What time does the rocket arrive at point B?

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Online Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #100 on: 30/08/2016 14:36:49 »
Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?
No.
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion. You can have events in present, future and past in the same inertial reference frame.

Also, there is a problem using the term present.
Take the example of a train travelling from A to B. The passengers all agree it leaves now, at the present time and that when it arrives it is also now, the present time. However, departure and arrival are different events each with a separate position in time and space.
Using now and present in your example is leading to confusion of what are in fact separate events.

Edit: Looking further down your posts I see this

You can clearly see in this diagram that you still observe B in the present although B has moved away because the sight remains ''simultaneous'' between A and B because of the fact the timing remains constant and simultaneous, they always see each other at the same time and each others present.

If you do not agree with this , then where do you consider it is wrong?
No, I do not agree with this.

Simultaneous does not mean instantaneous.

The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2016 14:50:17 by Colin2B »
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #101 on: 30/08/2016 15:58:44 »
Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?
No.
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion. You can have events in present, future and past in the same inertial reference frame.

Also, there is a problem using the term present.
Take the example of a train travelling from A to B. The passengers all agree it leaves now, at the present time and that when it arrives it is also now, the present time. However, departure and arrival are different events each with a separate position in time and space.
Using now and present in your example is leading to confusion of what are in fact separate events.

Edit: Looking further down your posts I see this

You can clearly see in this diagram that you still observe B in the present although B has moved away because the sight remains ''simultaneous'' between A and B because of the fact the timing remains constant and simultaneous, they always see each other at the same time and each others present.

If you do not agree with this , then where do you consider it is wrong?
No, I do not agree with this.

Simultaneous does not mean instantaneous.

The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present.

Quite clearly you are wrong, the present is now

noun
1.
the period of time now occurring.

Quote
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion.

And the relative motion of both A and B is velocity=0 in the opening scenario, you are clearly being intentionally obtuse and stubborn and not even considering what I am saying or avoiding what I am saying.

If you are holding an object in your hand , you are seeing this object in your time frame of reference which is your present and now , yes or no?


Quote
The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present

Yes it does, the distance between two bodies is always equal in either direction . The speed of light is constant between these bodies in either direction and guess what?  It takes the exact same amount of time to travel either direction for the light being emitted or reflected.



« Last Edit: 30/08/2016 16:15:53 by Thebox »

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Online Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #102 on: 30/08/2016 18:16:54 »
Quite clearly you are wrong, the present is now
Yes, the present is now. But you are using it to describe 2 events ( light leaving A and B, and light arriving at A and B) which are separated by time, they cannot both be now.

you are clearly being intentionally obtuse and stubborn and not even considering what I am saying or avoiding what I am saying.
No, I am carefully explaining why I think your interpretation is incorrect. You asked me to do that, you could at least respect it.

If you are holding an object in your hand , you are seeing this object in your time frame of reference which is your present and now , yes or no?
Yes, but if the object moves the time when it was at the first location and the time when it arrived at where it is now are not the same. They cannot both be the present. You are trying to say that the time light leaves A and B is now and so is the time it arrives at the opposite ends, but it takes time to travel, they cannot both be now.

the distance between two bodies is always equal in either direction .
Yes, but it is changing so the time taken for the light to travel changes.

The speed of light is constant between these bodies in either direction and guess what?  It takes the exact same amount of time to travel either direction for the light being emitted or reflected.
Yes, but that does not make the time at each end of its journey 'now'. The start and finish are separate times and events.

None of what I am saying is being obtuse or avoiding, it is just the way things are.

I can see that this is another thing you are never going to understand, and as you arn't going to believe me I'll leave you to try and convince the other forum.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #103 on: 30/08/2016 22:32:32 »
for  you


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #104 on: 30/08/2016 23:24:39 »
a rocket leaves earth and travels for 1 light second at c, according to you it as not left and we see it as it were 1 second ago.

added-  you are not seeing the sun as it were 8 minutes ago, you are seeing the sun as it is, 8 minutes apart from you at c in the same time frame as you.

added - ''YOU'' are making the mistake of thinking distance is the past.


While the Photon travels from the sun to the earth, the sun  and the earth and the Photon all experience the exact same amount of time. If you contracted the length of space between the Sun and Earth , you bring the Sun into our present.  Your misinterpretation really sucks in a big way.



« Last Edit: 31/08/2016 10:14:55 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #105 on: 01/09/2016 13:02:06 »
UNDERSTAND

If you see something now in the present and it moves away from you, time and events are synchronous , at 1 light second away, you are still seeing each other now.

