What time does the rocket arrive at point B?

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #50 on: 23/08/2016 15:36:23 »
Do you agree thus far?
No


Excellent question, but I doubt you will get an answer.
LOL, I should have said "..a correct answer"

This thread is becoming pointless as your logic is flawed and you will never see it.

However, you assured me at the beginning of this thread that you had a specific question you wished to discuss and were not going to try and introduce a new theory and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. This is most definitely a new theory (that is a theory that has not yet been published), although most would class it as it can't be true.
As you seem unable to abide by forum usage policy we will help you, while you decide whether you will do so in future.
Untill further notice you are banned from posting in the following sections:
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Non Life Sciences
Life Sciences
The moderator board will discuss when or if this will be lifted.
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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #51 on: 23/08/2016 19:53:45 »
Seriously Pz I understand what you have said, but you are still wrong , I am not relying on the ''pictures'' arriving instantly in my scenario.  I did my scenario using Photons and c, you are failing to ''see'' objectively the problem.

Let us take this slow one step at a time.

You are on the rocket at rest relative to me in the control tower.

Our clocks are synchronous.

The light travelling from me to you and you to me allow synchronous sight of each.

I observe your clock says 12am

you observe my clock says 12am

You then blast off at any velocity and travel for 30 minutes on my clock, your clock also travels for 30 minutes and shows the exact same time as my clock.

12:30am

Throughout the entire 30 minutes I can see you and you can see me simultaneously.

You do not see me at 12:30am as I were at 12:15am because that would mean I was only half the distance travelled .

Do you agree thus far?

Absolutely not. After those 30 minutes, there's a distance between the control tower and the rocket. That means anything on the rocket will be seen by the control tower after some delay, and vice versa, and that includes images of their clocks. Exactly how much delay, will depend on the distance. Specifically, even if their clocks were somehow still synchronous, they'd not be seeing the same time on their own clock and the other clock.

You have given zero reason to think otherwise. Merely keeping an unending watch on each other does not magically cause light to travel instantly, and light is how we see.


(And again a disclaimer in case someone stumbles on this and gets led astray, we're definitely ignoring relativity in all this.)
« Last Edit: 24/08/2016 22:54:59 by pzkpfw »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #52 on: 27/08/2016 08:01:25 »
I see you now like I sore you now back then.


P.s I was not going to post again, and one day you will realise I am correct and you are really going want to speak to me then, but you know what?  ''your'' arrogance's are now going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 08:08:14 by Thebox »

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #53 on: 27/08/2016 09:19:21 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh? [;)]

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #54 on: 27/08/2016 13:40:22 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh? [;)]

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #55 on: 27/08/2016 14:54:30 »
This link shows much greater understanding than before.
So, go back to the original question and reread the replies up to about #5. Why do you think those replies are wrong, read them very carefully before you reply.
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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #56 on: 27/08/2016 17:43:34 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh? [;)]

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/
First principle: "Never fool yourself, because you are the easiest one to fool."
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #57 on: 27/08/2016 21:52:55 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh? [;)]

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/
First principle: "Never fool yourself, because you are the easiest one to fool."

One can only be fooled by imagination, one can not be fooled by logical process and objective thoughts.


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #58 on: 27/08/2016 22:03:34 »
This link shows much greater understanding than before.
So, go back to the original question and reread the replies up to about #5. Why do you think those replies are wrong, read them very carefully before you reply.

I do not need to re-read those replies or think hard why those replies are ''wrong'' Colin, the reason those replies are ''wrong'' Colin is because  the very reason I already understand those replies .  I have always understood it and this is what people fail to understand.
The thinking is incomplete Colin, it is wrong because of incompleteness.
Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.

Was there anything  specific in the first post replies you would like me to address?

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #59 on: 27/08/2016 22:58:33 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #60 on: 27/08/2016 23:00:34 »
.
Was there anything  specific in the first post replies you would like me to address?

Yes. In this one show the timings which you would consider correct
Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202.
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

And please answer the question posed in this one and explain why you think your answer is correct.
Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #61 on: 27/08/2016 23:10:14 »

Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202. 
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.

