What time does the rocket arrive at point B?

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Offline Thebox

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What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« on: 15/08/2016 09:26:50 »
A Rocket leaves point (A) at travelling at c and 12am emitting a light beam onto point (A) travelling to point (B) expanding the length of the beam, the rocket takes 8 minutes to arrive at point (B), what time is the rocket seen arriving at point (B)?
« Last Edit: 15/08/2016 09:30:45 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #1 on: 19/08/2016 06:28:21 »
After a lengthy consideration with no replies, I get 12.08 regardless what ''you'' say because the very simple diagram shows this without uncertainty.

P.s this is not a new theory it is a query, I want to accept the present version and move on, but I can't move on without questioning what I feel is an inaccuracy.

I have a problem because of this -

A length of free space=X
 
x= 299 792 458 m
 
A Photon travels back and forth along X,
 
 
 
This ''clock'' is constant .
 
 
 +vx=c=1s
 
-vx=c=1s
 
 difference t=0


The only possible thing that can slow this ''clock'' down is if we add permeability.

added- I removed all 4 dimensional reference points, leaving the 1 dimensional whole of free space. (the 5th dimension and ''stationary'' reference frame of ''invisible'').


added- also my problem is this


If you ''stood'' at one end of X and I ''stood'' the other, and we simultaneously turn on our flashlights, we see each other at the same time, using the same above calculation.

added- also there is the problem of that I can see the entire clear distance of free space between objects and can ''see'' that ''invisible'' photons occupy this space that are not in my eyes. i.e 1ft away from my eyes I clearly observe there is Photons in this free space, I can clearly distinguish shadow at a distance where there is less Photons/light. I clearly observe this very writing of ''darkness'' the absence of photons in its exact geometrical position.
From this writing to my eyes I observe the free space is ''full'' of invisible Photons that have not entered my eyes. I observe spectral content 400nm-700nm seemingly in its exact location relative to free space.  I observe free space to be stationary because we cant observe things that are invisible to have motion although it is apparent that the invisible is in motion. 


added- and need I remind you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre













« Last Edit: 19/08/2016 07:56:50 by Thebox »

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Offline phyti

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #2 on: 19/08/2016 19:47:16 »
Perhaps no one replies because they have debated this scenario before without any constructive results.
The time of arrival has different answers, depending on which event and which clock.
With A and B clocks synchronized,
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.
B sees rocket arrival at 12:08.
The rocket clock reads 12:00 at arrival.

If the rocket made a return trip to A, would the clocks unwind to make the time=0?

 

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #3 on: 19/08/2016 21:54:49 »

A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This bit is wrong but nobody is listening to me when I am showing why it is wrong. They expect me to accept this when it is wrong. 


It is enough to drive me insane and it is so simple why it is wrong but nobody seems to understand and keep replying with 12:16 when it is 12:08.


Lets us take this in really short steps, it may takes several days.


Let us have point A

A rocket is ''stationary'' at point (A). Velocity=0

You are an observer in the control tower, you can see the rocket. 

Photons reflect off the rocket and travel distance X to your eyes , do you agree with this?

 


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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #4 on: 20/08/2016 04:20:51 »

A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.

This bit is wrong but nobody is listening to me when I am showing why it is wrong. They expect me to accept this when it is wrong. 

It is enough to drive me insane and it is so simple why it is wrong but nobody seems to understand and keep replying with 12:16 when it is 12:08.
No, it is not wrong and any attempt to prove otherwise is a new theory - or more properly an 'it can't be true'

Lets us take this in really short steps, it may takes several days.
Let's not. To do so would insult the intelligence of most primary school children.

One last try on a subject we have been over many times.
Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202.
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #5 on: 20/08/2016 08:08:31 »

A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.

This bit is wrong but nobody is listening to me when I am showing why it is wrong. They expect me to accept this when it is wrong. 

It is enough to drive me insane and it is so simple why it is wrong but nobody seems to understand and keep replying with 12:16 when it is 12:08.
No, it is not wrong and any attempt to prove otherwise is a new theory - or more properly an 'it can't be true'

Lets us take this in really short steps, it may takes several days.
Let's not. To do so would insult the intelligence of most primary school children.

One last try on a subject we have been over many times.
Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202.
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.

NO, I will not accept that and live with that because it is in error and none of you are objective enough to actually listen. It is not a new theory and neither is it a can't be true.  It is the student questioning what you are teaching him. Would you really want a student to be taught incorrectly and accept false information?

I am telling you it is wrong, I can show why it is wrong yet you all keep insisting it is correct when it clearly is not.

I tell you what Colin, discuss what I have said, if I don't show I am correct, then I will leave the forum forever.

That is how sure I am the information you are telling me is at fault.


Let us have point A

A rocket is ''stationary'' at point (A). Velocity=0

You are an observer in the control tower, you can see the rocket. 

Photons reflect off the rocket and travel distance X to your eyes , do you agree with this?


