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the problem is that both clocks, A and B, are "still existing", regardless of the dilatation, everything is submited to time, regardless of the dilatation, so there is 2 different constants of the same V, cause V=time, it was never the car that was accelerating, only seems to be like that to us... There is no cuch thing as "I'm walking", or "I'm driving", or "the car is moving at V", everything there is seems to be occuring inside time, and time can occur at different velocity but it's always proportional to the dilatation, no matter where interaction it is happening, not even the dilatation.... For as long your two clocks are the same clocks, they on itself would be readapted to the new dilatation, the only way to provide proof is to math and logic, but as for scientific proof, not likely, the two clock would have to remain the same clocks even when existing on different dilatations of space-time, and this is simple not possible, matter is in correlation with space-time, one cannot simple set two clocks apart of the dilatation to measure... Maybe if you keep the A clock at A dilatation but measuring the events of B, and the clock at B measuring the events on A, this with a considerable distance and dilatation bettween A and B, and certainly not over a planet like earth that is not a good place to test, cause it has a moon, it is translating, and has a silight eliptical orbit around the sun, and most improtant it is indeed very irregular without the water, so there would be many openign to miss interpretations... I believe that conduc such experments on the moon would be a much more easy task instead of using cars and roads... If the two clocks end up measuring the same time on different frames, witch is possible would confirm that time is constant, despise the dilatation, the only thing that would change would be speeds of things, in thsi case the car and the very clocks temselves, even if they are atomic clocks, it would be irrelevant, atomic is precise but is also submited to existence, since the clock is "made" it exists, cannot violate the general law and exist apart from the dilatation where it is occuring...
Yes, and most probably, but seems to be not that simple, two factors remain, a practica understandment of what does create time as a general constant
unless light, more especificaly "photon" were not wrong, only missinterpreteded...
I can't desagree on your question, I agree that time is contant to the dilatation, the same way light is, constant accelerating and dessacelerating speeds only when we are "framing" time on examples, when indeed, equal objects with equal acceleration, always, independently of where they exist inspace, are always moving at the same speed... About l'm not 100% convinced that light has it's speed cause it moves, as for now I agree with the speed of ligth provinient from the speed of the traveling massless photons, but not to confident on the "photon" concept...
If I understood you, space is static on your point of view, but when mass is presented, such as planets, suns, their interaction (with space), starts to set the static onto motion, in my point of view producing our local time( within the heliosphere) or you consider space to be static everywhere at any given instant?
One last consideration, when you check that time is constant despise the dilatation, reaching back, des it leads you to a universe that was composed for only energy, that become matter, that start a singularity and the acceleration of such object, started to decompose matter into energy leaving behind "this empty space blackground we see)? As if matter and planets are now only spearated fragments of once were a unique single think, and the ony reason empty space is now outhere is becose the singularities, have gradually deactivated all that energy/,atter, into all this dark matter? I ask cause most think on the reverse of this...
I could explain beter, but in resume, a big bang, not one that happened over nothing, but one singularity that happened at the very center of the already existing energy(that was already there), the singularity produced the very first empty space on the dimmension, and from that point forward, all the energy that was there was and still sppining in function of the singularity, as it was growng large the center was expanding in area, gradually loosing the acceleration on the center, in a short version all those galaxies existing inside the the center of the singularity, and all those spherical objects outhere, copies of the original dimmension, suns, planet, moons, even atoms, dispise the composition, being only ordinary atempts (local) of the original universe... Time as being result of the general acceleration of the whole universe...
In the twin paradox, the two twins begin on earth. One twin is placed in a rocket and is given relativistic velocity. The moving twin eventually returns to the earth, where he is now younger, compared to the twin, who had remained stationary on earth.
In the twin paradox, the two twins begin on earth. One twin is placed in a rocket and is given relativistic velocity. The moving twin eventually returns to the earth, where he is now younger, compared to the twin, who had remained stationary on earth.
That being the case, I often wondered whether the universal Doppler shift assumption is correct. The reason is, distances will reverse in the twin paradox, but only time will show a permanent change. The question is, is the red shift based on the time shift; frequency shift? The wavelength is the dependent variable; reversible, and not the active variable. It follows the lingering time shift so the product of frequency and wavelength has to equal the speed of light.