Quote
And please answer the question posed in this one and explain why you think your answer is correct.
Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?
A good question and an answer I do not know at this present time although not having an answer does not mean the contradiction does not exist.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #62 on: 27/08/2016 23:12:03 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?
omg just read the link

edit, sorry i am tired I should answer tomorrow when I am fresh headed.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:22:16 by Thebox »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #63 on: 27/08/2016 23:22:14 »
omg just read the link

I've read the link. It's gibberish. But if you think it's correct, just post it here where we can discuss it.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #64 on: 27/08/2016 23:23:01 »
omg just read the link

I've read the link. It's gibberish. But if you think it's correct, just post it here where we can discuss it.

The amount of time it takes light to travel a distance of free space is constant because the speed of light denoted c measured in a vacuum is constant in speed  at 299 792 458 m / s. From the Sun to Earth a Photon’s journey,  the Photon  on average takes about eight minutes and twenty seconds to reach the Earth and enter your eyes, in which this a part of the sight process ,  thus allowing us to see by the Photon’s entering our eyes.

Photon’s emitted from the surface of the Sun need to travel across the vacuum of space to reach our eyes that allows us to see the Sun , we see objects similarly  by the Photons reflecting off objects that travel across free space that enter our eyes. We retain an image of the object in our minds as long as we retain a clear line of sight.

Thus ”brings” to my attention the thought and postulate of considering the events in which the present information is seemingly at error . The present information suggesting we see objects as they were in their past. In short and simple terms it is presently suggested that when you  observe the Sun at 9 a.m relative to you, you are actually seeing the Sun , an image in your brain,  that is eight minutes and twenty seconds old and that you are  seeing the Sun as it were at 8:51:40 am .  Effectively when you observe any object you are observing into the past.

However, there is an incompleteness about this and in consideration of ALL of the events and completeness, there is seemingly a contradiction, thus leading me to the discussion of the humble but yet so informative ”tube”.

Let us look through the tube,  a ”Quanta tunnel”,  I at one end of the tube and you at the other end of the tube, we will label my end of the tube (A) and we shall label your end of the tube (B), we shall also define the rest length of the tube,  defining the rest length of the tube is 299792458 m and define this as one light second of light travel between I and you in either direction the light travels.

Now let us consider the present information and how the present information conform’s in accordance with the tube. From (A) to (B), a Photon takes one second to travel the distance.  From (B) to (A) the Photon takes one second to travel the distance.

”If” we were both to release, emit or reflect  a Photon at the exact same time, both opposite points would receive the Photons at the exact same time because of the constant speed of the light.  In simple terms if we emitted a Photon each, at exactly 9:00:00 am on synchronised clocks, the individual Photons would reach us at exactly 9:00:01 am, simultaneous on both clocks. In relationship to sight , Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am, but according to present information we observe each other as we were at 9:00:00 am.

However, in this scenario we both started at precisely 9:00:00 am , we both experienced one second of time pass by as the light travelled the distance from both points.  I, you and the Photon’s,  all experience the passing of time of a one second duration, while the scenario event takes place.

In this scenario it is important to consider the one second of ”darkness”, the absence of light.  The observers exist in ”darkness” and experience ”darkness” until the light arrives at the simultaneous point in time where both observers see each other simultaneously.

Thus far, this shows us that once a line of sight ”connection” is established, that sight between two observers is simultaneous by the very fact that c is constant, this also shows us that the now of your time position at the (B) end of the tube is equal to the now time position at the (A) end of the tube thus concluding we see each other as we are now and not in the past.

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Offline timey

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #65 on: 27/08/2016 23:25:08 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?

Just noticed this post.

How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #66 on: 27/08/2016 23:36:06 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:44:50 by Colin2B »
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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #67 on: 27/08/2016 23:37:11 »
...
”If” we were both to release, emit or reflect  a Photon at the exact same time, both opposite points would receive the Photons at the exact same time because of the constant speed of the light.  In simple terms if we emitted a Photon each, at exactly 9:00:00 am on synchronised clocks, the individual Photons would reach us at exactly 9:00:01 am, simultaneous on both clocks. In relationship to sight , Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am, but according to present information we observe each other as we were at 9:00:00 am.

However, in this scenario we both started at precisely 9:00:00 am , we both experienced one second of time pass by as the light travelled the distance from both points.  I, you and the Photon’s,  all experience the passing of time of a one second duration, while the scenario event takes place.