Let us have point A, at point A is a stationary rocket, velocity=0

Captain Stewart sits in the cockpit looking towards the tower (point B) where he can see you.

Photons reflect off you travelling distance X to Captain Stewart's eyes , do you agree with this?

let us say distance X = 1 light second

from A to B the light takes 1 light second to reach the tower

from B to A the light takes 1 light second to reach Captain Stewart, do you agree with this?

Lets us be in a night time situation, the Sun rises at 6 am, at 6.08 am the first Photons of the day reflect off A and B at the same time.

photon (A) travels to (B) while simultaneously photon (B) travels to (A)

The tower (point B) and Captain Stewart (point A) both simultaneously receive their first sight of each other at 6.08 and 1 light second.


Do you agree with this?














« Last Edit: 20/08/2016 09:05:26 by Thebox »

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Offline evan_au

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #6 on: 21/08/2016 05:29:41 »
Quote from: TheBox
vx=c=1s
This bit of pseudo-mathematical mash is confused because the author has not tried to compare the units (in which case he would have seen that it is wrong, although perhaps not realized why).
- You can't say  "c=1s", because the units of c are meters per second (a velocity), while the units of 1 second are time. If the units don't match on each side of the "=", the numbers are nonsense.
- "vx=c", is even more confusing because I could not see "v" defined anywhere. Assuming the normal convention that v is a velocity, the units of v are meters per second (like c), and the units of x are meters. The units on the left are seconds which don't match the meters per second on the right side of the "=" (although it does match the seconds on the last "="). If the units don't match, the numbers are nonsense.

You calculate the propagation time t (in seconds) as velocity v (in meters per second) x distance (in meters).
Because we are talking about light pulses in a vacuum, the velocity = c (in meters per second).

Corrected:
t = x/v = x/c = 1 second
Units: Time = (meters)/(meters per second) = (seconds)

Quote from: TheBox
+vx=c=1s
 
-vx=c=1s
 
 difference t=0
Reading between the lines, this seems to be saying that light takes 1 second to propagate in one direction and that light takes -1 second to propagate in the opposite direction, for a round-trip time of zero seconds. If you achieve this, you will win a Nobel Prize; unfortunately, it is a fallacy.

The next bit of confusion seems to be around "+"/"-". This seems to be using velocity or distance as a vector; vectors can have a direction, which can be "+", "-" depending on how you are using it. Just like using units consistently is essential, it is essential to use the direction of a vector consistently, or the equation is a nonsense.

If you have never studied vectors at university level, I suggest you just stick to scalars.

It takes 1 second for the light to travel in one direction, and it takes another second for the light to travel in the other direction, for a round-trip time of 2 seconds. Definitely not 0 seconds!

Note: I might have misread these equations; if so, please explain what was intended.

Correction: I tried to analyse the units, and mangled it badly - apologies
« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 22:27:06 by evan_au »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #7 on: 21/08/2016 07:56:39 »
Quote from: TheBox
vx=c=1s
This bit of pseudo-mathematical mash is confused because the author has not tried to compare the units (in which case he would have seen that it is wrong, although perhaps not realized why).
- You can't say  "c=1s", because the units of c are meters per second (a velocity), while the units of 1 second are time. If the units don't match on each side of the "=", the numbers are nonsense.
- "vx=c", is even more confusing because I could not see "v" defined anywhere. Assuming the normal convention that v is a velocity, the units of v are meters per second (like c), and the units of x are meters. The units on the left are seconds which don't match the meters per second on the right side of the "=" (although it does match the seconds on the last "="). If the units don't match, the numbers are nonsense.

You calculate the propagation time t (in seconds) as velocity v (in meters per second) x distance (in meters).
Because we are talking about light pulses in a vacuum, the velocity = c (in meters per second).

t = v*x = c*x = 1 second
Units: Time = (meters per second) * (meters) = (seconds)

Quote from: TheBox
+vx=c=1s
 
-vx=c=1s
 
 difference t=0
Reading between the lines, this seems to be saying that light takes 1 second to propagate in one direction and that light takes -1 second to propagate in the opposite direction, for a round-trip time of zero seconds. If you achieve this, you will win a Nobel Prize; unfortunately, it is a fallacy.

The next bit of confusion seems to be around "+"/"-". This seems to be using velocity or distance as a vector; vectors can have a direction, which can be "+", "-" depending on how you are using it. Just like using units consistently is essential, it is essential to use the direction of a vector consistently, or the equation is a nonsense.

If you have never studied vectors at university level, I suggest you just stick to scalars.

It takes 1 second for the light to travel in one direction, and it takes another second for the light to travel in the other direction, for a round-trip time of 2 seconds. Definitely not 0 seconds!

Note: I might have misread these equations; if so, please explain what was intended.

Can you remember the time we did

-ve and +ve ?

I thought v in this instant was vector and e was just any direction?