You are not looking into the ''past'' or the ''future'' you are observing everything in the present.


added- 2 objects in a ''void'' , no light, both objects are in the present regardless of light.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 13:20:04 by Thebox »

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #106 on: 01/09/2016 14:01:22 »
UNDERSTAND


What you fail to UNDERSTAND is everything your eye detects is the result of a photon reaching your eye that left it's source sometime in the past. Whether 8 minutes ago, or 13.8 billion years ago from the Big Bang. Even the light reflected from the fellow standing across the street only feet away took "time" to reach your eye. So every thing you see happened in your past whether very far away or something even very near to your eye. And we've all been through this before Mr. Box but you continue to insist that the transmission of sight is instantaneous which it is not. 

So yes Mr. Box, the photon is real and it takes time to reach your eye. And without the application of the photon upon your eyeball, you would see nothing. But then of course Mr. Box, you choose to see only what you want to see anyway so you really don't need the photon do you?

Attempt some UNDERSTANDING yourself.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #107 on: 01/09/2016 14:54:55 »
UNDERSTAND


What you fail to UNDERSTAND is everything your eye detects is the result of a photon reaching your eye that left it's source sometime in the past. Whether 8 minutes ago, or 13.8 billion years ago from the Big Bang. Even the light reflected from the fellow standing across the street only feet away took "time" to reach your eye. So every thing you see happened in your past whether very far away or something even very near to your eye. And we've all been through this before Mr. Box but you continue to insist that the transmission of sight is instantaneous which it is not. 

So yes Mr. Box, the photon is real and it takes time to reach your eye. And without the application of the photon upon your eyeball, you would see nothing. But then of course Mr. Box, you choose to see only what you want to see anyway so you really don't need the photon do you?

Attempt some UNDERSTANDING yourself.

Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with. I.e the sun is in the present while the photon travels in the present to our present, you are clearly confusing distance to be some ''magical'' form of time travel.




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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #108 on: 01/09/2016 15:54:47 »


Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with.
My dear Mr. Box,........when you travel to the store to buy groceries, does it take some time or do you arrive there instantaneously?

The term; "travel" carries with it the notion of movement through time Mr. Box. When you travel, you move from the present into the future. Each moment of time spent in travel changes from one moment in the present to another.

The present only lasts for a fleeting instant Mr. Box and can not define the action of travel. So,.......when you make statements like: "Although something travels it is in the present", you must realize that this "present" you keep talking about is changing from one moment to another and therefore can't remain the same "present" long enough for you to get from A to B while traveling.

It takes time to travel Mr. Box and that requires the movement through a numberless number of "NOWS". Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that it takes time to travel???????
« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 15:57:34 by Ethos_ »
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #109 on: 01/09/2016 16:34:10 »


Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with.
My dear Mr. Box,........when you travel to the store to buy groceries, does it take some time or do you arrive there instantaneously?

The term; "travel" carries with it the notion of movement through time Mr. Box. When you travel, you move from the present into the future. Each moment of time spent in travel changes from one moment in the present to another.

The present only lasts for a fleeting instant Mr. Box and can not define the action of travel. So,.......when you make statements like: "Although something travels it is in the present", you must realize that this "present" you keep talking about is changing from one moment to another and therefore can't remain the same "present" long enough for you to get from A to B while traveling.

It takes time to travel Mr. Box and that requires the movement through a numberless number of "NOWS". Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that it takes time to travel???????

Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #110 on: 01/09/2016 16:46:25 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #111 on: 01/09/2016 16:51:03 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #112 on: 01/09/2016 16:54:16 »
Start here at the beginning diagram.

In this diagram there is two objects, the free space and two objects exist in the present.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #113 on: 01/09/2016 17:00:55 »
Now let us play ''God''

let there be light

the objects are 1 light second apart, can you tell me what both clocks will read when both objects receive the incident ray?

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #114 on: 01/09/2016 17:15:12 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #115 on: 01/09/2016 17:44:40 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 17:54:47 by Thebox »

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #116 on: 01/09/2016 18:10:04 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast
For sight to be infinitely fast, that would require the speed of light to also be. If you can't UNDERSTAND this, discussing the topic with you is a waste of time.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #117 on: 01/09/2016 23:26:29 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.
a) the light from the parts of the tape do reach your eyes at different times.

b) what you "see" is created in your brain, it is not a faithful representation of the world.

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #118 on: 02/09/2016 01:32:27 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

Given light travels 1 cm in 3.3 x 10-11 s, do you really think you could tell the difference?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #119 on: 02/09/2016 10:13:20 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

Given light travels 1 cm in 3.3 x 10-11 s, do you really think you could tell the difference?