In this scenario it is important to consider the one second of ”darkness”, the absence of light.  The observers exist in ”darkness” and experience ”darkness” until the light arrives at the simultaneous point in time where both observers see each other simultaneously.

Thus far, this shows us that once a line of sight ”connection” is established, that sight between two observers is simultaneous by the very fact that c is constant, this also shows us that the now of your time position at the (B) end of the tube is equal to the now time position at the (A) end of the tube thus concluding we see each other as we are now and not in the past.

Yeah, this is the same old stuff. First you acknowledge that it takes a second for light to travel that 1 light second distance, so you admit the observers see each other after that 1 second delay, but then, somehow because the two observers are observing each other, somehow say that means they see each others events instantly.

It's that last step that you don't actually explain.

I agree that over your distance of 1 light second, observers at each end will see each others synchronous events at "the same time". One waves at 9:00:00 and the other waves at 9:00:00, and they'll each see the others wave "at the same time" *, but that blog post doesn't really explain how that in turn means the events are seen at the same time as they occur. One moment you agree that "Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am" and the next moment you throw that away and somehow think the events are seen at 9:00:00. It makes no sense.

It's not explained at all.


(* edit: which would be 9:00:01)

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #68 on: 27/08/2016 23:40:38 »
That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.
So what are the 'complete events'
If the timings are correct, what are you claiming??
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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #69 on: 27/08/2016 23:53:48 »
That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.
So what are the 'complete events'
If the timings are correct, what are you claiming??

What you have to remember Colin is I am not a scientist and it is not easy for a none scientist to explain something in science terms or something easy to  understand.
Your timings consider only a one way trip and not the simultaneous trip of the Photon travelling the opposite direction.

When I consider the one way trip from a different approach it gives me a different answer to the present answer.  I  needed to write a second part to my link, explaining the rest of the problem.

In short if we are nose to nose we see each other ''now'' do we not? the distance being negligible. 

We see each at the same time both being in the present. 

If you extend the distance between us we continue to see each other at the same time, the present.  If you travelled to the Sun I would still see you in the ''now'' and it would still be simultaneous sight and we would still be in the present.

« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:58:06 by Thebox »

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Offline timey

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #70 on: 27/08/2016 23:57:41 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
If an observation has changed length in transit, it will affect its transit time...

If you are dealing with a light oriented observation, I fail to see how the relativistic nature of the observation can be ignored.
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #71 on: 28/08/2016 00:20:10 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
If an observation has changed length in transit, it will affect its transit time...

If you are dealing with a light oriented observation, I fail to see how the relativistic nature of the observation can be ignored.

We can ignore relativistic effects because the light experiences the same equal relative effects in either direction in the scenario.


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Offline timey

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #72 on: 28/08/2016 00:30:43 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 00:33:11 by timey »
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #73 on: 28/08/2016 00:38:32 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Basically if you were to look at the Sun the image you are seeing is an approx 8 minute old image and not the actual present image and you see the sun in its past , however from a different look at the situation there is an apparent contradiction.


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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #74 on: 28/08/2016 00:40:22 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Summarised; XYZ thinks that if two people with pre-synchronised clocks, 8 light minutes apart, waved at the "same time", they'd both be seeing each other do that at the moment they waved. i.e. they'd see each other waving at the same time as they are themselves waving. Whereas everyone else says that the two people would see the other persons wave 8 minutes later. If they both waved for 1 minute, their own arm would have stopped waving (for 7 minutes) at the time they see the other persons wave.

We're ignoring all other effects, relativistic or not. In this sort of very very basic topic (light takes time to travel), it's not helpful to nitpick the minutia. This is at the "lies to children" level.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 00:45:29 by pzkpfw »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #75 on: 28/08/2016 00:44:51 »
Basically if you were to look at the Sun the image you are seeing is an approx 8 minute old image and not the actual present image and you see the sun in its past , however from a different look at the situation there is an apparent contradiction.

There is no contradiction. You simply ignore the time it takes light to travel. Your continuous observation can't remove that time.

In your World, what if there were three observers? Z, who is 8 light minutes from X; and Y, who is exactly between them (4 light minutes from X, and 4 light minutes from Z).

