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Whether individual paths or a closed course, the ratio of emitted signals to received signals is what's stated with the drawing, and none are 1:2 or 2:1. It seems like you are using instantaneous light speed. The only thing conserved is the exchange of 4 yr and 2 yr.

The accounts are not false, but valid, since any inertial frame can serve as a reference. I.e. there is no need for an absolute rest frame. That is the 'principle of relativity'.

Hi GoC,If I'm understanding you to any extent, you appear to have backtracked on length-contraction by using some kind of "aura" effect on the MMX. Is that actually what you're saying, and if so, do you think there would be length-contraction acting on it if the apparatus was in deep space and moving at high speed?

The two atoms emit their own light at their own frequency, and they have to move so that the light from the other atom looks as if it had the same frequency as theirs. If the left atom has moved towards the right one before its light had the time to reach the right one, that right one will move away from the left one after a while, and it will do so also before its light had the time to reach the left one, so that left one will also move forward after a while. We can very well see how contraction would happen between the two, but it is less clear how dilation would happen. What seems clear to me though is that, even if it happened, it wouldn't affect the contraction or the speed of the system, because it wouldn't affect the synchronization between the two atoms.

Diverging, A receives 12 months signals from B in 40.4 months.B receives 7.6 months signals from A in 12 months.You cannot get a 2:1 or 1:2 ratio from that!

The drawings correctly show 3.73 between signals when separating and .27 between signals when closing, for both A and B, when using the relativistic Doppler expressions.

The MMX null result may just be an Earth phenomenon.

You may not have read yet how I describe the motion between my two atoms, so here it is again:We have two atoms A and B that are part of the same molecule. The time interval represents the time the information takes between the two atoms at t0. We accelerate A for a while and observe what happens to the system from t0 to t7. The blue arrows represent the blueshifted information that travels from A to B, and the red arrows represent the redshifted information that travels from B to A. The acceleration of A begins at t0 and ends at t4, so because of the time gap, the acceleration of B begins at t1 and ends at t5. After t5, the two atoms travel at the same speed, but we can easily see that the distance between them has contracted, and we can follow its progression during the acceleration. At that moment, the information on the future speed of each atom with regard to aether is situated between them in the form of doppler effect. The main idea is that, without doppler effect, there would be no motion between bonded particles, so there would be no motion either at our scale. I insist on the fact that we have to exert a force to introduce that doppler effect between them, and that this force represents mass. So with the same principle, we explain mass, motion and contraction. Of course motion is a bit more complicated this way, but we can discard the complicated Higgs, and we can study more closely what happens with motion at the micro scale, which could help us to link Relativity theory to Quantum theory.As you can see, I use only immediately observable things, and you use entropy, which is not immediately observable, at least for an atom.

Quote from: Le Repteux You may not have read yet how I describe the motion between my two atoms, so here it is again: We have two atoms A and B that are part of the same molecule. The time interval represents the time the information takes between the two atoms at t0. We accelerate A for a while and observe what happens to the system from t0 to t7. The blue arrows represent the blueshifted information that travels from A to B, and the red arrows represent the redshifted information that travels from B to A. The acceleration of A begins at t0 and ends at t4, so because of the time gap, the acceleration of B begins at t1 and ends at t5. After t5, the two atoms travel at the same speed, but we can easily see that the distance between them has contracted, and we can follow its progression during the acceleration. At that moment, the information on the future speed of each atom with regard to aether is situated between them in the form of doppler effect. The main idea is that, without doppler effect, there would be no motion between bonded particles, so there would be no motion either at our scale. I insist on the fact that we have to exert a force to introduce that doppler effect between them, and that this force represents mass. So with the same principle, we explain mass, motion and contraction. Of course motion is a bit more complicated this way, but we can discard the complicated Higgs, and we can study more closely what happens with motion at the micro scale, which could help us to link Relativity theory to Quantum theory. You say that the red arrows represent redshifted information, but it looks to me as if that would be blueshifted too because particle A is running into it.