When space time is more dilated
Quote from: GoC on 07/10/2016 14:42:54 When space time is more dilated 0 can't dilate, any measurement after 0 becomes instant memory, no matter how fast or slow the rate of measurement or the length of measurement.
Not exactly, it could be possible if we change the conception of where we exist on the universe, could be hat it is indeed 0 and can't dilatate (to minus), but if everything that is is occuring inside the center of a singularity (that is spining), it would change the grid from static, as result time wouldn't be slowing down when near massive objects, what occurs is that at the center of each masive object time would be null, more than this, (no time at all, at the center),
acceleration and electromagnetism, yes, but times seems to require direct interaction with space energy, witch wouldn't be happening at the center... For time t exist, someplace needs empty space, a considerable layer of dese atomic structure with almost no space within the atoms, would virtualy split the universe in two, the outher one could energy and the inner one (tiny fraction that was split), the opossit, hot and expanding, the problem and reason why planets do not explode, seems to be that electromagnetism and charger, provinient form the exitement of this very expansion (sppining), is bounding everything toguether... Only woundering, the inner core expands constantly, as muchas it does the sppining is absorbed by the outhercore, the absorbsion produces electromagnetsm that bound and prevent the planet from expanding too fast, and as long as this cycle keeps happening outher space will remain in constant interaction with the object, compressing itself by being atracted to this... The point is, outer space would be the resting one (+), dilatation would start to occur in function and towards the massive object, becoming (minus-), zero dilatation is possible(when the mass is proportional), but not possible to happen from outside in the body, space has no barriers on the exterior, it simple can't reach even 0 dilatation only on the exterior of the body on normal conditions, to achieve 0 it would requeire a physical barrier of density (mater) to be happening isolated from the whole...For more incomplete and ilogical that it sounds, raises the question, "energy ony became mater becose of time?"and if so..."when matter gets too near to a black hole(considering it, the surrownding of a black hole, as a point of -0 dilatation, where time basicaly does not exist, is all that mater not desapearing on a dimmensional magical hole, but simple, being deactivated from its condition of mater,(before it could even reach the neutron star) and so converted back into space energy?" Could this be the reason why we imagine that mater is falling inside (being stored), when instead it is simple being converted into space energy (before reaching the neutron star)? One consideration, a question, "only for an instant assuming" black holes (neutron stars) as to be acting as ordinary innercores, but one that due it's composition can sustain itself (acceleration) even when in direct interaction with space(without the necessity of a crost), could be the case that the sppining of the neutron star is so fast that the acceleration of space surpases the speed of ligh (density of the medium), in other words, creating a "split" on a point of (minus -0 dilatation) AND since such dilatation should not be possible to exist, by convinience the neutron star able to still existing "isolated" from the whole? Something like, the neutron star, followed by a "spherical barrier of -1 dilatation"(witch means no space existing on that area, true emptiness), followed by the outherspace that we all know and see (enveloping it)? The question is, something that surpasses the speed of light, would not leave this unverse, but simple coexist with it, but being completly apart of it, surrounded by it, but not submited to it and its energy, including time? -0 dilatation could exist cause it could be represented by a "split" separating this universe we see into two pieces(external and internal, the whole exterior universe, and the interior beyond anything that reached and broke that very limit (speed of light)... Like a bubble of gas inside another bubble of the same gas, separated only by the acceleration happening inside of the secund bubble, so fast that it is compressing tge exteror towards it, and expanding anything on the interior "due acceleration' reaching 0(null), a little bit more energy, and it will unbalance between expansion and compression, but for all effects, -0 dilatation of space, is one correct into assume -0 dilation is represented by a rupture betwenn the exterior universe and the object that is accelerating?