It does not make any difference if it were 1m, 1 mile, 10,000 mile, like I see my hand now I also see the sun in the same ''picture''.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #120 on: 02/09/2016 10:15:31 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.
a) the light from the parts of the tape do reach your eyes at different times.

b) what you "see" is created in your brain, it is not a faithful representation of the world.


No, what I see is what I see , it is not a representation , I can clearly see distance and prove it is there, I can see shapes and prove they are there.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #121 on: 02/09/2016 10:17:16 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast
For sight to be infinitely fast, that would require the speed of light to also be. If you can't UNDERSTAND this, discussing the topic with you is a waste of time.

You are basing that on the education you learnt, you are not considering anything outside or other than your subjective ''box'' of education.

Think!


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #122 on: 02/09/2016 10:51:49 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.

« Last Edit: 02/09/2016 10:57:04 by Thebox »

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #123 on: 02/09/2016 14:49:30 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #124 on: 02/09/2016 18:58:34 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?

not necessarily, it depends which direction the aeroplane is falling and if something by chance happens to be in the way.


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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #125 on: 03/09/2016 02:28:12 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?
But you agree that it will hit the ground?

not necessarily, it depends which direction the aeroplane is falling and if something by chance happens to be in the way.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #126 on: 03/09/2016 10:29:08 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?
But you agree that it will hit the ground?

not necessarily, it depends which direction the aeroplane is falling and if something by chance happens to be in the way.

Put it one way, if you were to fire a bullet directly at the earth and the bullet travelled v=c ,  the bullet would miss.   


Do not mistake past geometrical position in being the past.


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #127 on: 04/09/2016 03:58:17 »
Every time I try to sleep and fall asleep , I quickly wake and jump up in a panicked state, anxiety being a key role and feeling my own heart beat , beat.  So in the midst of all this , I thought I would just write something and probably stay awake forever because to be honest, anxiety is quite scary.

A rocket travels from the Earth to the Sun at 9:00:00 am

The rocket has attached one end of a tape measure and the other end is attached to the Earth.

The tape measure is a special tape measure and is marked with light seconds,

As the rocket travels away we can see the tape measure extend,

At 1 second of travel I can see 1 light second of tape measure,

At 2 seconds of travel I can see 2 light seconds of the tape measure.

At 1 light minute of travel I can see 1 light minute of tape measure

At 8 light minutes and 20 seconds I can see 8 light minutes and 20 seconds of tape measure


I see the rocket arrive at the sun at 9:08:20 am

I measured it and that is the result.

 





 




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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #128 on: 04/09/2016 12:19:52 »
If we can not see light in free space then how on earth can we predict a path of a meteor if according to ''you'' we can not see the path?

Also if we say , we see when electromagnetic radiation enters our eyes , it seems different, electromagnetic radiation extends , like a magnet can ''see'' another ''magnet''. Like gravity of one mass can ''see'' the other mass.

So if we are inside magnetic fields, then surely we can observe the whole field at once by some form of  electromagnetic resonance?





« Last Edit: 04/09/2016 12:24:32 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #129 on: 05/09/2016 10:22:01 »
Start from point zero , move away, look  back, you are seeing you and where you come from in the present but you are also seeing your past position,


added- i have to go out

will leave you with this thought


If a photon carried the information that allows us to see, then why does this information become ''dimmer'' when using a dimmer switch?

Are you suggesting the photon weakens some how in this process?  If you was correct I would not see dimmer things because hf is hf after all and should not ''degrade'' just because we release less of them .

So how does the weaker ''signal'' work? 


« Last Edit: 05/09/2016 10:35:06 by Thebox »

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Online Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #130 on: 05/09/2016 14:30:56 »
So how does the weaker ''signal'' work?
Imagine you are standing under a shower and it is dripping one drop at a time, that drop doesn't wet you very much. Turn the shower full on and you will get very wet, but still the individual drops only have a small wetting power.
It's the same with light. Individual photons don't carry much energy, but added together in their millions you can easily see. Turning down the dimmer switch just reduces the numbers, not the energy of each one.
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #131 on: 05/09/2016 17:40:26 »
So how does the weaker ''signal'' work?
Imagine you are standing under a shower and it is dripping one drop at a time, that drop doesn't wet you very much. Turn the shower full on and you will get very wet, but still the individual drops only have a small wetting power.
It's the same with light. Individual photons don't carry much energy, but added together in their millions you can easily see. Turning down the dimmer switch just reduces the numbers, not the energy of each one.

Ok, I am standing in the shower, it is switched off but there is a drip, the drip contains the same mass it had per volume when  it left the collective of the water, the same energy,


the drip enters my eyes hmmmmm, problem.