So i put vx representing vector x.

vx=c

c representing the speed of light

and 1 second for the time it take light to travel vx.

vx=c=1.s

Well anyway , the reason you have not  understood because you have misinterpreted the 0 .


It is sight related and my diagram and explanation is very correct.


A photon takes 8 minutes to arrive at (B)

A second photon simultaneously also takes 8 minutes to reach (A)

Between A and B is 1 light second of travel for the light.

The observers A and B see each other at the exact same time.

The Photon leaves the sun at 6am
it arrives at 6.08am
it is reflected at 6.08am
it travels 1 second and is received by Captain Stewart's eyes at 6.08am and 1 light second

The second Photon is exactly the same that enters your eyes from  the reflection off the rocket. You see captain Stewart simultaneously.

The last diagram I did simply shows this to be true.


added- not a round trip, individual trips, a=+ve  b=+ve













« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 08:49:02 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #8 on: 21/08/2016 08:47:33 »
Can you remember the time we did

-ve and +ve ?

I thought v in this instant was vector and e was just any direction?
-ve and +ve are abbreviations for the words negative and positive

The Photon leaves the sun at 6am
it arrives at 6.08am
it is reflected at 6.08am
it travels 1 second and is received by Captain Stewart's eyes at 6.08am and 1 light second

The second Photon is exactly the same that enters your eyes from  the reflection off the rocket. You see captain Stewart simultaneously.
This is not the same question/situation as the original one. Let's deal with one question at a time.
In the original question it doesn't matter how long it takes for the light to travel from the sun, just how long it takes for light reflected from the rocket - when it arrives at B - to travel back to A.
The question is "at what time does that light reach A", answer 1216.

PS there is of course an interesting twist to this. Because the rocket travels at the (impossible) speed of light, the light from its take off arrives at B at the same time as the rocket's arrival, so people at B see the take off and arrival simultaneously!
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #9 on: 21/08/2016 08:57:58 »

-ve and +ve are abbreviations for the words negative and positive



Yes direction, I was using them from switching ''view'' from each observer, I place myself in each position to ''see'' what I see.


If I am in position A relative to me the Photon leaving B is travelling -ve but relative to B the Photon is travelling +ve and vice versus for the Photon leaving A.

Quote
This is not the same question/situation as the original one.

I assure you Colin it is the same question but the answer is a lot harder to ''see'' and visualise. I  have now managed to simplify from the original explanation, I have been explaining this for years but now I have finally got a really simple version.

The very first time I was told we see the sun in its past, alarm bells rang in my head. When I realised ''you'' was only accounting for a one way journey I realised there was an incompleteness.

added - please tell me if this incorrect logic

If the Earth ''see's'' the Sun 8 minutes ago

and the Sun ''see's'' the Earth 8 minutes ago

then they both see each other 8 minutes ago

which cancels each other out and means they ''see'' each other now.

added- I am not trying to ''break'' science , I am learning it.  When I learn something I like to try and visualise and even sometimes doodle a diagram of the information to help  me interpret the information.

We see the sun 8 minutes ago, yes if considering a point source(photon)  travelling from the sun into our eyes .

I can draw a straight line vector from A to B

This is all good and sound logic.

However if I add a second observer to the scenario and consider the Photons reflected from both observers that allows them to observe each other, there adds complication and something is seemingly contradiction to the initial statement of we observe the Sun in its past.

I have considered it does not matter is we displaced the two observers e.g one closer to the source, because a linearity remains between the two observers and the simultaneous event of reflection travel time from either body remains equal no matter what the distance because the very fact light is constant in free space.





« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 10:10:07 by Thebox »

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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #10 on: 21/08/2016 10:51:16 »
Let's not all get boxed in (metres per second) times (metres) is metres squared per second. One way to get t is v/a. That is velocity divided by acceleration.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #11 on: 21/08/2016 18:09:29 »
please tell me if this incorrect logic

If the Earth ''see's'' the Sun 8 minutes ago = correct

and the Sun ''see's'' the Earth 8 minutes ago = correct

then they both see each other 8 minutes ago = correct

which cancels each other out and means they ''see'' each other now. = incorrect,
there is nothing to cancel out. They both see each other as they were 8 mins ago, not as they are now.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #12 on: 21/08/2016 18:45:22 »


If the Earth ''see's'' the Sun 8 minutes ago = correct

and the Sun ''see's'' the Earth 8 minutes ago = correct

then they both see each other 8 minutes ago = correct

which cancels each other out and means they ''see'' each other now. = incorrect,
there is nothing to cancel out. They both see each other as they were 8 mins ago, not as they are now.

They both see each other 8 minutes ago, ok let us think this through. 


You are saying we both see each other in the  past, so I exist now but I see the Sun in its past , the Sun exists now but it ''see's'' me in the past. 

I am sorry that makes no sense,

do you agree we both see each other simultaneously as my diagram shows?

If not what do you contest?