First you have to define time before you can describe time affects. The reason you do not understand Alex is because you are not using the same definition of time. Alex has a deeper understanding of time than just <it is>. You may be at the limit of your depth of understanding. As apparently I am also. We are each fixed in our unshakable opinion. I believe both Alex and I feel time is condition caused by space separate from macro mass. There is observation and subjective reasoning for observations it is in the form of theories. Relativity being the best theory because it has passed every test so far. This is a theory based on postulates and not mechanics. When mechanics are removed it opens the door to magical causes. The Copenhagen interpretation opened that door very wide. Multi verse, time travel, worm holes and even the big bang is the result. They are all something from nothing magic. Those that are smarter than I came up with it so it must be true. In the past the so called smartest men of their time voted on the big bang. There were 13 men and the vote was 12 to 1 in favor so it passed for the cause of the creation of mass. I might also remind you that it was a Catholic Priest who named it the Big Bang. He probably wanted to tell science it took 7 days to complete. Some one could have come up with a stat that would have confirmed it but then again the concept of a day would have to have been pre-defined. I grew up with religion from my mother and science with my father. Obviously my father won my mind. Back to proofs. There are no proofs period without a mechanical basis. Mathematicians believe math is mechanical. And yes it is mechanical. A theory has to follow math to be possible but impossible theories can also follow mathematics. Like Einstein I have faith in Relativity. Main stream fails the Relativity postulates. Main streams mechanical structure is non existent so it opens the door to not following the postulates. Lets take light going down a gravity well. Main stream will suggest light increases momentum to be blue shifted. Of course by their interpretation that is the only way the observation could be interpreted by their understanding of their standard model. They violated the constant speed of light postulate in order to maintain their model. That observation should have destroyed there standard model in favor of a model that included red shift without a SR velocity increase of light. This red shift in GR is described in the gamma term for dilation. Space is being expanded by this gamma term (dilation). Than we have to ask what is being dilated? What ever is being dilated is directly affecting light propagation and electron cycle time in what is considered a frame. Mass is dilated to fill a larger volume of space so your measuring stick becomes larger. A larger measuring stick will measure a meter longer than a smaller measuring stick. Your measure of time by either light distance or electron cycle ticks slower to match the measuring stick in your frame. The measured speed of light in every frame in a vacuum is measured to be the same. That the distance measured is not the same is what allows Euclidean mathematics to remain valid. Main stream suggests the magic of contraction of the universe and use the muon as proof. The muon has to slow down in order to react with its new environment of the mass on Earth rather than the energy of space. Space energy has to control the distance and propagation of light and cycle of the electron to measure the speed of light in a vacuum the same in every frame. Or you can maintain a belief in coincidence of magic.When you move a standardized spectrum detector cell down a gravity well the standardization changes its size to the newly dilated frame. Light used for the standardization higher in less dilated space will appear blue shifted to the more dilated position of the detector. The reverse will be a red shifted detection. The speed of light remains the same because the spin of energy particles remain the same. Space energy is an organized pattern while mass is a disorganized pattern causing friction with fundamental energy. That friction is what we describe as energy. Our mass energy is just a conduit for space time energy, zero point energy or Dark mass energy. Name it anything you like other than main streams model of energy from magic.Do I know why the spin energy for the motion of time exists? Absolutely not. That depth of understanding has to be relegated back to the God of the unknown.
Then there would be two votes against instead of one. You have not demonstrated a deep understanding of relativity and appear to be a denier of relativity. As such the lack of understanding the observations that agree with the postulates and none that do not agree would suggest your opinion on relativity is invalid.You assign fact without enough observations to prove your point has validity.
the box" it is a fact you can not observe free space has any sort of motion "Can you observe gamma rays? That is unobservable yet a physical reality.
", it is a fact that no aether has been detected"I would suggest light being detected proves a type of Ether.
"There is no evidence of expanding space"The slowing of the tick rate of a clock in GR
I do not have faith in the big bang and do not have an opinion on the size of the universe
Quote\We can detect gamma rays? But you are adding something to free space, you have to think the void of space that is ''behind''/''underneath'' everything./QuoteI do not believe space is a true void.Quote\Just no, a clock or rate has no relationship to free space. /Quote It has everything to do with space.Quote\Interesting, you understand that distance is defined by the last ''piece'' of visual matter? /Quote The last piece of a visual image measured through relativity for distance.There is something you can explain to me. How do you frame quotes?
[Quote\] For what reason would anyone presume free space was not a void?
Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:01:40[Quote\] For what reason would anyone presume free space was not a void? Because energy is of space not mass.
Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:08:00Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:01:40[Quote\] For what reason would anyone presume free space was not a void? Because energy is of space not mass.and why would you think that energy does not occupy a spacial void?