If the information is contained in the drip, and the drip is the same energy, then the drip should stay bright in the mind.

 





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Online Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #132 on: 05/09/2016 18:31:57 »
, the drip contains the same mass it had per volume when  it left the collective of the water, the same energy,
Yes, the drip has the same mass per unit volume , but not the same energy or mass as the collective as you call it. One person in a football crowd can make a small level of sound, the whole stadium together make a much greater volume.
Not sure what you mean by information, we are talking about brightness, intensity - similar to volume of sound. Violin can make a certain sound level, lots together can make a lot more.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #133 on: 05/09/2016 18:48:12 »
, the drip contains the same mass it had per volume when  it left the collective of the water, the same energy,
Yes, the drip has the same mass per unit volume , but not the same energy or mass as the collective as you call it. One person in a football crowd can make a small level of sound, the whole stadium together make a much greater volume.
Not sure what you mean by information, we are talking about brightness, intensity - similar to volume of sound. Violin can make a certain sound level, lots together can make a lot more.


You only see light that enters your eyes, i.e Photons, brightness and intensity as you call it are only perceived pictures in your brain (according to present information).


I have tried to explain how you see light that as not entered your eyes, i.e brightness and intensity , which was instantly rejected.


According to ''you'' a Photon travels from the Sun and takes approx 8 minutes and 20 seconds to reach Earth and enter your eyes that allows you to see the Sun. The information and picture you perceive is a bright sun, the photon containing the information of brightness.  However when we receive a Photon from a shadow the information is perceived ''dull'',  the information not as ''energised'' as the sun information, the ''picture'' is much duller .


Can you comprehend the thought that we see light that as not entered our eyes which  is ''connected'' to light that as entered our eyes?




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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #134 on: 11/09/2016 11:51:40 »
''You'' want me to believe that if I looked through a tube , the far end of the tube is not in my present. When clearly the  near end of the tube is in the present and the far end of the tube exists in my present.





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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #135 on: 11/09/2016 14:14:42 »
''You'' want me to believe that if I looked through a tube , the far end of the tube is not in my present.
No, that is not what everyone is saying, it is your interpretation.

When it is 1200 on Earth it is 1200 on the sun, however when you look at the sun you see it as it was (about 8mins ago) not as it is now.
The same is true for the tube, but the time difference is much smaller.
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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #136 on: 11/09/2016 15:18:55 »
''You'' want me to believe that if I looked through a tube , the far end of the tube is not in my present.
No, that is not what everyone is saying, it is your interpretation.

When it is 1200 on Earth it is 1200 on the sun, however when you look at the sun you see it as it was (about 8mins ago) not as it is now.
The same is true for the tube, but the time difference is much smaller.


Just no, how absurd, the tube has not been defined in length, the tube is clearly in the same time frame as you, you see the far end of the tube the same time you see the near end of the tube in the same time frame and same reference frame.

I could extend this tube all the way to the sun making a coupling, it would show the Sun moves relative with the tube and is at the end of the tube always.

The point you miss, is the very fact that you can see through the entirety of the tube.

Do you deny the free space in the tube is  see through like a sheet of glass? 


Do you deny that when we see a ''congestion'' of light, this allows us to see spectral colour that can be measured to be in its exact location relative to the observer?

It would be poor logic to even try to deny this .


The temporal distortion of the permeability of mass interacting with light  is the only light you see, the event happens in it's exact location.





« Last Edit: 11/09/2016 15:55:19 by Thebox »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #137 on: 11/09/2016 23:21:41 »
 
Do you deny that when we see a ''congestion'' of light, this allows us to see spectral colour that can be measured to be in its exact location relative to the observer?

It would be poor logic to even try to deny this .
Yes I deny it, and it is perfectly good logic to do so.
You are back to gibberish rather than sense so I'm not even going to try and discuss the errors you are making until you come back to earth.
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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #138 on: 11/09/2016 23:29:12 »
 
Do you deny that when we see a ''congestion'' of light, this allows us to see spectral colour that can be measured to be in its exact location relative to the observer?

It would be poor logic to even try to deny this .
Yes I deny it, and it is perfectly good logic to do so.
You are back to gibberish rather than sense so I'm not even going to try and discuss the errors you are making until you come back to earth.

There is no errors in my thinking, I can think quite well, I also can measure using a basic tape measure, you are denying things that are just so obvious.

There is no gibberish, it is plain English.


P.s it is interesting you deny you can see through a tube, notice a tube is not a rod, a tube is  hollow and has a volume of space.

