and want to deny my right to say it isn't a dimension, and this appears to be because you want time to be the time dimesion of SR even when time is being discussed in relation to other theories which don't have a time dimension. We can argue about this till the cows die of old age, but it's just a side issue which really isn't worth the trouble. In my introduction, I simply want to provide people who are new to the subject with something to hang their coat on so that they can get their head around things quickly, and if you have a problem with me correctly stating that Newtonian time isn't a dimension, that's a problem for you to discuss with a psychologist.
Yeah, I'll discuss with a psychologist how messed up I am by having had a full education on mathematics and physics rather than having self-taught myself part of it and imagining that there is nothing beyond my limited reading.

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I don't know if they're new, but they're certainly important because there is no evidence that they're wrong. If you want to account for how the future is generated out of the past, you need to look at how events progress on different paths and how they are coordinated in such a way that you avoid event-meshing failures (unless you are prepared to tolerate such failures, as you can do with model 1).
Of course there is proof that you are wrong: in any given reference frame, the events of the past determine the events of the future without difficulty. This is something established a century ago.

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That's you just misunderstanding things, as always. We can't tell which frame is the preferred frame, but what we can do is determine that because the accounts generated from the analysis based on different frames are in conflict with each other, they cannot all be correct, and that means they can't all be valid: there has to be a preferred frame, and the fact that we can't pin down which frame that is does not negate the need for there to be a preferred frame (unless you use model 1 which manages without one at the cost of having to tolerate event-meshing failures).
That the frames disagree about event order is not a conflict: we have a guaranteed way to generate the information for any frame from the information from any other frame, the Lorentz transformations. Any frame provides the objective information to determine physical events. You don't seem to acknowledge this.

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Computers work just fine on LET, as does everything else, but if we're pretending that SR is reality, the Eculidean views of things that we get from frames of reference are not the fundamental reality - the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant.
Please provide a source to support this claim.

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The contradictions are very clear if you use mode 2 of my interactive diagram.
Sure, if one uses David Cooper relativity, then there are contradictions. But do not lie to us and claim that David Cooper relativity is SR. Your animations put the events of two different frames in one frame without transformation. It is part of a deception to make false claims about SR. Perhaps you don't even realize this, since you seem to have a number of cognitive difficulties. However, your character is so poor here that it doesn't seem out of line to identify your statements as lies.

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And in SR, this is never the case: descriptions depend on frame and one cannot make comparison claims outside of a frame.

Yes you can, and must: the accounts of the action generated from different frames are in conflict as they directly contradict each other. If you ban yourself from comparing them, you are shutting down your rational thinking capability and training yourself to be blind to contradictions.
So, if we take your crazy scheme, we get contradictions. This is a great day for David Cooper relativity.

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If clock A is ticking faster than clock B in one frame and clock B is ticking faster than clock A in another frame, that's a direct contradiction
In David Cooper relativity, not in SR, where one cannot compare events in different frames without using a transformation to consider the events in the same frame. Just like in Galilean relativity, where one cannot compare different frames without translation. It would be absurd to say that the mast on a ship is never in motion because it is never moving relative to the ship, even in a frame where the ship is in motion.

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The static block universe is model zero - it doesn't have running time, so it just exists fully built (both past and future) eternally without ever having been generated in cause-and-event order, which means that there was no causation involved in the patterns of apparent causation written through the "events" in the block.
And yet every cause-and-effect chain exists in the model. It is a lie to say that these chains do not exist.

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Fail. My diagram displays exactly what yours would if you wrote a simulation of it for mode 1, so the horrible, obvious lie is all yours. The paths that the objects follow are exactly the same as on the Spacetime diagrams which are identical to the ones that you would produce if you apply your maths to it correctly, and all I've done with it is allow those objects to follow their paths without their clocks being slowed under the governance of the time of any other path.
Not true. Sadly obviously not true. Try again.

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This is sad, because we should be allies in search of truth.
No, I do not need self-taught selfish jerks to be on the search for truth. You want to make yourself look better than other people, that's why you "search for truth". Your entire website is a horror: you have absolutely no experience with education, yet you want to revise all of it. You don't want to learn any of the mathematics of physics or of SR, yet you think that without this knowledge you can raise yourself above a century of work of academics and practicing scientists. So, no, please stay away from my search for truth: I don't need your attitude and nor does anyone else.
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You asked for links to animations of SR!

I asked for a link so something that does the job without cheating. You provided a pile of links to cheats, although most of the things there don't even attempt the job at all.
You are a liar.

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Why would you pity me on the basis of a website that works fine?
Because it looks horrible. It is essentially unreadable. It is definitely reflective of the fact that you are self-taught and not really interested in getting to know other people: you simply want to vomit information at them and you expect them to "get it". It gets your intellect across fine.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #173 on: 29/08/2016 01:52:08 »
...And thanks - you have caused me to realise the maths for observational time frame dependency are simplicity itself.   To calculate a length contraction of 50%, the dilated second of that reference frame  will have twenty 100 000 microsecond value time frames in relation to the standards second ten time frames of same value.  Divide 10 time frames by 20 and this will divide each time frame into 2 equal parts, giving us a figure of 0.5, or half.  The standard second will only view half of the time frames of the second that is dilated by the speed of 0.866c.
The maths, I think (scratches head) are just a case of dividing the shorter second by the longer second.

I hope you realise that I just chose line 20 at random to link to the 1/2 figure and so I could easily have said 19 or 13 instead. I don't know which fractions you're reading out of proportions on which lines. That's why it would be useful if you'd supply a list of line numbers and the fractions you're getting from them. If you're associating 0.866c with the line that's giving you the 1/2, what speed are you associating with the line that gives you 1/4?

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10/15=2.5. Length contraction = quarter...and so on.

I'm not sure your arithmetic is sufficiently precise there, but what I'm still trying to find out is how you're getting anything useful from your diagram other than fractions which you could get just as easily by plucking them out of the air. If I find the fraction 1/3 on a fridge magnet, for example, that's a length contraction and time dilation figure which seems to work just as well if I get it from there as if I take it off your diagram, so what information does the diagram provide you with that my fridge door doesn't?

I too just used the 0.866c figure for ease of calculation as you do.

It doesn't matter which line you choose, what matters is by how much longer or shorter a second is.  The lines are representing seconds that are getting longer and then shorter again.  The spaces created on the line's are representing time frames of that second.  The lines are not all equal in length.  The spaces are equal in length for all the lines.

I have stated line 1 and line 49 as being representative of a standard second.  Line 1 and line 49 both have only 10 spaces.  Each space has the value of 100 000 microseconds.
You may make your sloping roof and inverse sloping roof top and bottom of shape as acute or obtuse as you wish and calculate, but as will become clear the ratio of angle is an important factor, and to calculate each and every length of dilated or contracted second relative to the standard second, we will need this angle to be as obtuse as is possible.
You can, having marked your standard second at the original sides of this shape, extend the lines away from the sides of the shape to points to resemble shorter seconds than a standard second, where the shortest second resembles only one microsecond and has a time frame comprised 0.000001, which can be divided further into nanoseconds.