Quote from: Thebox on 11/10/2016 18:51:41Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:08:00Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:01:40[Quote\] For what reason would anyone presume free space was not a void? Because energy is of space not mass.and why would you think that energy does not occupy a spacial void?Gravity(X)
Quote from: Alex Siqueira on 11/10/2016 20:08:21Quote from: Thebox on 11/10/2016 18:51:41Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:08:00Quote from: GoC on 11/10/2016 01:01:40[Quote\] For what reason would anyone presume free space was not a void? Because energy is of space not mass.and why would you think that energy does not occupy a spacial void?Gravity(X)gravity is a product of mass, mass occupies space , I see no reason why space itself can not be a void , absolute emptiness.
That something we call space could be comprised of the smallest unit of existence, not holding mass or energy (hence undetectable)
yes, product of masses, but not on the macro mass, "the gravity" is happening right at space, the friction of macro mass with space, releases energy from space,
But energy could occupy space, I ''see'' space to be a blank canvass and all that is of ''matter'' is of ''creation'' that occupies free space of a void.
If time really slowed down , then it would take longer to get somewhere and the velocity would also have to slow down of the moving Caesium atom.
Quote from: Thebox on 05/10/2016 03:25:56If time really slowed down , then it would take longer to get somewhere and the velocity would also have to slow down of the moving Caesium atom.This is a very important point and the fact that you are considering it demonstrates your intellect. Don't let anyone say otherwise. Think about this a little more.
Well, seems that Time was stated as derivation from motion, thus the conclusion of the Caesium atom is backwards... Time should have slowed down in function of the (now) velocity of the Caesium atoms, due dilatation of space(time), where the measurement is occurring... Isn't it?
No , the frequency of the Caesium atom is dependent to the atom and not dependent of space although ''things'' in space do affect the Caesium frequency. However ''things'' occupy space, ''things'' with motion that can be timed, timed not being the same as time. The mechanics of timing ''things'' do not interfere with absolute time and space, time and space being a whole and interwoven as a dimensional whole.
I came to believe that spinning C is derivation of higgs field (as it is now), higgs field is setting constants on everything but energy, each particle being interconnected one with the other by their own fields, spinning at the same rate, just like perfect clocks, such particles do not experience time, although their interaction with different proportions(field) cause a delay on both as higgs is constantly seeking balance between sipping and centrifugal force... To really understand time in our scale, one need to perfectly combine GR with QM, but the still missing piece is what is causing the C pattern? Einstein thought the universe was static cause everyone always considered milky way as being the universe, he could "see" the infinite continuous void of empty space beyond our galaxy horizontal plate. I mean he obviously knew that "space" was infinite, eternal as he said... I can't let go from this idea, that if he knew that universe is formed by hundreds of galaxies, he would once again reach the same conclusion but with the correct information, that universe is in fact an expanding event, a field that is "still" expanding (dark energy), but nonetheless a expanding field much like the first few moments of a nova... I wonder that his conclusion back there would be again that "space" is infinite and eternal, and universe is a still expansion momentum of an ordinary nova, perhaps among many others... For me this is relevant for my source of C, time as a whole entity, and also quantum (engine) lies much beyond our physical universe, and behaves much as a black hole/particle does... For me that, wherever it may be, is giving to a frozen space the C pattern converting its pure state of frozen energy into a kinetic pattern of this spinning C, and is doing that trough higgs field... The only truly linear motion on C "seems" to be energy cause is able to ignore higgs field... Clarifying it, everything is moving on a straight line, it's higgs field that is offering to mass a point of reference, changing linear to still sppin, both being the same... When one suggest that time is a whole existence of C, independent of the Caesium atom, I have to try to implement that universe is not finite nor all that is, but a bigger solar system witch all the planets and stars have went super nova, a singularity should have being there at a virtual center, but being so the field should not be expanding and much less with an increasing rate, seems to be the case that all the galaxies are just conserving momentum and that our singularity at center is less activated or even completely dispersed into heat trough out space... This would explain why distances are increasing, the speed of the event also increasing... I'm suggesting a scenario similar to the delay earth would felt before have noticed that our sun was gone.. Evens so factors like time and sipping C still constant... Black holes should be able to spin the electron, also mess up with space on the quantum level and produce time, but only as