« Last Edit: 11/09/2016 23:40:37 by Thebox »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #139 on: 12/09/2016 01:39:20 »
Nobody is denying that a tube can be seen through.


What is denied, is that the light from the near end of the tube and from the far end of the tube, reaching your eye at the "same time" left its respective ends at the "same time".

Perfectly simple and logical.

You may be seeing both the near end and far end in one "scene", but that in itself doesn't prove that the light giving you that "scene" left the ends of the tube at the "same time".

You can extend your tube all the way to the Sun: the light from the Sun will be taking 8 minutes to travel down the tube to get to you. Light from the end of the tube near your eye will get to you in far less than a second.

You've not yet shown how this standard understanding is wrong.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #140 on: 12/09/2016 04:25:47 »
Nobody is denying that a tube can be seen through.


What is denied, is that the light from the near end of the tube and from the far end of the tube, reaching your eye at the "same time" left its respective ends at the "same time".

Perfectly simple and logical.

You may be seeing both the near end and far end in one "scene", but that in itself doesn't prove that the light giving you that "scene" left the ends of the tube at the "same time".

You can extend your tube all the way to the Sun: the light from the Sun will be taking 8 minutes to travel down the tube to get to you. Light from the end of the tube near your eye will get to you in far less than a second.

You've not yet shown how this standard understanding is wrong.
When you say and agree you can see through the tube, you are admitting you can see through space, I. E the start point and end point of the tube simultaneously and at the same time being seen,   a rocket travelling up the tube is seen for the entire journey, because the very fact the space is see through. If you cannot understand how useless your photon is after that , then I suggest you are illogical.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #141 on: 12/09/2016 06:05:16 »
When you say and agree you can see through the tube, you are admitting you can see through space, I. E the start point and end point of the tube simultaneously and at the same time being seen,   ...

No. That's your silly literal interpretation of a figure of speech.

Seeing "through the tube", in reality, simply means light from a distant object can pass through the tube and reach our eyes.

Quote
... a rocket travelling up the tube is seen for the entire journey, because the very fact the space is see through. If you cannot understand how useless your photon is after that , then I suggest you are illogical.

What's illogical is your idea that we can see things "instantly" even though they are distant, and light takes time to travel.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #142 on: 12/09/2016 07:40:01 »
When you say and agree you can see through the tube, you are admitting you can see through space, I. E the start point and end point of the tube simultaneously and at the same time being seen,   ...

No. That's your silly literal interpretation of a figure of speech.

Seeing "through the tube", in reality, simply means light from a distant object can pass through the tube and reach our eyes.

Quote
... a rocket travelling up the tube is seen for the entire journey, because the very fact the space is see through. If you cannot understand how useless your photon is after that , then I suggest you are illogical.

What's illogical is your idea that we can see things "instantly" even though they are distant, and light takes time to travel.


There is nothing illogical about and it is not me playing on words.  Objectively we see through space, subjectively the Photons exist that travel from A to B.

The problem is Einstein had these poor thoughts and related most of relativity to beams of light which are never actually observed and are subjective of the imagination.

Yes you can argue we could look at Einsteins beam of light in the sense of a laser passing through a smoke filled medium, however a laser would be observer effect and not reality or the natural spherical  nature of light.

An observer stands on a platform , a street lamp emits a flash of light, i.e a beam, the observer watches the beam travel past them, a train passes at the near speed of light, the observer on a train measures the light to be slower because of their relative speed.  However the speed is constant regardless of motion.

However , no observer , observes a beam of light.

You can't say we see the end of tube at the same time has the near of the tube and then give a cock and bull explanation of Photons and beams, contradictory to the objective of what we observe has a whole.

I noticed you ignored the rocket travelling up the tube.


It leaves Earth at 9:00:00  , we see it arrive at 9:08:00 , we do not see it arrive at 9:16:00 We observe the rocket every step of the way.

Quite clearly insane and contradictory to reality.


Things are reflected by light, light is not reflected.

p.s there is not a single piece of evidence that shows light is reflected from objects into your eyes.


It is without thought the answer that we see through the tube, that is objective by very definition.


added- I am now looking through my tube at a satellite, the satellite is not transmitting, at exactly 9:00:00 am the satellite sends a signal, I can not see this signal, but while the signal travels I can always see the satellite.

That is how ludicrous your ideas are.





« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 08:35:10 by Thebox »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #143 on: 12/09/2016 08:39:13 »
...

I noticed you ignored the rocket travelling up the tube.

It leaves Earth at 9:00:00  , we see it arrive at 9:08:00 , we do not see it arrive at 9:16:00 We observe the rocket every step of the way.

Quite clearly insane and contradictory to reality.
...