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Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #13 on: 21/08/2016 20:07:33 »

A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This bit is wrong but nobody is listening to me when I am showing why it is wrong. They expect me to accept this when it is wrong. 
I think that few people expect you to accept the correct answer. You have amply demonstrated to most people that you are incapable of understanding at least this topic. This may be due to a number of factors. I highly recommend that you seek some form of counseling to consider whether or not everyone else in the world has the problem or if just you has the problem here.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #14 on: 21/08/2016 20:13:17 »
Reread what I said in my last post "They both see each other as they were 8 mins ago, not as they are now"

I will spell it out:

2 people are 8 light minutes apart. At exactly 1200 they both wave their arms once. The light from these events travels to the 2 people and at 1208 they both see the other wave their arms even though they have not waved their arms for the last 8 minutes. They are seeing now (1208) what happened in the past (1200).

We have been over this in a number of different threads and you obviously find the concept difficult to understand, so we had best leave it at that if you really don't understand what I have said.

Edit: I notice PhysBang replied while I was typing. I agree with him, I don't think you will ever accept the correct answer so further discussion is futile. I certainly don't have time to waste on something which is so obvious.


« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 20:17:03 by Colin2B »
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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #15 on: 21/08/2016 21:17:04 »
They both see each other 8 minutes ago, ok let us think this through. 

You are saying we both see each other in the  past, so I exist now but I see the Sun in its past , the Sun exists now but it ''see's'' me in the past. 

I am sorry that makes no sense,

do you agree we both see each other simultaneously as my diagram shows?

If not what do you contest?

Are you happier with the speed of sound?

Let's say you and a friend are on the Olympic (see, topical!) 100m track at opposite ends. Someone at the 50m mark (exactly between you) raises their hand. When you and your friend see that raised hand you both shout very loudly.

Excluding wind, temperature etc, you and your friend will hear each other at the "same time". But ... clearly, due to the speed of sound, you'll be hearing each other some time after you each shouted.

In your style, that means you are hearing each other in the "past". (From about 0.29 seconds ago).

Is that any kind of problem?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #16 on: 21/08/2016 21:56:42 »


2 people are 8 light minutes apart. At exactly 1200 they both wave their arms once. The light from these events travels to the 2 people and at 1208 they both see the other wave their arms even though they have not waved their arms for the last 8 minutes. They are seeing now (1208) what happened in the past (1200).




, if you see me at 12.08 and I see you at 12.08 , we are seeing each other at the same time.

« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 22:14:00 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #17 on: 21/08/2016 21:59:12 »
They both see each other 8 minutes ago, ok let us think this through. 

You are saying we both see each other in the  past, so I exist now but I see the Sun in its past , the Sun exists now but it ''see's'' me in the past. 

I am sorry that makes no sense,

do you agree we both see each other simultaneously as my diagram shows?

If not what do you contest?

Are you happier with the speed of sound?

Let's say you and a friend are on the Olympic (see, topical!) 100m track at opposite ends. Someone at the 50m mark (exactly between you) raises their hand. When you and your friend see that raised hand you both shout very loudly.

Excluding wind, temperature etc, you and your friend will hear each other at the "same time". But ... clearly, due to the speed of sound, you'll be hearing each other some time after you each shouted.

In your style, that means you are hearing each other in the "past". (From about 0.29 seconds ago).

Is that any kind of problem?

we are doing light not sound,

My diagram clearly shows it, can people not read diagrams?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #18 on: 21/08/2016 22:00:22 »

A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This bit is wrong but nobody is listening to me when I am showing why it is wrong. They expect me to accept this when it is wrong. 
I think that few people expect you to accept the correct answer. You have amply demonstrated to most people that you are incapable of understanding at least this topic. This may be due to a number of factors. I highly recommend that you seek some form of counseling to consider whether or not everyone else in the world has the problem or if just you has the problem here.

My diagram is correct

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #19 on: 21/08/2016 22:11:43 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?


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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #20 on: 21/08/2016 22:16:40 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?

It's a little awkward that you keep changing the scenarios, but yes (assuming a few things), they each see each other from 6:08:00, at 6:08:01.

(This refers to your post #5).
« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 22:20:40 by pzkpfw »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #21 on: 21/08/2016 22:18:29 »
Are you happier with the speed of sound?

Let's say you and a friend are on the Olympic (see, topical!) 100m track at opposite ends. Someone at the 50m mark (exactly between you) raises their hand. When you and your friend see that raised hand you both shout very loudly.

Excluding wind, temperature etc, you and your friend will hear each other at the "same time". But ... clearly, due to the speed of sound, you'll be hearing each other some time after you each shouted.

In your style, that means you are hearing each other in the "past". (From about 0.29 seconds ago).

Is that any kind of problem?

we are doing light not sound,

My diagram clearly shows it, can people not read diagrams?

Nice evasion, are you afraid of the answer?

(I know that this is going to go down the path where you think light is different to sound, in that vison is "instant" once there's light between observer and object, but I think it's useful to the readers of this thread to see that in your words).