You may not have read yet how I describe the motion between my two atoms, so here it is again: We have two atoms A and B that are part of the same molecule. The time interval represents the time the information takes between the two atoms at t0. We accelerate A for a while and observe what happens to the system from t0 to t7. The blue arrows represent the blueshifted information that travels from A to B, and the red arrows represent the redshifted information that travels from B to A. The acceleration of A begins at t0 and ends at t4, so because of the time gap, the acceleration of B begins at t1 and ends at t5. After t5, the two atoms travel at the same speed, but we can easily see that the distance between them has contracted, and we can follow its progression during the acceleration. At that moment, the information on the future speed of each atom with regard to aether is situated between them in the form of doppler effect. The main idea is that, without doppler effect, there would be no motion between bonded particles, so there would be no motion either at our scale. I insist on the fact that we have to exert a force to introduce that doppler effect between them, and that this force represents mass. So with the same principle, we explain mass, motion and contraction. Of course motion is a bit more complicated this way, but we can discard the complicated Higgs, and we can study more closely what happens with motion at the micro scale, which could help us to link Relativity theory to Quantum theory.

You should also consider the case where particle B moves off first (moving away from particle A) to see whether particle A also responds appropriately (and whether you again get length-contraction).

B leaves A at .866, and sends a signal once a sec. The 1st occurs at Bt=1 ( At=2). Transit time for light is 2(.866)/1 = 1.73. A receives 1st at At= 3.73. The doppler ratio is 3.73:1.

A also sends a signal once a sec. The 1st occurs at At=1 (Bt=.5). Transit time for light is .866/(1-.866) = 6.46. B receives signal at At=7.46. (Bt=3.73). The doppler ratio is the same. Each perceives the same Doppler effect.

The 2:1 ratio would occur if the relative speed was .6c.Show how you conclude it’s 2:1 or 1:2.

The 2:1 ratio comes from averaging the number of beeps while the rockets are approaching each other with the number of beeps while they're moving apart (over the same length of time). As I said before: "If you hear 3.73 beeps in a length of time t (measured by your clock) while your rocket approaches the other rocket (and reaching it at the end of that time), and you then hear 0.27 beeps in the the length of time t as you move away from the other rocket (having passed it), you have heard 4 beeps in time 2t. That is a 2:1 ratio, although it's the opposite way round from the one I'd expected..."

The calculated avg.freq. for B is 4/2 = 2.The calculated avg.freq. for A is 2/4 = 1/2.This verifies the conservation of the number of signals.

These are not perceived real time freq. was my point.

There must be an error in that or you could tell which rocket's moving - the perceived frequency rate must be the same for both rockets (taking into account the clock of one rocket running half as fast as the other).

There is a way to know which ship is moving faster than the other. You each send a signal to the other at one signal per your second. Then you send a radar type signal to bounce back to you. In this way you can subtract one signal from the other to get the speed of the other vs. your speed relative when you compare distance between returned signals vs. your second. This would only work when you are on the same line. Each of you would measure a difference between the sent signal and the returned signal frequency between beeps. Then you compare your red and blue shifts in your signals...

Quote from: GoC on 28/06/2017 13:34:12There is a way to know which ship is moving faster than the other. You each send a signal to the other at one signal per your second. Then you send a radar type signal to bounce back to you. In this way you can subtract one signal from the other to get the speed of the other vs. your speed relative when you compare distance between returned signals vs. your second. This would only work when you are on the same line. Each of you would measure a difference between the sent signal and the returned signal frequency between beeps. Then you compare your red and blue shifts in your signals...You obviously haven't checked out your claim by doing the maths. If you had, you'd know that it won't work.

I went on a french scientific forum this afternoon,...

... and I asked why they didn't use simulations like yours to convince people. While answering questions, I realized that you did not put enough importance on the reason why it is always the twin that turns around that ages less. When it is him that is at rest and the earth traveling, you say that he will have to travel faster to catch up with the earth at the end, thus you change reference frames without saying why. I suspect it is because we can't accelerate without knowing that we did, so the twin on the earth cannot say he did, but the people at the forum will probably tell me that acceleration is not part of SR, so what am I going to tell them? That they were wrong?

Why do the clocks tick at the same rate (electron cycle) at sea level? How do they know to stay in sync?

(2) If the planet's moving throughout, the rocket decelerates to a halt while the planet continues to move through the frame of reference in which the rocket is now stationary, then the rocket accelerates for twice as long as its original deceleration to set off in pursuit of the planet, closes in on it (moving at high speed through our chosen frame of reference), then decelerates so that it can land on the planet. Again, at no point in this have we changed the frame used for the analysis of events.