As well as your usual swapping of objective and subjective, that's all just your usual assertion that you are correct, without evidence.

And no, I wasn't ignoring the rocket in the tube, I was commenting on a specific part of your recent post.

It's actually very logical and self-consistent that we see the rockets 9:08 arrival, at 9:16, as that's how long it takes for the image of its arrival to get to us. Light has a speed, and it's not infinite. It doesn't matter that we watch the rocket the whole way; all that means is that as it gets further away, the longer the delay is for us seeing an event occurring on that rocket. e.g. when it's half way to the Sun, the delay is 4 minutes. All perfectly in order.

Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.

You clearly don't like this, as it contradicts your personal views, but you have no evidence that it's wrong.

Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #144 on: 12/09/2016 08:54:44 »
...

I noticed you ignored the rocket travelling up the tube.

It leaves Earth at 9:00:00  , we see it arrive at 9:08:00 , we do not see it arrive at 9:16:00 We observe the rocket every step of the way.

Quite clearly insane and contradictory to reality.
...

As well as your usual swapping of objective and subjective, that's all just your usual assertion that you are correct, without evidence.

And no, I wasn't ignoring the rocket in the tube, I was commenting on a specific part of your recent post.

It's actually very logical and self-consistent that we see the rockets 9:08 arrival, at 9:16, as that's how long it takes for the image of its arrival to get to us. Light has a speed, and it's not infinite. It doesn't matter that we watch the rocket the whole way; all that means is that as it gets further away, the longer the delay is for us seeing an event occurring on that rocket. e.g. when it's half way to the Sun, the delay is 4 minutes. All perfectly in order.

Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.

You clearly don't like this, as it contradicts your personal views, but you have no evidence that it's wrong.

Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?

Firstly objective means without personal feelings or influence, there is no personal feeling in admitting we can see through the tube.

Secondly science has not proved light reflects off objects into your eyes, contradictory is that a laser does not reflect of a wall, it only reflects of a mirror or shiny like surface.
You want  proof? shine a laser through a smoke filled room at a wall, no reflective ray unless a mirror is used.

 ''Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.''

Yes we need light to enter our eyes to see, but once we open our eyes in light we can see everything in the ''scene'' at once.


''Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?''

It is not illogical that we can see through space. It is not illogical to consider a Photon does not contain the information of distance. It is logical we can observe and measure distance and see an entire distance, it is logical that I can measure a red apple in its exact location a distance away from me.
It is logical I can measure a shadow to be in its exact position,

It trumps science because science is full of subjective fairy tales. it trumps science because the very fact that we see through space, we see the Sun , we see light of the sun at the sun, the sun also permeates light to highlight other objects, however we can see through the light it is not opaque.

It trumps science because we don't actually see photons, we see only clear/invisible.

p.s you dont see the rocket arriving at 9:16 ,





 







« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 09:01:49 by Thebox »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #145 on: 12/09/2016 09:45:24 »
Firstly objective means without personal feelings or influence, there is no personal feeling in admitting we can see through the tube.

What's objective is there is light hitting your eye: Other people can verify that experience. And, importantly because our eyes and our brains can be fooled by any number of illusions, we can build detectors that measure the light.

It's your interpretation of what all that means that is subjective.

Quote
Secondly science has not proved light reflects off objects into your eyes, ...

Your personal disbelief and rejection of science does not prove that science to be wrong. What's your experiment to prove current science wrong?

Quote
... contradictory is that a laser does not reflect of a wall, it only reflects of a mirror or shiny like surface.
You want  proof? shine a laser through a smoke filled room at a wall, no reflective ray unless a mirror is used. ...

Rubbish. You can shine a laser at a wall, and see a red spot (if that's the laser used) on that wall. Clearly the laser light is reflecting off that wall, to your eyes. If you hit a mirror, you might get the laser reflected as a beam; but a normal wall will provide a diffuse reflection - the laser light is spread around, reflecting (absorbed, re-emmitted) in all directions.

You've never seen a movie where the target of a sniper sees a red dot on themselves? Are those people wearing mirrors?

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''Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.''

Yes we need light to enter our eyes to see, but once we open our eyes in light we can see everything in the ''scene'' at once.

Science has shown that it's light itself that we see by. You are inventing some additional "other way" that we see, that somehow involves light plus ... plus ... plus ... what!? Magic?

Quote
''Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?''

It is not illogical that we can see through space. It is not illogical to consider a Photon does not contain the information of distance.

It is illogical to think that seeing things across space somehow means our awareness is itelf across that space, witnessing things as they occur.

I've never said a photon contains "the information of distance". That's not needed.