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #22 on: 21/08/2016 22:24:23 »
Are you happier with the speed of sound?

Let's say you and a friend are on the Olympic (see, topical!) 100m track at opposite ends. Someone at the 50m mark (exactly between you) raises their hand. When you and your friend see that raised hand you both shout very loudly.

Excluding wind, temperature etc, you and your friend will hear each other at the "same time". But ... clearly, due to the speed of sound, you'll be hearing each other some time after you each shouted.

In your style, that means you are hearing each other in the "past". (From about 0.29 seconds ago).

Is that any kind of problem?

we are doing light not sound,

My diagram clearly shows it, can people not read diagrams?

Nice evasion, are you afraid of the answer?

(I know that this is going to go down the path where you think light is different to sound, in that vison is "instant" once there's light between observer and object, but I think it's useful to the readers of this thread to see that in your words).

It is not evasion, my head is thinking of a Photon and not a wave that is all.  I understand already what  you are trying to explain and I could do a better job. However what you are explaining is not quite what I am explaining causes a contradiction to what I am trying to learn .

My earlier diagram shows I understand light travels and it takes 8 minutes to arrive giving the impression of we see the sun as it were 8 minutes ago.

However my contradiction shows simultaneous so I can not accept the learning without the issue been resolved.

« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 22:27:52 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #23 on: 21/08/2016 22:26:37 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?

It's a little awkward that you keep changing the scenarios, but yes (assuming a few things), they each see each other from 6:08:00, at 6:08:01.

(This refers to your post #5).

Yes exactly, they  both see each other at 6:08:01.    They see each other simultaneously do they not?

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #24 on: 21/08/2016 22:37:12 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?

It's a little awkward that you keep changing the scenarios, but yes (assuming a few things), they each see each other from 6:08:00, at 6:08:01.

(This refers to your post #5).

Yes exactly, they  both see each other at 6:08:01.    They see each other simultaneously do they not?

I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #25 on: 21/08/2016 22:43:40 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?

It's a little awkward that you keep changing the scenarios, but yes (assuming a few things), they each see each other from 6:08:00, at 6:08:01.

(This refers to your post #5).

Yes exactly, they  both see each other at 6:08:01.    They see each other simultaneously do they not?

I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.

It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #26 on: 21/08/2016 23:10:08 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.

It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #27 on: 21/08/2016 23:13:25 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?
« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 23:17:16 by Thebox »

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #28 on: 22/08/2016 00:44:37 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?

Nope. (Assuming they stay at rest with respect to each other.)

e.g. if they had previously synchronised their clocks, and both waved at 10:00, they would both see each other do that thing at 10:08.

(Or, in your post #5 scenario, modified by this new criteria where A and B are also 8 light minutes apart: the sun rises at 6:00 and its rays hit them both at 6:08. They see each other at 6:16.)
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 01:04:09 by pzkpfw »

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #29 on: 22/08/2016 01:04:36 »


Ok so far , you seem to understand me.


Yes Mr. Box, we all understand you. The problem is that you do not understand us nor much about Relativity.

I'd recommend that you try reading up on what the "experts" have to say about this matter and try for once to accept the scientific facts without trying to invent some new and novel way of understanding reality. You will discover that your new ideas are flawed. Once you learn this, you may have a chance to begin learning the truth about these matters. If you don't, and continue to accuse everyone else of being wrong, you'll never, I repeat, NEVER advance your personal understanding any degree what-so-ever.

Enough said.................................................
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #30 on: 22/08/2016 08:04:01 »


2 people are 8 light minutes apart. At exactly 1200 they both wave their arms once. The light from these events travels to the 2 people and at 1208 they both see the other wave their arms even though they have not waved their arms for the last 8 minutes. They are seeing now (1208) what happened in the past (1200).


, if you see me at 12.08 and I see you at 12.08 , we are seeing each other at the same time.

To answer your question in terms of simultaneous

They wave their arms simultaneously at 1200
The light travels simultaneously for 8 mins
The light from the event arrives simultaneously with each person at 1208
They see each other simultaneously at 1208 seeing each other in the past simultaneously waving their arms.
Simultaneously they wonder why the box finds this so hard to understand.

No one ever suggested that the light did not arrive simultaneously - that is arrived at different times. It left at the same time, it arrived at the same time.
None of this changes the fact that they see each other as they were 8 mins ago (1200) they do not see each other as they are now (1208).

Edit: somewhere in your description of light from the sun you said that the same photons were reflected from each person. This is not true, they are different photons. Although this is irrelevant to this discussion it important to get the facts right.

« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 08:20:47 by Colin2B »
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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #31 on: 22/08/2016 08:37:30 »
No one ever sees an actual event but merely the photons that reflect off the object(s) in said event. These photons take a finite amount of time to reach the eye so all visual interpretation of an event is after the event has happened. Now then Thebox. This is accepted by all sensible physicists. This conversation may be terminated prematurely unless you stop playing games. Understood?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #32 on: 22/08/2016 09:35:57 »
No one ever sees an actual event but merely the photons that reflect off the object(s) in said event. These photons take a finite amount of time to reach the eye so all visual interpretation of an event is after the event has happened. Now then Thebox. This is accepted by all sensible physicists. This conversation may be terminated prematurely unless you stop playing games. Understood?