If you divide 0.000001 microsecond value of this second, by the 1000000 microseconds of a standard second, the this will afford very little observation of the reference frames from each other.

If you look at a couple of lines in towards the centre where let's say the line is a second that has the value of 0.0000011 microseconds - dividing 0.000001 by 0.0000011, it becomes clear that this is not going to alter the observation one makes of the other with this miniscule amount of fractions of fractions of time frames missing noticeably.

So you see that this method could be very precise if the proportionality were to be apportioned correctly.

What was interesting to me about what you said was the confirmation that a 50% reduction in length contraction is equal to a 50% dilation of the related time dilation as per current physics.

(Now this may be where you are saying I am being imprecise, I appreciate, and maybe I am.) This told me that 'according to my system' a second dilated by 50% of a standard second is equal to 20 times 100 000 microseconds, this being double the length of a standard second.
(Perhaps I need to calculate this as 15 times 100 000 instead of 20 and realign my shape as bottom of all vertical lines being aligned on a straight horizontal and a more acute point, to now resemble a flat based triangle.)
I'm trying to give the system mathematical proportionality and the angle of slope between the top of line of a standard second and a second dilated by 50% to be established and extended in both directions to indicate dilations that are lesser than a standard second and greater than a 50℅ (relative to a standard second) dilation.

However, before I give in to logic and realign the shape, let's look at the possibilities involved in doubling the length of a standard second for a 50% dilation of a standard second...
If the length of a standard second is increased by 100%, this second is going to be twice as long.  But isn't a second that is twice as long as the standard second 50% of itself longer than the standard second? (this is where maths and I start unravelling)...
In any case, if the rocket was caused to be moving in slow motion due to its speeds affiliated time dilation, then we could say that the affiliated speed of a 50% length contraction appears to the references frame as 0.866c, but could be of a greater speed, remembering that a the speed of light associated with a 100% dilation of a standard second results in a zero observation of the rocket.
If a 50% reduction in length is now associated with a 100% increase in a standard second, then a100% reduction in length associated with the speed of light, is a standard second times 4.

What I'd like this type of ratio to represent is a second dilating via the inverse square law with addition of speed.  Does it?

(Edit: I realise that I need to be clearer: the relationship I'm look for increases the length of a second by the square law as speed, (or energy) is increased, for an observation that decreases by the inverse square law)

If not then changing the shape the vertical lines are aligned to a flat based triangle will give me a direct proportionality of 15 spaces for a 50% dilation of time divided by 10 spaces of the standard second for a 50% reduction in length. ie 50% reduction in observable frames from the reference frame of a standard second.

Again, I'm looking for the ratio of a seconds dilation in relation to speed to follow the (I've edited in the correction) square law as speed is added... for an observation that decreases by the inverse square law.

P.S.  I am unable to view any of your diagrams, simulations, etc, on this crappy phone I'm using at mo, but I can tell physbang that I have read most of the stuff you are saying in books written by physicists who hold degrees in physics and maths, and also positions in well respected universities and institutions. 
« Last Edit: 29/08/2016 15:15:34 by timey »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #174 on: 29/08/2016 11:57:52 »
I just want to state for the record that David Cooper's linking of the trig functions to the gamma functions answers a lot of questions. Never mind frames of reference. This is a biggie. It shows that the gravitational field acts like a medium through which light passes and exactly how the wave is affected. I have been thinking about this since he first posted it. I am working on the mathematics and will post them here.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #175 on: 29/08/2016 21:40:27 »
Yeah, I'll discuss with a psychologist how messed up I am by having had a full education on mathematics and physics rather than having self-taught myself part of it and imagining that there is nothing beyond my limited reading.

I should really put out a warning about psychologists here: be aware that many of them are parasites who mess with their customer's minds in order to go on and on making more money out of them, so don't get sucked in too deep.

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Of course there is proof that you are wrong: in any given reference frame, the events of the past determine the events of the future without difficulty. This is something established a century ago.

You're missing the point again as you have no ability to analyse properly. This is all about the coordination of how events play out on different paths. If you're running time slower on one path than another in order to make events mesh, you can't also be running time more quickly on the former path than on the other. You can either do one or the other, but not both.

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That the frames disagree about event order is not a conflict: we have a guaranteed way to generate the information for any frame from the information from any other frame, the Lorentz transformations. Any frame provides the objective information to determine physical events. You don't seem to acknowledge this.

Yes, you have a guaranteed way to generate useful information, but it's a preferred-frame method of generating that information. The point you're still missing is that the universe actually has to run on rules itself, and if it's going to run on a preferred-frame method, it needs to have a preferred frame.

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Computers work just fine on LET, as does everything else, but if we're pretending that SR is reality, the Eculidean views of things that we get from frames of reference are not the fundamental reality - the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant.
Please provide a source to support this claim.

If you don't believe there's a non-Euclidean reality there which trumps the naive Euclidean views we get of it, how can you believe in SR at all? You're arguing against SR.

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Sure, if one uses David Cooper relativity, then there are contradictions.

And since model 2 is SR, you're acknowledging that SR generates contradictions.

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But do not lie to us and claim that David Cooper relativity is SR.

Well, what on Earth do you imagine SR is if it's different from the models I've provided? All I've done is take SR and show it off using its own rules, forcing it to conform to them instead of cheating by ignoring the issue.

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Your animations...

They're computer simulations.

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...put the events of two different frames in one frame without transformation.

Spectacular fail again! When you change frame with those buttons that offer frame changes, they apply the transformations using maths, and that maths generates the same results as anyone else who simulates the same frame changes.

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It is part of a deception to make false claims about SR.

You're the one making false claims, and it's a shocking hatchet job that you're attempting to carry out. I ask the moderators to allow this to continue though as it is very revealing.

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Perhaps you don't even realize this, since you seem to have a number of cognitive difficulties.

It is always hard for the inferior mind to recognise the superiority of the superior mind, and that's why the world's in such a mess.

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However, your character is so poor here that it doesn't seem out of line to identify your statements as lies.

Anyone who wants to identify the liar here can do the maths and see if my diagrams are correct or not. PhysBang will never provide any of his own for the scenario my interactive diagram covers because if he ever does work through the maths, he'll find that they are fully correct in every detail.

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So, if we take your crazy scheme, we get contradictions. This is a great day for David Cooper relativity.

My "crazy scheme" here is called SR.

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In David Cooper relativity, not in SR, where one cannot compare events in different frames without using a transformation to consider the events in the same frame.