local, as sun is for solar system, and super massive black hole is for galaxy... The proportions are too chaotic to work homogeneously as those constants are, blue and red shift seems to be like interference on those constant patterns(field), as GoC said, "increasing the distance of the jump", expanding the field much beyond its capacity(C), if expanded enough it should loose the color light quality and become gin-clear(spectrum) as The box mentioned once. And eventually even milky way itself will reach the moment where it will feel that the center was gone, much speculation, but it's my understatement of sipping C and time, if time is an whole entity: Or it is a big dimension, or it's a product of expansion and quantum mechanics, or if time is in fact a "final product" motion, and proportional and constant as C, I become in conflict within myself, that the "engine" of C, thus time, lies much beyond our sight and understanding, maybe beyond universe itself... If not possible, if universe is all there is, undependable of it's size, time has to be a "final product" of the quantum mechanics when submitted to our universal expansion... The sipping particles does not bound to time, but inadvertently when you add expansion (motion/C) to the environment, inadvertently end up producing time on our scale, any delay on quantum mechanics, would inevitable result in slower rate in our scale.... If one is to thing about it, time is a primordial scale on itself, if time want but a product, a measurable one, there would be no need for scales, nor dimensions, everything would be frozen, nothing would ever have size or substance, time is there as a ruler, between scales, so universe do not mess up and accidental forces every planet or any given mass to behave as a black hole does... As much more one things about this, even being speculation, more plausible the jump of the particles are as important and fundamental as anything else.... My true question is why space is at C, without this visualization is very unlikely that humanity will ever figure it all out, we advance by observation, how do we observe beyond what we would never be able to observe? "A space that has no particles/matter, does not requires existence of time" Everything that is would be energy, without motion, without C... As long one does not have the answer, I agree with both versions too...
Much appreciated, I do like it, The ''blackness'' we observe between distance galaxies is actually daylight, but there is nothing large enough or reflecting enough radians of light to be observed by our conventional present technology. " About C patter, it only cross my mind when I decide to consider space as an infinite field, where the "momentum universe" (big bang/nova) is still "expanding"... My concept of expansion if surelly present when thinking about blackholes as centrifugal force, spin as one would say... But I do consider that all this field we call universe is a momentum of a nova expansion... If space and time are existing in coorelation, I do accept that the reagion of any nova when the star explodes is temporarily submited to a expansion, and on that few secunds, the interior experience a local existence of time, different from the one on the exterior... AQs I do wonder we are expericing our from universe... I see space as a void, altough when I do accept universe as a limited C existence that is still expanding over nothing, than I do not need that pattern, it must be somehow related with sppining particles and blackholes on control... But if I do accept universe as being a still expanding super nova, an ordinary momentum over a "already existing" field of "energy", I tend to seek for a more deeper resolution... If universe is nothing but a still expanding momentum of an ordinary nova, over a space that was already there, light does not make sense... For so, I'm considering both factors, sppin and expansion, as being of different origins... C would be the expansion itself, it belongs to a still borning universe, altough for me the spin, the whole "engine" of quantum mechanics, was already there much earlier than universe, I relate with empty space all the patterns of quantum mechanics... In a sort version i'm wondering that quantum mechanics dictates and operate particles and energy, on and from the void, and a good topic for that is both gravitron and higgs boson... See I do believe that C is for expansion(local/universe), as sppining "C" is for (space/energy), one existing and coodepending on each other, but nonentless one being a constant, and other being a momentum... If one is to reverse our so called big bang, I do believe that void would be all there was, frozen energy, a higgs field different from our own on the present, a frozen entity of energy as a whole existence, with no scales and without time... one could consider that as a frozen particle, that is vast as infinity... Somethign was happen or started to happen on the center, maybe from the interaction between two dimentions. Yes this is merely speculation, but in terms of beyond the existence of the universe, basically one had a perfect, predictable entity, if there was a pattern presented it should have being opossit charge and balance... I do make an Idea of what happened, there's no way to see or to know for us. The point is: When I consider space as an whole entity eternal and infite, two possibilities come to mind.1- "space" has a structure with a virtual center that is constanty cicling