Quote
It is logical we can observe and measure distance and see an entire distance, it is logical that I can measure a red apple in its exact location a distance away from me.
It is logical I can measure a shadow to be in its exact position,

That in itself is close to OK.

Quote
It trumps science because science is full of subjective fairy tales. it trumps science because the very fact that we see through space, we see the Sun , we see light of the sun at the sun, the sun also permeates light to highlight other objects, however we can see through the light it is not opaque.

None of that shows that you're seeing things "instantly".

Quote
It trumps science because we don't actually see photons, we see only clear/invisible.

We don't perceive individual photons; to see even a single white pixel on your computer screen requires many photons to leave that pixel and travel to your eye.

Do you also disbelieve in electricity because you can't see individual electrons?

Quote
p.s you dont see the rocket arriving at 9:16 ,

That's an assertion based on nothing more than your desire to hold on to your ignorance.

Next you'll say something childish like "don't tell me I'm wrong because I know I'm right" - oh wait, you already did that in your blog.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #146 on: 12/09/2016 14:47:27 »
What's objective is there is light hitting your eye: Other people can verify that experience. And, importantly because our eyes and our brains can be fooled by any number of illusions, we can build detectors that measure the light.

Where do I say that light that does not enter your eye to begin with?  I have not said  it doesn't

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It's your interpretation of what all that means that is subjective.

NO it's not, it is to definition exactly.






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Your personal disbelief and rejection of science does not prove that science to be wrong. What's your experiment to prove current science wrong?

The space is admitted see through..


Quote
Rubbish. You can shine a laser at a wall, and see a red spot (if that's the laser used) on that wall. Clearly the laser light is reflecting off that wall, to your eyes. If you hit a mirror, you might get the laser reflected as a beam; but a normal wall will provide a diffuse reflection - the laser light is spread around, reflecting (absorbed, re-emmitted) in all directions.

Clearly the laser has no reflective beam from a brick wall, you would like by magic for the light to be reflecting and travelling across the space to your eyes, come up with garbage about diffusion, none of this is observed in reality. Every single DJ in the world will tell you there is no  beam of the laser reflected from a wall.
You are quite clearly making it up and it is not what happens in reality.




Quote
You've never seen a movie where the target of a sniper sees a red dot on themselves? Are those people wearing mirrors?

Now your being daft, the dot on a sniper is a laser dot from another sniper, not a reflection.

Quote
''Science - via actual experiments - has shown us that sight works via light, and light has a finite speed.''

I have not disagreed with that.



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Science has shown that it's light itself that we see by. You are inventing some additional "other way" that we see, that somehow involves light plus ... plus ... plus ... what!? Magic?

Yes we see by the light, why do you keep  mentioning this when I am not arguing about t hat?

Quote
''Your concept of immediate sight across any distance is what's illogical; you have no real explanation for how that could possibly work. How does your fairy story trump the actual science?''

Which part about see through do you not follow?



Quote
It is illogical to think that seeing things across space somehow means our awareness is itelf across that space, witnessing things as they occur.

Hellooo!   it's is see through, we can see through space and see things, we can see things happen, predict things to  happen because space is see through. Only you are  being illogical about see through.

Quote
I've never said a photon contains "the information of distance". That's not needed.

But you see distance, you see light that has not entered your eyes in that distance, the space is not dark like a shadow is it now.



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That in itself is close to OK.

So think my friend, think about the measurement. and what it means in relationship to how we see.



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None of that shows that you're seeing things "instantly".

see through, see through. see through,



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We don't perceive individual photons; to see even a single white pixel on your computer screen requires many photons to leave that pixel and travel to your eye.

We dont see individual photons full period, ''they'' are made up and of the imagination.

Quote
Do you also disbelieve in electricity because you can't see individual electrons?

I am not discussing electricity.


Quote
That's an assertion based on nothing more than your desire to hold on to your ignorance.

Next you'll say something childish like "don't tell me I'm wrong because I know I'm right" - oh wait, you already did that in your blog.

NO, it is not an assertion, you can see the rocket all the way because the space is see through, do you have problems understanding what see through means?

It means there is no obstruction to sight, so if there is no obstruction you can see things, you see things that are not obstructed at the same time you see other things that are not obstructed.

You don't have any valid argument and neither does science. All's you are doing is trying to persuade people the ''good book'' is correct. The ''good book' is mostly made up, it is garbage, and you seem to worship this garbage as if actual facts and never consider beyond this book, rather strange that education has subjected you all in this way.




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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #147 on: 12/09/2016 15:35:38 »
''You'' all fail to recognise that we are ''submerged'' in light, the light goes on past us. We observe a quanta whole , we do not observe individual photons , we observe this whole relatively as not moving, a stationary reference frame. we observe things that move relative to this frame.