And a fully correct transformation has been used, so your attack is off target. Take your teeth out of your foot.

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Just like in Galilean relativity, where one cannot compare different frames without translation. It would be absurd to say that the mast on a ship is never in motion because it is never moving relative to the ship, even in a frame where the ship is in motion.

An inadequate analogy is an inadequate analogy which sheds no light on the issue.

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And yet every cause-and-effect chain exists in the model. It is a lie to say that these chains do not exist.

In the static block model, the chains are of apparent causation rather than real causation - the block exists eternally by magic having never been generated. As soon as you try to account for the generation of the block in cause-and-effect order, you have to add more laws of physics to the model in order to allow that, at which point it becomes one of the other models.

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Not true. Sadly obviously not true. Try again.

You can say it's not true all you like, and now you've trapped yourself in a position where that's all you can do unless you're prepared to own up to being wrong (and thereby demonstrate that you're not a crank). My diagrams are correct and you cannot create a model of your own to show a better way of doing the job which will make SR work - the models I've provided are as good as it gets.

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No, I do not need self-taught selfish jerks to be on the search for truth. You want to make yourself look better than other people, that's why you "search for truth".

Again I ask moderators to allow PhysBang to go on displaying himself in full. Some day we will all find out who he is, because AGI will be able to trace everyone who hides behind a fake name and it will not hold back from exposing anyone who has been abusive of others.

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Your entire website is a horror: you have absolutely no experience with education, yet you want to revise all of it.

It has the backing of someone who used to work at a very high level in education, in charge of most of the schools in a large region of scotland. He actually insists on paying for the webhosting costs.

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You don't want to learn any of the mathematics of physics or of SR, yet you think that without this knowledge you can raise yourself above a century of work of academics and practicing scientists.

I keep on learning more and more, but this is just a hobby for me, so I don't have as wide a range of physics knowledge as you do, but I certainly know how to apply what I know a lot better than you do, and I seek out knowledge that's directly related to the issue I'm looking into, finding people who know their stuff in order to make sure I've covered the necessary ground. What I'm doing is looking to see if the experts have done the job properly, and pointing at places where it doesn't look as if they have. In some areas I've found incompetence, but in other's I've found things that look like incompetence that turn out not to be. You've seen for yourself that I am able to recognise where I'm wrong and change position on things. With this other issue though (which I had no intention of discussing here), we're dealing with something that's been put to the test continually for many years and which hasn't cracked at all. I'm looking for someone (anyone) who can prise open a crack in it and destroy it, but the argument has proved to be too robust for anyone who's come up against it. Most importantly though, I'm simply asking the awkward questions which everyone should be asking and which the experts are running away from answering.

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So, no, please stay away from my search for truth: I don't need your attitude and nor does anyone else.

You just don't want to be exposed as someone who believes in magic, and like all religious people you have an attitude problem when your irrational beliefs are challenged.

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You are a liar.

No - your interpretation skills are terrible. What I said was,

"Where can I find an animation/simulation that does the job in a way you approve of then? How do they perform the magic trick of avoiding generating contradictions? The reality is that they don't exist, and that's why there are so many people out there who regard SR as fantasy physics."

The key part of the first sentence is "that does the job", and the second sentence spells out exactly what that means. None of those links led to anything that did the job without cheating. There is no program anywhere out there that does the job without cheating because the job is impossible. It is equally impossible for the real universe to do the job without using a preferred frame or having a means of tolerating event-meshing failures.

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Because it looks horrible. It is essentially unreadable. It is definitely reflective of the fact that you are self-taught and not really interested in getting to know other people: you simply want to vomit information at them and you expect them to "get it". It gets your intellect across fine.

Some people like to learn inefficiently by having their time wasted with a hundred tons of sugar for every gram of pill. Other people find it easier just to take a moment to swallow the pill and then get on with other things. As people grow up, they learn to avoid the sugar and go straight for the pill, but it's better to learn that at the start instead of wasting the most important part of your life on empty and fake education which teaches next to nothing for years before suddenly vomiting information over them at a late stage in a highly indigestable and defective form far inferior to anything I'm providing. My aim was simply to prove the principle and hope that other people would get involved to improve the site, adding content and building alternative paths for all of it too so that it would suit different people's learning preferences, but most people are stick-in-the-muds who simply trust the experts who run schools and allow their children to be abused there for over a decade. But you attack me for trying to do something really positive to change the world for the better, and that sums you up nicely.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #176 on: 29/08/2016 23:10:44 »
Test post due to the forum software objecting to a blacklisted term without telling me what it is. Perhaps it's a number, so what I'll do is edit this post repeatedly and keep adding paragraphs until I find out what this blacklisted term is.

It doesn't matter which line you choose, what matters is by how much longer or shorter a second is.  The lines are representing seconds that are getting longer and then shorter again.  The spaces created on the line's are representing time frames of that second.  The lines are not all equal in length.  The spaces are equal in length for all the lines.

At the moment I can't be sure I've got my diagram right because you're not giving me the numbers I need to see if mine matches up. I want to know what proportions you're reading off each line. Without that, it's like trying to wrestle an octopus in the dark - I just can't get a proper picture of it and I can't tell what you're getting from your diagram or how it tells you anything useful.

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So you see that this method could be very precise if the proportionality were to be apportioned correctly.

I can't see it at all at the moment, and I can't see how you're getting anything useful out of the proportions on just 25 lines where one of them can be tied to the speed 0.866c without shedding any light on the speeds that might be tied to any of the others. You need to provide a list of 25 sets of numbers, each set containing the proportion (which I assume comes from two measurements made there, so you could give both of those numbers instead), and any other number that you can generate from that that you think is useful for anything. Without this information, it continues to be a wrestle with an invisible octopode.

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(Now this may be where you are saying I am being imprecise, I appreciate, and maybe I am.)

It was actually your 10/15=2.5 that I had in mind. The old cobblers' division method of adding the 10 and the 15 together before moving the decimal point one place to the left shouldn't be trusted as it doesn't always work.
« Last Edit: 29/08/2016 23:13:31 by David Cooper »

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #177 on: 29/08/2016 23:19:19 »
Right, it seems to be a list of deeply offensive numbers like as 0.99875 that caused the problem, so I can't post them, although that particular one can't have been quite so unacceptable. (By the way, none of them have a six followed by, dare I say it, a nine.) I'll see if I can send them in a PM instead as no one else will need them. Here's the rest of my post then, beyond all those disgusting numbers:-

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If a 50% reduction in length is now associated with a 100% increase in a standard second, then a100% reduction in length associated with the speed of light, is a standard second times 4.

If one second is linked to 100% length and 100% of the length of a standard second, then your 50% length is associated with 200% of the length of a standard second (which is you 100% increase), so a 75% reduction in length is associated with 400% of the length of a standard second, and an 87.5% reduction in length is associated with 800% of the length of a standard second, etc. By the time you've reached a 100% reduction in length, your second is not 4 times longer than a standard second, but is infinitely long.