So again you threaten the student with termination of post if he does not accept the information you are trying to  impose on him to be true, when the student is nowhere near finished with his query about the information?

I think we are now understanding each other and all in this thread understand the simultaneous of sight I mention.


Please all return to the very first diagram and the rocket. The rocket leaves Earth at 12:00 it arrives at the Sun at 12:08.  The observer in the towers clock is synchronised with Captain Stewart's clock. When the rocket arrives at the Sun both clocks show 12:08, both A and B experience 8 minutes between events of departure and arrival.
Are we in agreement with this?  (ignoring time dilation)







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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #33 on: 22/08/2016 09:41:48 »


Ok so far , you seem to understand me.


Yes Mr. Box, we all understand you. The problem is that you do not understand us nor much about Relativity.

I'd recommend that you try reading up on what the "experts" have to say about this matter and try for once to accept the scientific facts without trying to invent some new and novel way of understanding reality. You will discover that your new ideas are flawed. Once you learn this, you may have a chance to begin learning the truth about these matters. If you don't, and continue to accuse everyone else of being wrong, you'll never, I repeat, NEVER advance your personal understanding any degree what-so-ever.

Enough said.................................................

The problem is I do understand you and the  information and I  have a query that I feel shows the information to be at fault, it is called a science conversation and not called try to force discipline of the information I already know. Respect to Pz who knows how to have a conversation.

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #34 on: 22/08/2016 09:46:02 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?

Nope. (Assuming they stay at rest with respect to each other.)

e.g. if they had previously synchronised their clocks, and both waved at 10:00, they would both see each other do that thing at 10:08.

(Or, in your post #5 scenario, modified by this new criteria where A and B are also 8 light minutes apart: the sun rises at 6:00 and its rays hit them both at 6:08. They see each other at 6:16.)

Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 09:59:15 by Thebox »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #35 on: 22/08/2016 11:10:24 »
Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

Given the scenario that we are "at rest" with each other, yes. But don't forget the delay; as consistently noted in my previous few posts and which you've not objected to. What's "simultaneous" is not our actions and the other seeing them - there's an 8 minute delay caused by the distance and the speed of light. We're seeing each other as at 8 minutes ago. So we both see each others "simultaneous 12:08 event", at the "simultaneous" time of 12:16.

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

Yes, but again, be careful about what's "simultaneous". The delay between actions at one end (rocket or Sun) and the other observer (Sun or rocket) seeing them gets smaller and smaller. It goes from 8 minutes, to zero. (Reverse for an observer who stays on Earth and watches the rocket).

a. When the rocket is a quarter of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after six minutes on the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after six minutes by the rocket.
b. When the rocket is half way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after four minutes, at both Earth and Sun, and events on Earth and Sun are seen after four minutes by the rocket.
c. When the rocket is three quarters of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after two minutes, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after two minutes by the rocket.
d. When the rocket is all the way to the Sun, events on the rocket are seen immediately, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen immediately by the rocket.
(Well, since the rocket keeps moving, none of that is quite accurate, but close enough).
(And ... we're ignoring relativity here, the very notion of "simultaneous" doesn't really work for objects in relative motion.)

The main point is: at any given point along the path, the distance from rocket to Sun equals the distance from Sun to rocket, so each will have the same delay between event on one and the other seeing that event. That is what is "simultaneous". The delay caused by travel of light means that what is not simultaneous, is event and seeing that event.

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

Let's say a clock on the Sun had previously been synchronised with a clock on Earth, and the Earth observer was watching that clock as the rocket approached the Sun. They'd certainly see that when the rocket reached the Sun, it was 12:08 by that clock; but they'd not see the clock showing that 12:08 until their own clock was showing 12:16. Because it takes 8 minutes for the light showing that event to get to Earth.

That "the entire journey has been observed simultaneously" does not remove the delay caused by the speed of light. It simply means that the delay will be seen to increase, from zero minutes to eight minutes, as the rocket gets further away.

Imagine that clock on the Sun was an LED clock. When the clock changes from 12:07 to 12:08, new segments on the last digit have to light to show an "8" where it previously showed "7". Think of those segments as providing new beams of light whose "tips" have to travel to reach you.

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.

They are both correct, and it does not contradict what I've been writing. You keep ignoring the time it takes light to travel. It's all perfectly consistent. You need to keep in mind what is synchronous with what.

It's like you're agreeing that Apples are synchronous, but then saying that means Oranges are synchronous.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #36 on: 22/08/2016 15:16:26 »
Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

Given the scenario that we are "at rest" with each other, yes. But don't forget the delay; as consistently noted in my previous few posts and which you've not objected to. What's "simultaneous" is not our actions and the other seeing them - there's an 8 minute delay caused by the distance and the speed of light. We're seeing each other as at 8 minutes ago. So we both see each others "simultaneous 12:08 event", at the "simultaneous" time of 12:16.