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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #148 on: 12/09/2016 20:22:39 »
Clearly the laser has no reflective beam from a brick wall, you would like by magic for the light to be reflecting and travelling across the space to your eyes, come up with garbage about diffusion, none of this is observed in reality. Every single DJ in the world will tell you there is no  beam of the laser reflected from a wall.
You are quite clearly making it up and it is not what happens in reality.

You make no sense at all. Are you truly saying that if you shine a laser at a brick wall you wouldn't/couldn't see a red (or other) dot on the wall where the laser hits it?

Have you ever seen someone use a laser pointer? To highlight things on a screen? To play with their cat or dog?

Quote from: pzkpfw
You've never seen a movie where the target of a sniper sees a red dot on themselves? Are those people wearing mirrors?

Now your being daft, the dot on a sniper is a laser dot from another sniper, not a reflection.

Eh? I said the target of a sniper sees a dot on themselves.

And what do you think is causing that dot? The laser aimed by the sniper. The laser hits the target and, because they are wearing clothes, not mirrors, a diffuse reflection is seen.

Even if it was a dot on a sniper from another sniper, as you said, it's still a dot - what's causing that dot? Magic?

Yes we see by the light, why do you keep  mentioning this when I am not arguing about t hat?

Because light has a limited speed, but you think sight somehow works by some other - instant - mechanism (magic).

Which part about see through do you not follow?

"See through" simply means light can travel through an area. It has nothing to do with your magic instant sight.

Hellooo!   it's is see through, we can see through space and see things, we can see things happen, predict things to  happen because space is see through. Only you are  being illogical about see through.

No, you are inventing some new mechanism for sight, when we already know about light and its limited speed.

Nothing about the knowledge of the limited speed of light contradicts any normal understanding of "see through".

The air between my eyes and my monitors is "see through", so light can travel from them to me, and I can read this web page. My hand is not "see through", so if I hold it up between my eyes and my monitors I can't read this web page. None of that is contradicted by knowing that light takes time to travel, so some time (less than I can possibly notice, because it's too close) will elapse between that light leaving the monitor and reaching my eyes.

But you see distance, you see light that has not entered your eyes in that distance, the space is not dark like a shadow is it now.

See ... there's your magic. You say we see light that has not entered our eyes! How? Telepathy?

Rubbish, what we see is light that has entered our eyes. From the sum total of what we see, we are able to judge distances. Our brains are accustomed, for example, to using relative size; so if we see trees, we know the ones taking up more of our field of view are closer. (That's just one of the cues to our ability to judge distance). This is why it's quite easy to create optical illusions.

see through, see through. see through,

Not instant. Not instant. Not instant.

Please don't be so childish.

We dont see individual photons full period, ''they'' are made up and of the imagination.

Did you stamp your feet as you wrote that?

I am not discussing electricity.

Why do you always accuse others of avoiding questions?

Can you see individual electrons?

NO, it is not an assertion, you can see the rocket all the way because the space is see through, do you have problems understanding what see through means?

It's you who badly uses "see through". You can't support your assertions by other made-up assertions ...

It means there is no obstruction to sight, so if there is no obstruction you can see things, you see things that are not obstructed at the same time you see other things that are not obstructed.

These two things do not follow.

Unobstructed sight has nothing to do with allowing that sight to occur instantly across distance.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 21:56:26 by pzkpfw »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #149 on: 12/09/2016 23:01:09 »


You make no sense at all. Are you truly saying that if you shine a laser at a brick wall you wouldn't/couldn't see a red (or other) dot on the wall where the laser hits it?

Of course you see a red dot on the wall but you do  not see a reflective beam if you add smoke to the room, you only see the incident ray of the beam. Fact.






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Because light has a limited speed, but you think sight somehow works by some other - instant - mechanism (magic).


No magic involved it is see through






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The air between my eyes and my monitors is "see through", so light can travel from them to me, and I can read this web page. My hand is not "see through", so if I hold it up between my eyes and my monitors I can't read this web page. None of that is contradicted by knowing that light takes time to travel, so some time (less than I can possibly notice, because it's too close) will elapse between that light leaving the monitor and reaching my eyes.


Now you are understanding , the air is see through, the light passing through that air that is not in your eyes, not entered your eyes is see through, you do not see light in space because it is not compressing.   



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See ... there's your magic. You say we see light that has not entered our eyes! How? Telepathy?

Connectivity

Now go back and consider measuring where a shadow is, consider if  you did not see light in space it would be dark space like a shadow.