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What I'd like this type of ratio to represent is a second dilating via the inverse square law with addition of speed.  Does it?

No. Inverse square law will get you nowhere with this. In any case, all we're actually doing here is calculating reciprocals. My previous paragraph can be turned into: 1 is associated with 1 (because 1 = 1/1), 0.5 is associated with 2 (because 0.5 = 1/2, 0.25 is associated with 4 (because 0.25 = 1/4), 0.125 is associated with 8 (becaue 0.125 = 1/8), and 0 is associated with infinity (because 0 = 1/infinity).

Copy out the numbers I've given you in my fourth and fifth paragraphs [edit: now relegated to a PM, or an email if the PM system takes a dislike to them too] and don't lose them. See if you can match them usefully with your diagram, because that's what you need to be able to do if it is to be of any use for your theory.

[Edit: the PM system let all those filthy numbers through without objecting.]
« Last Edit: 29/08/2016 23:29:47 by David Cooper »

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #178 on: 29/08/2016 23:25:28 »
Dispense with the diagram...

Let's approach a different way and just in bits.

You can tell me that a speed of 0.866c causes a length contraction of 50%, and a time dilation of 50%.  The occupants in that rocket are supposed to be moving in a slow motion of half the speed.

What length of a second is this extended length of second, that is associated with a speed of 0.866c, held relative to?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #179 on: 29/08/2016 23:41:36 »
Dispense with the diagram...

Let's approach a different way and just in bits.

You can tell me that a speed of 0.866c causes a length contraction of 50%, and a time dilation of 50%.  The occupants in that rocket are supposed to be moving in a slow motion of half the speed.

What length of a second is this extended length of second, that is associated with a speed of 0.866c, held relative to?

The observer's clock (at rest in that frame of reference) ticks out two seconds while the clock in the rocket only ticks out one second, so you can say that the second in that rocket is twice as long as the second of a clock at rest. I usually work with the relative number of ticks, so I use the exact same number for time changes as for length contraction, but if you want to think in terms of longer seconds being stretched out (which is what "time dilation" refers to), then you should use the reciprocal of the length contraction factor, which means you divide it into 1.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #180 on: 30/08/2016 00:18:52 »
Hey thanks David.  I'll look out for the pm, my email is locked since my phone got smashed and my long forgotten password is written in my phones notes, so I won't be receiving emails.

Given that you have taken the trouble, I'll get my graph paper out and get cracking.  I told you before I haven't actually made a physical diagram of what I'm describing.  I'm just working from what I'm creating in my head, and the basis of another diagram I have physically made that is far more complex describing Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation in relation to mass and distance, rather than SR related time dilation, and speed, in relation to an observational time frame dependency that is proportional to the difference in rate of time between reference frames.

I'll get back to you with my results.

In the meantime concerning the different approach, in answer to your post above:

So let's state the frame of reference where the observers clock ticks at 2 ticks to the rockets 1 tick at speed of 0.866c as having the length of a standard second.

A standard second can be broken down into time frames of subdivisions of a second.  We'll work in divisions of 100 000 microseconds.  A standard second will have ten of these divisions.  The rocket will therefore have 20 divisions.

What I'm doing is standardising the standard second so that we may take measurement of all other time dilations, (GR, SR and VR*), from this standard.

Are we all good so far?

(*Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation)

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Offline Dmitri Martila

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #181 on: 30/08/2016 04:24:15 »
Please let me know what you learn if you choose to study Ehrenfest's paradox. I'd be very interested.
So interested, what we would study some cases together? Nice. Very nice! I have the T.E.Phipps experimental paper, he has photographed the rotating disk to test the Ehrenfest paradox. I have the theoretical explanation of his result.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #182 on: 30/08/2016 14:00:02 »
I should really put out a warning about psychologists here: be aware that many of them are parasites who mess with their customer's minds in order to go on and on making more money out of them, so don't get sucked in too deep.
Now how did I guess that you had experience with psychologists and didn't like what they had to say?

David, you are an angry person who is, briefly, fooling himself that he has found a contradiction in something that has been discussed in incredible depth for over a century. You need some help.

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Of course there is proof that you are wrong: in any given reference frame, the events of the past determine the events of the future without difficulty. This is something established a century ago.

You're missing the point again as you have no ability to analyse properly. This is all about the coordination of how events play out on different paths. If you're running time slower on one path than another in order to make events mesh, you can't also be running time more quickly on the former path than on the other. You can either do one or the other, but not both.
Paths exist in frames of reference, or it is better to say that one cannot describe a path without also given the frame of reference for one's description. There is no problem coordinating paths: this is an artefact of you continuing to make aphyisical comparisons between frames that have no consistent meaning.

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That the frames disagree about event order is not a conflict: we have a guaranteed way to generate the information for any frame from the information from any other frame, the Lorentz transformations. Any frame provides the objective information to determine physical events. You don't seem to acknowledge this.

Yes, you have a guaranteed way to generate useful information, but it's a preferred-frame method of generating that information.
This is just more of your crazy talk. No frame is preferred, each one is equally legitimate and one can start from any state at any time in one frame and evolve a physical system and get the same results (taking the proper translations into account) in any other frame. The only way that you generate a contradiction is by pointing out that different frames assign different coordinates to events. It takes no great intellect to do this and one can equally show that Galilean relativity is incorrect in the same way.

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Computers work just fine on LET, as does everything else, but if we're pretending that SR is reality, the Eculidean views of things that we get from frames of reference are not the fundamental reality - the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant.
Please provide a source to support this claim.

If you don't believe there's a non-Euclidean reality there which trumps the naive Euclidean views we get of it, how can you believe in SR at all? You're arguing against SR.
Please provide a reference to support your claim that in SR, "the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant". You either read this somewhere or you made it up yourself. Did some crank tell you this?

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And since model 2 is SR, you're acknowledging that SR generates contradictions.
None  of your models are SR< since they show multiple locations for events in one frame. That is not SR. So, please, stop lying to us.
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Your animations...

They're computer simulations.
Please. You are creating little animations. They are little cartoon lies that you use to mislead others and yourself.
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Just like in Galilean relativity, where one cannot compare different frames without translation. It would be absurd to say that the mast on a ship is never in motion because it is never moving relative to the ship, even in a frame where the ship is in motion.

An inadequate analogy is an inadequate analogy which sheds no light on the issue.
It is not an analogy: applying your reasoning, Galilean relativity fails because the locations in one frame do not equal the locations in another frame.