It seems that in your World, X, Y and Z would all see each other wave at the same time. Everything (in your World), that occurs at the same time, is seen to occur, at the same time, regardless of distance. Is this a correct result of your claims?
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 00:47:23 by pzkpfw »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #76 on: 28/08/2016 00:47:59 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Basically, XYZ thinks that if two people with pre-synchronised clocks, 8 light minutes apart, waved at the "same time", they'd both be seeing each other do that at the moment they waved. i.e. they'd see each other waving at the same time as they are themselves waving. Whereas everyone else says that the two people would see the other persons wave 8 minutes later. If they both waved for 1 minute, their own arm would have stopped waving (for 7 minutes) at the time they see the other persons wave.

We're ignoring all other effects, relativistic or not. In this sort of very very basic topic (light takes time to travel), it's not helpful to nitpick the minutia. This is at the "lies to children" level.

Not quite,

You and I stand nose to nose with our arms in the air with our palms touching, we will set the time on both our clocks to be synchronous and you will depart at 9:00:00am

Can you tell me what time do you see me at 9:00:00am?

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

True or false?


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #77 on: 28/08/2016 00:52:50 »
Everything (in your World), that occurs at the same time, is seen to occur, at the same time, regardless of distance. Is this a correct result of your claims?

That's about it in short but it is only that because of the contradiction.

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #78 on: 28/08/2016 00:57:51 »
Everything (in your World), that occurs at the same time, is seen to occur, at the same time, regardless of distance. Is this a correct result of your claims?

That's about it in short but it is only that because of the contradiction.

The only contradiction is that you agree that light takes time to travel, yet think anyone at any distance can see something at the instant it occurs.

Absolutely mind bogglingly weird.


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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #79 on: 28/08/2016 01:01:11 »
Everything (in your World), that occurs at the same time, is seen to occur, at the same time, regardless of distance. Is this a correct result of your claims?

That's about it in short but it is only that because of the contradiction.

The only contradiction is that you agree that light takes time to travel, yet think anyone at any distance can see something at the instant it occurs.

Absolutely mind bogglingly weird.

It the scenario that's weird and spooky and mind boggling.

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

True or false?

On the other forum you have agreed this to be true.

If B travels for 1 light second away from A , what time will it say on both clocks?




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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #80 on: 28/08/2016 01:05:22 »
It the scenario that's weird and spooky and mind boggling.

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

True or false?

On the other forum you have agreed this to be true.

If B travels for 1 light second away from A , what time will it say on both clocks?

That's from : http://www.scienceforums.com/topic/29357-do-we-see-a-train-arrive-that-arrived-8-minutes-earlier/page-12#entry341330 [nofollow]

I'm not going to waste time giving you the answer here in the same detail as I gave over there when I introduced this to you.

In short:

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

True.

But then Real Word:

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 1 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:01).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 1 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:01).

And in XYZ World:

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 1 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 1 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

You've yet to explain why it works the way it does in XYZ World.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #81 on: 28/08/2016 01:09:29 »


You've yet to explain why it works the way it does in XYZ World.


An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to B, B sees the event at A (at 9:00:00).
An event occurs at B (at 9:00:00), light travels (over a 0 light second distance) to A, A sees the event at B (at 9:00:00).

True.

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , B sees  A (at 9:00:01).

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , A sees  B (at 9:00:01).

True.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 01:14:30 by Thebox »

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Offline timey

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #82 on: 28/08/2016 01:26:00 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Summarised; XYZ thinks that if two people with pre-synchronised clocks, 8 light minutes apart, waved at the "same time", they'd both be seeing each other do that at the moment they waved. i.e. they'd see each other waving at the same time as they are themselves waving. Whereas everyone else says that the two people would see the other persons wave 8 minutes later. If they both waved for 1 minute, their own arm would have stopped waving (for 7 minutes) at the time they see the other persons wave.

We're ignoring all other effects, relativistic or not. In this sort of very very basic topic (light takes time to travel), it's not helpful to nitpick the minutia. This is at the "lies to children" level.
Ah yes - well that is a pretty straightforward scenario. (chuckle)...

But to be fair to Thebox I have found him at times to be weirdly inspirational in his meanderings through physics, and also of some benefit as to humour.  I can forgive a lot of a person who makes me laugh.