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

Yes, but again, be careful about what's "simultaneous". The delay between actions at one end (rocket or Sun) and the other observer (Sun or rocket) seeing them gets smaller and smaller. It goes from 8 minutes, to zero. (Reverse for an observer who stays on Earth and watches the rocket).

a. When the rocket is a quarter of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after six minutes on the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after six minutes by the rocket.
b. When the rocket is half way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after four minutes, at both Earth and Sun, and events on Earth and Sun are seen after four minutes by the rocket.
c. When the rocket is three quarters of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after two minutes, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after two minutes by the rocket.
d. When the rocket is all the way to the Sun, events on the rocket are seen immediately, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen immediately by the rocket.
(Well, since the rocket keeps moving, none of that is quite accurate, but close enough).
(And ... we're ignoring relativity here, the very notion of "simultaneous" doesn't really work for objects in relative motion.)

The main point is: at any given point along the path, the distance from rocket to Sun equals the distance from Sun to rocket, so each will have the same delay between event on one and the other seeing that event. That is what is "simultaneous". The delay caused by travel of light means that what is not simultaneous, is event and seeing that event.

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

Let's say a clock on the Sun had previously been synchronised with a clock on Earth, and the Earth observer was watching that clock as the rocket approached the Sun. They'd certainly see that when the rocket reached the Sun, it was 12:08 by that clock; but they'd not see the clock showing that 12:08 until their own clock was showing 12:16. Because it takes 8 minutes for the light showing that event to get to Earth.

That "the entire journey has been observed simultaneously" does not remove the delay caused by the speed of light. It simply means that the delay will be seen to increase, from zero minutes to eight minutes, as the rocket gets further away.

Imagine that clock on the Sun was an LED clock. When the clock changes from 12:07 to 12:08, new segments on the last digit have to light to show an "8" where it previously showed "7". Think of those segments as providing new beams of light whose "tips" have to travel to reach you.

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.

They are both correct, and it does not contradict what I've been writing. You keep ignoring the time it takes light to travel. It's all perfectly consistent. You need to keep in mind what is synchronous with what.

It's like you're agreeing that Apples are synchronous, but then saying that means Oranges are synchronous.

I can't  believe none of you can ''see'' the contradiction. Quite clearly the fantasist ''religion'' you have all been subjected to has warped all your minds.


Again people are not, or can't be bothered  just for once ignoring the present dogma and considering why it is so wrong.

I have simply explained and all of you have agreed in the simultaneous sight yet you can't ''see'' the contradiction .


How strange.

added - OK, you can't see the contradiction that way I will change my approach.


We can see light that as not entered our eyes.




« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 15:36:54 by Thebox »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #37 on: 22/08/2016 15:44:19 »
We can see light that as not entered our eyes.

Demonstrably false.

But let's not get into that. You know that radio waves are the same as visible light, yes? Then according to you two way communication using radio between the Earth and the Martian rovers shouldn't have a delay.

So are NASA scientists stupid or lying just to make you look bad?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #38 on: 22/08/2016 15:54:48 »
We can see light that as not entered our eyes.

Demonstrably false.

But let's not get into that. You know that radio waves are the same as visible light, yes? Then according to you two way communication using radio between the Earth and the Martian rovers shouldn't have a delay.

So are NASA scientists stupid or lying just to make you look bad?

Of course there is a delay when the signal is entering a medium and slows down, I know light travels, that is not my argument.

We can see light that  as not entered our eyes, demonstrable true.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #39 on: 22/08/2016 16:05:56 »
Of course there is a delay when the signal is entering a medium and slows down, I know light travels, that is not my argument.

The difference in propagation speed between vacuum and air isn't remotely enough to account for the Earth to Mars delay.

Quote
We can see light that  as not entered our eyes, demonstrable true.

Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #40 on: 22/08/2016 16:10:16 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.




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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #41 on: 22/08/2016 16:18:45 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.
Hopeless,.........................utterly hopeless!
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #42 on: 22/08/2016 16:20:48 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.
Hopeless,.........................utterly hopeless!

Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.

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Offline agyejy

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #43 on: 22/08/2016 16:38:02 »
oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.

The word "delay" is in no way ambiguous and you still haven't explained why NASA thinks it takes 20 minutes before the commands they send are executed by the Mars rovers.

Quote
But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.

Nope. There is this thing called the Tyndall effect that sometimes lets you see the rough outline of a beam of light but only because some sort of particle in the path of the beam of light actively bounced photons out of the beam and into your eyes.

Quote
Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.

Actually it is provably correct (and even that is terrible terrible grammar) that we can only see light that enters out eyes.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #44 on: 22/08/2016 16:47:53 »
oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.