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In the static block model, the chains are of apparent causation rather than real causation - the block exists eternally by magic having never been generated. As soon as you try to account for the generation of the block in cause-and-effect order, you have to add more laws of physics to the model in order to allow that, at which point it becomes one of the other models.
People always misunderstand the block universe model like this. Cause and effect does not need to be weaker in the block universe model: the same restrictions on event order can be in place. Some people even argue that cause and effect is stronger in the block universe model. Regardless, this is not required for SR.


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It has the backing of someone who used to work at a very high level in education, in charge of most of the schools in a large region of scotland. He actually insists on paying for the webhosting costs.
I am glad that you have supporters to help you make your way through life, but I worry that their indulgence will do you harm.

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Most importantly though, I'm simply asking the awkward questions which everyone should be asking and which the experts are running away from answering.
Except that they have answered: one can't compare values from different frames without applying the correct translation. Only you refuse to listen.

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"Where can I find an animation/simulation that does the job in a way you approve of then? How do they perform the magic trick of avoiding generating contradictions? The reality is that they don't exist, and that's why there are so many people out there who regard SR as fantasy physics."

The key part of the first sentence is "that does the job", and the second sentence spells out exactly what that means. None of those links led to anything that did the job without cheating. There is no program anywhere out there that does the job without cheating because the job is impossible. It is equally impossible for the real universe to do the job without using a preferred frame or having a means of tolerating event-meshing failures.
So, by "cheating", you mean that they merely applied the transformations and did not try to combine the events of two frames in one frame?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #183 on: 30/08/2016 23:07:00 »
So let's state the frame of reference where the observers clock ticks at 2 ticks to the rockets 1 tick at speed of 0.866c as having the length of a standard second.

A standard second can be broken down into time frames of subdivisions of a second.  We'll work in divisions of 100 000 microseconds.  A standard second will have ten of these divisions.  The rocket will therefore have 20 divisions.

But from the rocket's point of view, its only going to have 10 of your divisions while the "standard second" will look as if it has 20. Can you handle that?

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #184 on: 31/08/2016 00:15:52 »
Now how did I guess that you had experience with psychologists and didn't like what they had to say?

My knowledge of psychologists comes only from what I've heard from others, including someone I know who was talked into hating all his relatives while his shrink systematically undermined him in order to take more and more cash from him. Having initially mentioned them as if they're a positive thing (and I'm sure many of them are), I thought I ought to put the other side for balance.

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David, you are an angry person who is, briefly, fooling himself that he has found a contradiction in something that has been discussed in incredible depth for over a century. You need some help.

Angry? No one who knows me would describe me that way - I certainly am angry about many things, but everyone moral should be. As for needing help, no - there are billions of people out there who need help, and I'm doing everything I can to get it to them.

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Paths exist in frames of reference, or it is better to say that one cannot describe a path without also given the frame of reference for one's description. There is no problem coordinating paths: this is an artefact of you continuing to make aphyisical comparisons between frames that have no consistent meaning.

I'm simply doing what you are unable to do: I'm running through the events of a simple scenario with planets and rockets and looking to see how it's arranged that a rocket can be reunited with its planet when its clocks tick half as many times as clocks on the planet while it's away. That takes coordination, and there are different ways of trying to do it which are not compatible with each other. If you are running events such that the rocket's progress is slowed equally along both legs of its path in order to avoid event-meshing failure at the reunion point, you are using the planet's frame as a preferred frame as a mechanism for how the universe runs and not merely as a way of analysing the events that play out in it (where you don't care about whether you're getting a true account or not). There's a big difference between those two things.

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That the frames disagree about event order is not a conflict: we have a guaranteed way to generate the information for any frame from the information from any other frame, the Lorentz transformations. Any frame provides the objective information to determine physical events. You don't seem to acknowledge this.

This is just more of your crazy talk. No frame is preferred, each one is equally legitimate and one can start from any state at any time in one frame and evolve a physical system and get the same results (taking the proper translations into account) in any other frame.

That doesn't work for the universe. It has to have events play out in one single way and not in an infinite number of different ways that contradict each other. This is totally different from naive analysis by observers who don't care which account of events is true because it makes no difference to them. The universe has to have a true account of what it's doing which doesn't involve contradictions when a frame is changed. Changing the frame you're using to analyse things can't change what's actually happened and what has yet to happen.

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The only way that you generate a contradiction is by pointing out that different frames assign different coordinates to events. It takes no great intellect to do this and one can equally show that Galilean relativity is incorrect in the same way.

If the stay-at-home twin is half way between the parting point and reunion point, his travelling twin may or may not have made the turn, but changing the frame of reference he's using for his analysis isn't going to change what's happened for his twin. The universe has done something definite with the travelling twin and doesn't make and undo his progress past the turning point every time his brother flips the frame in his calculations. The accounts generated by the calculations from different frames are not all valid - only one of them can be true and the rest are wrong. We can't know which account is true, but the universe must have a true answer that it is working with. To claim that all the accounts are valid is ludicrous - it means that every time you change the frame you're using for analysis, the universe unmakes events while hurrying to make others in order to conform with the frame you're now using, and that's magic rather than physics. The only sane way out of that if you don't want to accept that there's a preferred frame is to switch to model one which is Lorentz invariant.

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Please provide a reference to support your claim that in SR, "the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant". You either read this somewhere or you made it up yourself. Did some crank tell you this?

I heard it from a more rational SR expert than the majority who said it was contested, but it is also clear that it is correct. He then introduced me to model zero (the eternal static block). There is a non-Euclidean reality in SR which involves a 4D Spacetime in which there should be no frames of reference because the model is supposed to be Lorentz invariant. The frames of reference only come into play when looking at that non-Euclidean reality it in ways that make it appear Euclidean. If you want the Euclidean geometry to have prededence over the non-Euclidean one, why on Earth are you pushing SR? It appears that you don't trust the non-Euclidean part of the theory.

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Please. You are creating little animations. They are little cartoon lies that you use to mislead others and yourself.

It can generate the diagram for hundreds of different frames of reference and you call it an animation! It's a simulation that crunches all the numbers. If it could be done without all that maths, it would have to run on magic to produce what it shows. You call it lies, but you are foolishly attacking the very thing you're supposedly defending, because the diagram shows you SR.

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It is not an analogy: applying your reasoning, Galilean relativity fails because the locations in one frame do not equal the locations in another frame.

It is only if you have are generating contradictions and assert that all the accounts are true that you have a problem. If you have a preferred frame, the contradictions merely tell you that some accounts are false, and they do this even if you assert that there is no preferred frame (although you can escape into model one).

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People always misunderstand the block universe model like this. Cause and effect does not need to be weaker in the block universe model: the same restrictions on event order can be in place. Some people even argue that cause and effect is stronger in the block universe model. Regardless, this is not required for SR.

Model zero, the static, eternal block universe, has no causality involved in it because it was not generated in cause-and-effect order, or indeed in any order at all as it was never generated in any way but has simply existed forever. Model one though is a different block universe model in which the causation works fine, and model 3 can also work fine as a block universe, so defending model zero on the basis that some block universe models are viable just doesn't hack it. Model zero cannot do causality.