the entity, twisting and stretching it, spliting it into fractions (quanta), determining all the constants... i do picture something, like a rupture, or an eye of a hurricane, with a very eliptical shape, but that more than sppin is also sort of rolling space in as if it was a hope, stretching it, raging it into smal pieces, on the quantum level... Imagine something like the momentum when a black hole is feeding on a gass cloud, now imagine that: A sort of singularity that grew so wide and so large, that is started to work as an ring that started to propagate itself as it feeds on the fabric itself... A easy way is to watch a spherical rock hitting a lakes surface, the wave is propagating trough the fabric, well on this scenario, the wave is the ring, ans is propagting itself troght the lake... Messing with it from inside out, stetching and sppining all water in there atributing to it a ciclic expansion and twisting proprieties... Imagien that we (universe) is alreadyexisting and born from inside out this already expanding ring. Such ring would be feeding from primordial energy, expanding itself, lefting behind only its patterns constantly submiting the interior to it, and also forming this void, tht for me on this scenario is nothing less than knetic energy from this very expansion... This red shift on thsi scenario seems trully to be as you mentioned, perhaps by very different reasons, but nentless I agree that the "gin-clear" out there is also red shift, more precisely what happen with photons beyond C, the colour beyond the red shift, that is also happening even where there is nothing to see... There is nothing to see for the distance is to great and C is constant... The secund cnfiguration would make universe become a simple faction of a eliptical hyper horizontal disk, of a super massive singularity, white hole or primordial black hole made of light, I'm not fan of this theory for it seems not to provide a correct expansion... I do believe that black holes are absolute, but there should be a point where not even the field can handle it, and with enought particle present, as on a begining, a black hole could theoreticaly grow into a spiral ring expanding, maybe even more than one, that is devouring space itself, and lefting this space that we do know on the interior... The faster expansion, seems to be the same way they use to calculate PI and diameter of stars, it seems to also explain a faster expansion, that is infact a bigger diameter, and not altering the cosntants or the speed of the expansion itself, only the diameter of it's edge...I do not accept on this scenario, universe to be rare and unique, it is simple a expanding momentum of a nova, surounded by a super intercaled void, till we "pyshicaly" reach another universe or star and so on and on... I agree with the tinny size and bang, but I do believe that what caused universe to be born from that point of super density, was infact the "space expansion itself" it crossed over it at C, perhaps is still occuring, and crashed all those super massive objects, that we now see as galaxies... Much speculation, but my big bang, starts with lots of ordinaries stars, that where ripped apart by an sudent expansion on the blackground, latter on absorving the "now" C partterns resulting on the mechanics we do experience today... Is speculation, but for me "C" lies beyond the universe, it's a propriety of space itself, or it is a product of a expansive structure at the edges of "space" that is ripping energy and forming this void with all its patterns... Time as a whole entity would also be resultant of this spiral structure... As it it more a conversion than a destruction of something, just like a black hole it should be converting primordial energy into this ever growing void, as a ordinary black hole would be doing with a galaxy... So C and all its properties would be of space and on it, matter is something that was already there, or pieces that somehow survived the expansion without be consumed... In resume this is only necessary when I do consider space as eternal, it needs a structure, again, if universe is allthat is, there is nothing to worry about, for C would be again, the universal expansion over nothing, and quantum mechanics was always based on probabilities since day one... Somehow I do not believe that, but is too soon for take it as a conclusion, for the moment I share the same space at C that everybody does... The only aspect that does not match with this are the constants, universe "seems" to be to chaotic to control such perfect patterns... I'm working but where higgs enter on this: Higgs would be the primordial energy tring to come back to its resting form, always trying to conservate energy, constantly trying to rest, not sure becouse this act itself could be gravity, the original entity trying to rest on the "after" expansion. As ona large black hole that is eery time less destructive as it grows, perhaps even if expanded enought, alowing particles to reapear.... For me on a sort seculation, dark energy and dark matter origins, as space expands, the interior is becoming back to its original state, that should be the general source of gravity and expontaneous formation of particles... I'm no scientst, so I still have a long way to go on those thoughts... I'm trying to understand why a inactive photon was never considered to be a gravitron, a photon that is part of this "gin -clear", as on if photons was serving as for light and gravity...