The word "delay" is in no way ambiguous and you still haven't explained why NASA thinks it takes 20 minutes before the commands they send are executed by the Mars rovers.

Quote
But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.

Nope. There is this thing called the Tyndall effect that sometimes lets you see the rough outline of a beam of light but only because some sort of particle in the path of the beam of light actively bounced photons out of the beam and into your eyes.

Quote
Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.

Actually it is provably correct (and even that is terrible terrible grammar) that we can only see light that enters out eyes.

Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.


p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 16:53:08 by Thebox »

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Offline agyejy

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #45 on: 22/08/2016 17:32:54 »
Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

Ok let's put it this way. Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?

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No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.

Well you've conclusively proven that you lack the ability to reason in any fashion that might be vaguely considered logic. That or you're doing this on purpose for laughs.

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p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .

Irrelevant.

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #46 on: 22/08/2016 23:47:01 »
what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?
Excellent question, but I doubt you will get an answer.

and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #47 on: 23/08/2016 09:43:31 »
Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

Ok let's put it this way. Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?

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No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.

Well you've conclusively proven that you lack the ability to reason in any fashion that might be vaguely considered logic. That or you're doing this on purpose for laughs.

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p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .

Irrelevant.

12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 ,


refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous.

Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

p.s there is certainly some quantum weirdness going on here, refer back to I think it was Colin's post, the observer on the Sun would see the rocket leaving and arriving at the same time.

« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 12:22:17 by Thebox »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #48 on: 23/08/2016 12:32:01 »
12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 , ...

Don't be silly, or deliberately obtuse. You know that it's because everyone but you knows it takes time for light to travel.

... refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous. ...

You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting those posts. They've all been very clear about what's simultaneous and what's not.

... Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

You are still relying on images travelling instantly, which you have not shown to occur; and you are misapplying the concept of what is simultaneous with what.

In the real World, light takes time to travel. At your half way stage, a person on Earth could wave and a person on the rocket could simultaneously wave. Light showing that event would then begin to travel. Light that already left Earth and already left the rocket, couldn't show the events as they hadn't occurred yet.

That light then would take four minutes to travel to the other observer. So the person on Earth and the person in the rocket might simultaneously see each other wave, but they'd be seeing it 4 minutes after it occurred. i.e. both wave simultaneously at 4 minutes, see each other wave at 8 minutes. (And, of course, rocket arrival at the Sun, at 8 minutes, seen on Earth 8 minutes later).

Yes - I used the word "simultaneous" above - but what is simultaneous is not the waving and the seeing of the waving.

You can write more post until your fingers fall off, but if you want to argue this away, what you need to show is that somehow things can be seen instantly across large distances. Your comment "as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way" does not being to come close to an explanation. All it means is that the delay starts at zero, and will get larger as the distance increases.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 12:35:36 by pzkpfw »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #49 on: 23/08/2016 12:57:40 »
12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 , ...

Don't be silly, or deliberately obtuse. You know that it's because everyone but you knows it takes time for light to travel.

... refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous. ...

You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting those posts. They've all been very clear about what's simultaneous and what's not.

... Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

You are still relying on images travelling instantly, which you have not shown to occur; and you are misapplying the concept of what is simultaneous with what.

In the real World, light takes time to travel. At your half way stage, a person on Earth could wave and a person on the rocket could simultaneously wave. Light showing that event would then begin to travel. Light that already left Earth and already left the rocket, couldn't show the events as they hadn't occurred yet.

That light then would take four minutes to travel to the other observer. So the person on Earth and the person in the rocket might simultaneously see each other wave, but they'd be seeing it 4 minutes after it occurred. i.e. both wave simultaneously at 4 minutes, see each other wave at 8 minutes. (And, of course, rocket arrival at the Sun, at 8 minutes, seen on Earth 8 minutes later).

Yes - I used the word "simultaneous" above - but what is simultaneous is not the waving and the seeing of the waving.

You can write more post until your fingers fall off, but if you want to argue this away, what you need to show is that somehow things can be seen instantly across large distances. Your comment "as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way" does not being to come close to an explanation. All it means is that the delay starts at zero, and will get larger as the distance increases.

Seriously Pz I understand what you have said, but you are still wrong , I am not relying on the ''pictures'' arriving instantly in my scenario.  I did my scenario using Photons and c, you are failing to ''see'' objectively the problem.


Let us take this slow one step at a time.


You are on the rocket at rest relative to me in the control tower.

Our clocks are synchronous.

The light travelling from me to you and you to me allow synchronous sight of each.

I observe your clock says 12am

you observe my clock says 12am

You then blast off at any velocity and travel for 30 minutes on my clock, your clock also travels for 30 minutes and shows the exact same time as my clock.

12:30am

Throughout the entire 30 minutes I can see you and you can see me simultaneously.

You do not see me at 12:30am as I were at 12:15am because that would mean I was only half the distance travelled .

Do you agree thus far?

« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 13:06:51 by Thebox »