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I am glad that you have supporters to help you make your way through life, but I worry that their indulgence will do you harm.

I have a lot of backing from people who have worked in education and spent their lives trying to improve things only to have others come along behind them to dismantle everything they've built and bin it all. My site is only one part of a much larger project involving a number of other people which is still coming together.

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Except that they have answered: one can't compare values from different frames without applying the correct translation. Only you refuse to listen.

All the correct translations are being done. You try to make out that they aren't, so how come they work? For example, do you imagine that this program works by magic rather than doing proper maths?

http://magicschoolbook.com/science/ref-frame-camera.htm

It isn't complete and doesn't work properly as a result, but click on the first button to load the example shapes, then click on the third and select different frames of reference. Try the values 0.866 and 0 first, then try 0 and 0.866, and then try 0.433 and 0.866. These are the squares form the thought experiment in post #2, and now we can see them from Frames A, A', B and B'. No doubt you'll say it isn't doing proper maths and that it works by magic.

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So, by "cheating", you mean that they merely applied the transformations and did not try to combine the events of two frames in one frame?

I mean that they're using a preferred frame mechanism where the time of that frame governs all the others, making their clocks run slow.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #185 on: 31/08/2016 01:21:12 »
I'm simply doing what you are unable to do: I'm running through the events of a simple scenario with planets and rockets and looking to see how it's arranged that a rocket can be reunited with its planet when its clocks tick half as many times as clocks on the planet while it's away.
You may be trying to do this, but you are using David Cooper relativity, not SR. In SR, these tasks are accomplished relatively straightforwardly by the Lorentz transformations.
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That takes coordination, and there are different ways of trying to do it which are not compatible with each other.
Again, you are free to use whatever mean you wish, but do not lie to use and claim that David Cooper relativity is SR.

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If you are running events such that the rocket's progress is slowed equally along both legs of its path in order to avoid event-meshing failure at the reunion point, you are using the planet's frame as a preferred frame as a mechanism for how the universe runs and not merely as a way of analysing the events that play out in it (where you don't care about whether you're getting a true account or not). There's a big difference between those two things.
In SR, one is free to use whatever frame of reference one wishes; no frame of reference is preferred and all frames produce consistent results (they are identical under transformation). You do not like this but we are not bound by your aesthetic preferences.

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That doesn't work for the universe. It has to have events play out in one single way and not in an infinite number of different ways that contradict each other.
This is your aesthetic preference. The evidence is that the universe doesn't particularly care about event order for spatially separated events.

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Changing the frame you're using to analyse things can't change what's actually happened and what has yet to happen.
Nobody thinks that the choice of reference frame changes the actual world, it only changes the description. You want to prevent people from using certain descriptions without offering any actual alternative.

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If the stay-at-home twin is half way between the parting point and reunion point, his travelling twin may or may not have made the turn, but changing the frame of reference he's using for his analysis isn't going to change what's happened for his twin.
When you say this, you are assuming that there is some absolute frame of reference. According to SR, what has "happened" for a certain even is only those events in the past light cone of that event. This set of past events is invariant and is definitely causally connected to the given event. You are demanding, against all evidence, that there is some preferred reference frame where, even though there is no possible causal connection between two events, there is nonetheless a fact of the matter with regards to their time order. The evidence does not support that there is such a link.

You are just making a circular argument: there must be a preferred reference frame because there is a preferred reference frame.

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Please provide a reference to support your claim that in SR, "the fundamental reality is found in the non-Euclidean space in which the lengths are constant". You either read this somewhere or you made it up yourself. Did some crank tell you this?

I heard it from a more rational SR expert than the majority who said it was contested, but it is also clear that it is correct.
So, you "heard" it. That's exactly the sort of scholarship I expected.

 
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Model zero, the static, eternal block universe, has no causality involved in it because it was not generated in cause-and-effect order,
Saying that over nad over again does not make it true. You are simply repeating that the block universe is a block universe.

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So, by "cheating", you mean that they merely applied the transformations and did not try to combine the events of two frames in one frame?

I mean that they're using a preferred frame mechanism where the time of that frame governs all the others, making their clocks run slow.
Why are you lying about all those links. None of them do that. They all begin with an arbitrary frame, not a preferred frame. If one were to apply an inverse translation, then one could recover the original information from the secondary frame. You just can't understand how people can be content without a preferred reference frame, so you just say that they are using one when they start from an arbitrary frame. Real good reasoning.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #186 on: 31/08/2016 02:44:47 »
So let's state the frame of reference where the observers clock ticks at 2 ticks to the rockets 1 tick at speed of 0.866c as having the length of a standard second.

A standard second can be broken down into time frames of subdivisions of a second.  We'll work in divisions of 100 000 microseconds.  A standard second will have ten of these divisions.  The rocket will therefore have 20 divisions.

But from the rocket's point of view, its only going to have 10 of your divisions while the "standard second" will look as if it has 20. Can you handle that?

Yup, absobloominlutely!

The remit of my concept of observational time frame dependency being proportional to the difference in rate of time relies on this observation.

That each will observe the other as being twice as slow, and half as long, or every other time frame missing.

The rocket does not know how long a second is when it is observing a standard second of our observation point from its own.  It just views relative to it's own experience.  But we know how long a standard second is as per our observation point (or any variable of this standard second), and we also know how long the second on the rocket at speed 0.866c is.

An observation that is proportional to the difference in rate of time will be 50% whether twice as long, or half as long.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #187 on: 31/08/2016 03:05:59 »
This means that you can keep the speed of the rocket relative to a standard second, and move your observation point to a reference frame that is of a different gravity potential and time dilation to the standard second, but at rest relative to earth, (or not for more complexity), and calculate what this length of seconds proportions are in relation to the rockets and the observable  proportions will no longer be 50% each way.

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Offline timey

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #188 on: 31/08/2016 03:25:18 »
...and then, adding in Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation that my time theory proposes, this affords longer seconds in the weaker gravity field that the rocket must travel through.
The rocket will be travelling at mph as per standard second.  As seconds get longer in the locations of space, the percentage of the speed of light that the rocket is travelling at will increase as per reference frame of increasingly longer seconds, and the rockets rate of time will further slow.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #189 on: 01/09/2016 00:06:09 »
You may be trying to do this, but you are using David Cooper relativity, not SR. In SR, these tasks are accomplished relatively straightforwardly by the Lorentz transformations.

You're attacking SR again, because that's what I'm using.

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Again, you are free to use whatever mean you wish, but do not lie to use and claim that David Cooper relativity is SR.

You're the one lying by claiming that it isn't. I'm simply putting SR to the test and finding that it generates contradictions.