As to light only being observable when it has reached the observation reference frame - that is very interesting indeed I find, but not of relevance to the remit of this thread - other than the fact of it being true of course. :D

Box - 8 light minutes is a long distance away.  If the person you were observing waving were in the dark and you had a mega torch with which to illuminate your waving friend, you would have to wait 8 minutes after turning your torch on before the light reached your waving friend in order to illuminate him from his situation of being in the dark.

If we didn't have to wait 8 light minutes to see light emitted from the sun, we'd all be toast.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 01:31:54 by timey »
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #83 on: 28/08/2016 01:43:37 »


Box - 8 light minutes is a long distance away.  If the person you were observing waving were in the dark and you had a mega torch with which to illuminate your waving friend, you would have to wait 8 minutes after turning your torch on before the light reached your waving friend in order to illuminate him from his situation of being in the dark.

If we didn't have to wait 8 light minutes to see light emitted from the sun, we'd all be toast.

Believe me when I say I understand this also, I can not  help it if there is a contradiction.  My scenario gives a different result which is contradiction.


added- What is weird is that the object B arriving at the Sun is seen in the same time frame of reference as that of A, A would see B at 9:08 and B would see A at 9:08 , however if somebody was to raise a flag on arrival at B end,  this event would not be seen by A until 9:16, (scratches head going to bed).


« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 01:54:42 by Thebox »

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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #84 on: 28/08/2016 05:07:17 »
An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , B sees  A (at 9:00:01).

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , A sees  B (at 9:00:01).

True.

Why? How? What is your evidence for this?

The basis for the common understanding of everyone else, is the relationship between speed, distance and time. How do you refute this?

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #85 on: 28/08/2016 09:46:27 »
An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , B sees  A (at 9:00:01).

An event occurs at A (at 9:00:00), the object  B travels (  1 light second distance) , A sees  B (at 9:00:01).

True.

Why? How? What is your evidence for this?

The basis for the common understanding of everyone else, is the relationship between speed, distance and time. How do you refute this?

The evidence was once everyone admitted the simultaneous sight by using the relationship of speed, distance and time.


photon a to b = 1.s

photon b to a = 1.s

b travelling = 1.s

All 3 of these events happening simultaneously.


« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 09:50:26 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #86 on: 28/08/2016 10:31:14 »
diagram


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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #87 on: 28/08/2016 14:57:01 »
Basically if you were to look at the Sun the image you are seeing is an approx 8 minute old image and not the actual present image and you see the sun in its past
Yes, yes, yes!

however from a different look at the situation there is an apparent contradiction.
No, there is no contradiction

The evidence was once everyone admitted the simultaneous sight by using the relationship of speed, distance and time.
No-one has admitted simultaneous sight in the way you mean it

photon a to b = 1.s

photon b to a = 1.s

b travelling = 1.s

All 3 of these events happening simultaneously.
You are confusing events
In your scenario photons a to b and b to a travel simultaneously, starting their journey at 0900 however the photon b to a cannot show object b arriving at b, because the object is still travelling from a - it hasn't yet arrived and won't until 0900.01, it is a different event.
Only when it has arrived at b can a new photon start its journey to a, allowing observer at a to see the arrival at b. Total time 2s.

But to be fair to Thebox I have found him at times to be weirdly inspirational in his meanderings through physics, and also of some benefit as to humour.  I can forgive a lot of a person who makes me laugh.
I agree. It important in any subject to consider the not so obvious and explore possibilities. The ability to think through different scenarios is extremely valuable, however, it is also important to recognise when we have reached a dead end in a particular line of thinking.

This particular rabbit hole is a dead end and unless you intend sampling the bottle marked drink me it really isn't t worth spending more time in wonderland than necessary. I don't intend to.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #88 on: 29/08/2016 12:27:17 »

No, there is no contradiction


Colin!  I am not stupid, I have clearly shown you  with my word press link that I understand the present information. There is a contradiction Colin and it is not my failure in ''seeing'' this. The failure is on your part , not mine.

Please understand that I understand ''your'' information and working with only 1 second is not very difficult.

I will show you but you just keep seeing ''red'' and are not ''playing'' along so I can show you.


Do you agree that A and B both reflect light towards each other and the speed of the light is constant in either direction?

A yes or no is all that is needed, I will then ask the next question and so on until we reach a point where you will ''see'' the contradiction by all your yes answers.