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In SR, one is free to use whatever frame of reference one wishes; no frame of reference is preferred and all frames produce consistent results (they are identical under transformation). You do not like this but we are not bound by your aesthetic preferences.

The universe is not free to use a preferred frame mechanism without having a preferred frame.

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This is your aesthetic preference. The evidence is that the universe doesn't particularly care about event order for spatially separated events.

It has nothing to do with aesthetics, but about things confroming to the norms of logic.

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Nobody thinks that the choice of reference frame changes the actual world, it only changes the description. You want to prevent people from using certain descriptions without offering any actual alternative.

I'm simply refusing to be fooled into thinking that the universe can run itself on a preferred frame mechanism without a preferred frame. If it tries to do it with all frames being preferred at once (or even more than one) it is contradicting itself in terms of what it's done and what it's yet to do.

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When you say this, you are assuming that there is some absolute frame of reference. According to SR, what has "happened" for a certain even is only those events in the past light cone of that event. This set of past events is invariant and is definitely causally connected to the given event. You are demanding, against all evidence, that there is some preferred reference frame where, even though there is no possible causal connection between two events, there is nonetheless a fact of the matter with regards to their time order. The evidence does not support that there is such a link.

The universe cannot play such ludicrous games of not knowing how much it has allowed the action to play out on different paths. It has to commit to allowing events to run and pick a rate to run them at, and it is not possible for it to conform to the accounts generated from more than one frame at a time when it does this as they contradict each other. To believe that it can is to believe in magic.

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You are just making a circular argument: there must be a preferred reference frame because there is a preferred reference frame.

Contradictions, therefore something's false. That's how reasoning works and it is not circular. You should not tolerate 2=3.

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So, you "heard" it. That's exactly the sort of scholarship I expected.

From someone a lot better at this stuff than you. But I actually think you may have a point - he may have been wrong. It may be that all models require a preferred frame.
 
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Saying that over nad over again does not make it true. You are simply repeating that the block universe is a block universe.

You keep misrepresenting what I've said - I was talking very specifically about the static, eternal block model in which time doesn't run.

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Why are you lying about all those links. None of them do that. They all begin with an arbitrary frame, not a preferred frame. If one were to apply an inverse translation, then one could recover the original information from the secondary frame. You just can't understand how people can be content without a preferred reference frame, so you just say that they are using one when they start from an arbitrary frame. Real good reasoning.

They are using a preferred frame mechanism regardless of which frame they choose to work with, and that's where they're cheating. If they run the whole thing using a different frame, it will develop events in a way that contradicts the original version. The universe cannot contradict itself in that way, and that's where you're failing to get your head round the problem - you've been brainwashed into ignoring the problem and pretending it isn't there. The universe cannot extend the action on path A more quickly than on path B while also extending the action more quickly on path B than on path A. To believe that it can is to have a mental disability.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #190 on: 01/09/2016 00:17:45 »
And in case anyone missed it, my reference-frame camera software is now online, and although it's not complete, it does enough to justify putting it there now. The bug that was still in it yesterday (due to incompletion - it couldn't handle frames where one vector was negative and the other positive) has gone, so what you see should now be correct in every aspect.

http://magicschoolbook.com/science/ref-frame-camera.htm

Click on the first button to load the example shapes, then click on the third button to select different frames of reference. Try the values 0.866 and 0 first (two vectors to select a new frame), then try 0 and 0.866, and then try 0.433 and 0.866. These are the squares from the thought experiment in post #2, and now we can see them from Frames A, A', B and B'.

I will add more functionality to it over time, such as being able to run time (at the moment all you get is t=0 for everything by the time of the selected frame, though that means you are seeing a range of different Frame A times for different parts of the scene as you change away from Frame A, for the only point that's the same in all frames is the origin, and even that is only the case when t=0). I may also add edges to the shapes and allow objects to be accelerated. I plan to show time passing differently for different objects too, perhaps by using periodic colour changes.

Edit: as of now, the program allows you to run events like video, and the keyboard can be used to control it in a more convenient way than clicking on screen buttons, so "S" is used to stop and start, while "D" is used to change direction (to run things forwards/backwards in time).
« Last Edit: 02/09/2016 17:56:13 by David Cooper »

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Online GoC

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #191 on: 03/09/2016 15:48:18 »
There is only one fixed frame where mass is concerned and that being c. Mass can never reach c so a fixed frame for the position of mass is impossible. Moving 0.4 c in one vector while moving 0.8 c in another vector violates relativity postulates unless they are in opposite directions on the same vector.

Assuming contraction is actually physical rather than just a visual interpretation caused by the finite speed of light is a exercise in futility. The same reason why you cannot measure the position and the speed of an electron applies to all objects in motion. All things are always in motion so there is no fixed frame.

Why would you believe the image produced is the physical description when there is no frame of reference. the faster an object moves the greater the angle of view past 90 degrees. Even when two trains are moving at the same speed there is no 90 degree view. If you just follow the math without understanding the process causing the math your conclusions will remain invalid.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #192 on: 03/09/2016 23:18:57 »
There is only one fixed frame where mass is concerned and that being c. Mass can never reach c so a fixed frame for the position of mass is impossible. Moving 0.4 c in one vector while moving 0.8 c in another vector violates relativity postulates unless they are in opposite directions on the same vector.

The vectors 0.4c east and 0.8c north combine to a speed of 0.8944c (at an angle 26.56 degrees east of north), so where's the problem with that? Matter is fully entitled to move at such a speed and does so with ease in particle accelerators (a search result tells me that 0.99999999c has been achieved in this way), and there's nothing in mathematics that bans you from describing that speed using two vectors (each bigger than the ones you've provided).

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Assuming contraction is actually physical rather than just a visual interpretation caused by the finite speed of light is a exercise in futility. The same reason why you cannot measure the position and the speed of an electron applies to all objects in motion. All things are always in motion so there is no fixed frame.

You're merely parroting assertions. Logic tells you though that the first and third of those assertions are wrong. The universe has to use a preferred frame of reference in order to coordinate events without generating contradictions, just as all computer simulations have to.

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Why would you believe the image produced is the physical description when there is no frame of reference.

You shouldn't believe that the image produced is the correct physical description of the object as you can't know which frame is the preferred frame, but that doesn't remove the need for there to be a preferred frame. The universe has to pick one to use to control events, and if it wants to use another frame to do it at the same time it will produce contradictions in what's happened and what has yet to happen, with the problem getting worse the more frames it tries to use as the base for coordinating the action.

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the faster an object moves the greater the angle of view past 90 degrees. Even when two trains are moving at the same speed there is no 90 degree view. If you just follow the math without understanding the process causing the math your conclusions will remain invalid.

Given that I understand and have fully taken into account all the optical effects with angles changing and not being as they appear to be to observers, you shouldn't be aiming that objection my way at all, quite apart from the fact that it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument I've set out.

The issue is really simple. If I write a computer simulation to deal with how objects behave in relativity with Spacetime, I have three choices: I can use model 3 and have a preferred frame of reference whose time is used to govern time for all other frames, or I can use model 1 and allow time to run at the same rate on all paths (which allows the frame of reference to be changed without changing anything in relation to which events have taken place and which have yet to happen), or I can pretend to use model 2 while actually using model 3 and just assert that it is model 2 even though it isn't. It's exactly the same for the real universe: it can use model 3 as its mechanism or model 1, but it cannot use model 2 because to do so would mean it has to use every frame as a preferred frame and govern all other frames under the time of the preferred frames, and that means having an infinite number of copies of each frame so that events can develop at different rates in each copy depending on which frame they're governed by. It actually means having an infinite number of duplicate universes each with a different preferred frame, all duplicating the same action but with all that action playing out with a different pattern of coordination in each copy of the universe in order to be doing all of them at once, and all this for the sole purpose of backing some monkeys' dogma about there being no preferred frame of reference. Even then it fails though, because each copy of the universe is still using a preferred frame of reference.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #193 on: 04/09/2016 04:51:52 »
Light is the reference frame of space!

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Online GoC

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #194 on: 04/09/2016 16:18:02 »
David,

   I understand your dilemma with SR. I was confused also until I followed Euclidean geometry in all frames. A photon travels the same distance through space at a constant speed. Lets term that a light second and round off to 186,000 miles per second. Whose second? Lights second in lights frame. Now we have to ask whose distance? Lights distance/lights second. Now the confusion starts. When using light and time as a measuring stick between different speeds both the distance of the stick and the to measure the speed of light tick rate of time change in a confounding way to measure the speed of light the same in every frame. Lets take two frames one moving at 1/2 the speed of light and one at rest. Here is the confusion the observer at rest views the 1/2 speed of light object as contracted by 13.3075% which is the Lorentz contraction of 0.866025. Lets look at the Euclidean geometry. A 90 degree view would measure 186,000 length and a 90 degree observer lets say 93,000 length centimeters, miles it does not matter as long as the space distance for each direction are the same. This gives us a right triangle so we can use Pythagoras to measure the actual view. It creates a 30,60,90 triangle. Cos 30 = 0.866025 same as the Lorentz contraction. So we can now understand that we view objects using light as the hypotenuse rather than the leg in differences of speed. The angle of view reduces the objects length by 13.3075% at half the speed of light.

Here there is the question relative to what? A light second and light length in lights frame.

Now lets take the view from the space ship inside the ship going 1/2 the speed of light. Lets look at the light on the ship as Euclidean space from the light frame and lets use the length of the ship to determine the length of your measuring stick. Light starts from the back in the direction of the ship. The light reaches the front by two lengths of the ship. It hits a mirror and returns to the back in 0.66... length of the ship. So relative to a light second and length through space the measuring stick becomes 2.66... in the two way length. We divide by two  and get 1.33.. length relative to Euclidean light length trough space. But wait 0.33... length of space the ship traveled without light or 1/3 the length. So the length of your measuring stick is 2 2/3 - 1/6 because light did not follow in the second direction we get a Euclidean relative to a light second and distance of 2.5 ships length divided by 2 = 1.25 length for the change in your measuring stick.

So your measuring stick is increased by 0.25 total length. Lets look at the light clock. First we have to follow relativity's light being independent of the source. The vector direction of the light wave fires and the mirror moves forward following the same measurements through space so the length of a second in your frame is the same 1.25. 1.25/1.25 = 1. The longer tick rate is confounded with the longer distance of your measuring stick causing you to measure the same speed of light in every frame. This is a increase in the visual length of your measuring stick matching your change in tick rate.

Since the mechanical and light clock remain synchronous in every frame there must be a control mechanism in space that affects both the electron and photon equally suggesting an energy state of space.

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #195 on: 04/09/2016 16:52:58 »
Continuing from above we can never measure our speed through space using light. The ratio between frames is our only reference. Rather than finding a fixed frame we only have a moving frame of the photon as a constant.

Energy of space would suggest a photon is just a wave sphere of vector directions rather than a single particle we describe as a virtual photon. A wave on energy independent of the source is the very definition of a virtual photon.

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #196 on: 04/09/2016 17:26:01 »
Ah GoC! The hypotenuse to measure light. There you have the problem of deflection from a straight line path even moving directly away from a source. How can the path be recovered?

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #197 on: 04/09/2016 19:06:33 »
jeffreyH,

   Depending on what you believe is a photon your understanding of light will change. I suspect light to be a wave on energy particles expanding as a sphere from a light bulb. So any vector will be a straight line of view. The size of the  image will be the inverse square of the distance with the Lorentz contraction.

Any direction the clock is placed in the ship will give the same increased distance for light to travel from perpendicular to the same direction of the ship. This can be proven with synchronization of clocks and Euclidean geometry for travel distance of light. Mechanical clocks stay in synchronization with light clocks in the same frame. Is that a coincidence in every frame or are the two (photons and electrons) controlled by the same energy source.

While you cannot ever recover the same path the same measurement will be recovered in all frames.

There is no stationary frame of value zero relative to motion. The spin motion (energy) of space to propel electrons and photons has the value of c. Electrons travel in a cork screw motion confounded with the vector speed of light wave rippling through the energy of space.

I will need a specific issue in math or mechanics to understand your questioning my math results or mechanics.

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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #198 on: 04/09/2016 22:30:12 »
Hi GoC,

I suspect that we're talking at cross-purposes here. My original question related to something I'd found that appeared to show a way of identifying the preferred frame, but I'd missed the hidden rotation that occurs when something is accelerated one way and then accelerated sideways off that path, and once that is taken into account, the preferred frame remains unidentifiable. That was resolved by page 5 of this thread, and then it moved on into a discussion of another argument after PhysBang read a webpage of mine (that I'd linked to to illustrate a point) and attempted to rubbish it. That page can be found at www.magicschoolbook.com/science/relativity and it makes the argument that SR and GR both depend either on a preferred frame of reference or on Bringing in Newtonian time to work in combination with the time dimension. So, where you're trying to show that the preferred frame can't be detected, there is no need to do so as it is not contested. I questioned it for a short time when I thought there might be a way of pinning it down, but have since "unquestioned" it. That means this thread has served its purpose and provided the answer "no" (or at least, not by the method I had proposed). The remaining issue then is not the one of the thread title, but of whether there has to be a preferred frame of reference, and I have shown that the only models that make it possible for there not to be such a frame require Newtonian time to be added to them to enable them to generate the future out of the past and/or to handle event-meshing failures.

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Re: Can a preferred frame of reference be identified?
« Reply #199 on: 05/09/2016 02:40:55 »
Thanks David I came to the party late.