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Offline phyti

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #89 on: 29/08/2016 17:08:15 »
Thebox;

Scientists using radar signals reflecting from a device left on the moon, have determined it is receding from earth about 1" per year.
Why do they have to wait 2.5 seconds for the emitted signal to return?
 

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #90 on: 29/08/2016 18:51:06 »
I will show you but you just keep seeing ''red''
No, I only see white light in my mind. We agreed to ignore red shift etc.

and are not ''playing'' along so I can show you.
The reason I'm not playing along is I can see where your confusion lies and to be honest it doesn't fuss me at all whether you can see it or not. In fact I don't think you ever will.
However, I will 'play along' one last time.

Do you agree that A and B both reflect light towards each other and the speed of the light is constant in either direction?
Yes
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #91 on: 29/08/2016 19:24:48 »


Do you agree that A and B both reflect light towards each other and the speed of the light is constant in either direction?
Yes

Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?



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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #92 on: 29/08/2016 21:25:20 »
Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?

"in the present" needs very careful definition.

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #93 on: 29/08/2016 22:40:15 »


Do you agree that A and B both reflect light towards each other and the speed of the light is constant in either direction?
Yes

Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?
The word "present" is frame dependent. Do you understand that each frame has it's own personal interpretation of the "present"? But right now, which is my personal "present", I'm simply to sick to argue with you or anyone else Mr. Box................Good day to all!
« Last Edit: 29/08/2016 22:43:11 by Ethos_ »
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #94 on: 29/08/2016 22:46:51 »
Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?
No I don't

The points made by pzkpfw and Ethos are both valid.
From my point of view you are talking about events on a timeline. Sometimes A and B are in the past, sometimes what you might call instantaneously 0. It is best to be specific and say what point on the timeline you are talking about rather than saying past or present.
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #95 on: 30/08/2016 12:09:40 »
Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?
No I don't

The points made by pzkpfw and Ethos are both valid.
From my point of view you are talking about events on a timeline. Sometimes A and B are in the past, sometimes what you might call instantaneously 0. It is best to be specific and say what point on the timeline you are talking about rather than saying past or present.

I will simplify for you so you can ignore the subjective of simultaneity.


Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?
« Last Edit: 30/08/2016 12:58:36 by Thebox »

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #96 on: 30/08/2016 12:13:13 »


Do you agree that A and B both reflect light towards each other and the speed of the light is constant in either direction?
Yes

Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?
The word "present" is frame dependent. Do you understand that each frame has it's own personal interpretation of the "present"? But right now, which is my personal "present", I'm simply to sick to argue with you or anyone else Mr. Box................Good day to all!


Get well soon Ethos. Thank you for participating.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #97 on: 30/08/2016 12:15:35 »
Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?

"in the present" needs very careful definition.


OK , noted that present definition insists on different time frames, i.e simultaneity, which will not be the case by the end of the thread and yes's by Colin.

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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #98 on: 30/08/2016 13:25:30 »
Do you agree that both A and B are in the present ?
No I don't

The points made by pzkpfw and Ethos are both valid.
From my point of view you are talking about events on a timeline. Sometimes A and B are in the past, sometimes what you might call instantaneously 0. It is best to be specific and say what point on the timeline you are talking about rather than saying past or present.

I will simplify for you so you can ignore the subjective of simultaneity.


Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?


I will predict your yes answer because it is undeniable because I have not got all the time in the world.

B moves away from A , the light between A and B and B and A is constant like you already yes answer shows .


Is there anything in this diagram you do not understand related to B moving away from A?


You can clearly see in this diagram that you still observe B in the present although B has moved away because the sight remains ''simultaneous'' between A and B because of the fact the timing remains constant and simultaneous, they always see each other at the same time and each others present.

If you do not agree with this , then where do you consider it is wrong?


It is hardly rocket science and I am sure anyone can work this out , 1 second of time passes when B is in motion, 1 second passes on A and B's clock,
(ignoring time dilation for now).
They both always see each other at the same time. It takes a total of one second for the light to travel either direction from A to B or vice versus. The light from A to B and vice versus travels from A to B or vice versus for the entire 1 second B is in motion.








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Offline Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #99 on: 30/08/2016 13:49:42 »
To simplify if you see something now in your present and it  moves away from you, you always see each other at the same time, I.e the present