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In the past the qualified people believed if you sailed to far you would fall off the Earth. The qualified people do not understand the reason for gravity and magnetism. I believe I represent Einstein's SR.
Frames are distinguished by the clocks tick rate. At c there is no tick rate. That is the absolute frame just not what you were expecting.
God's eye is not relativity.
Quote from: David Cooper on 06/08/2017 21:35:54You're not even in the argument - you still misunderstand the basics. Forget about what can be seen and what can't be seen. The issue is about when things happen relative to other events at other locationsThat is not relativity.
You're not even in the argument - you still misunderstand the basics. Forget about what can be seen and what can't be seen. The issue is about when things happen relative to other events at other locations
It doesn't matter why the electron moves? You fail to include all in your understanding. That is why you misunderstand SR.
There is a base of understanding you are missing if you do not understand fractal. Gulliver's travels is based on fractal views.
Quote from: David Cooper on 06/08/2017 21:35:54and all but one of them get it wrong because they base the measurements on a false assumptionOr you on false understanding. If you do not understand the fractal aspect of the view in a frame than you do not understand relativity.
and all but one of them get it wrong because they base the measurements on a false assumption
Quote from: David Cooper on 06/08/2017 21:35:54This just shows how far you are from even beginning to understand the issue I've been discussing. You're fixated on light communication limitations and can't see beyond that.Which is the basis of relativity.
This just shows how far you are from even beginning to understand the issue I've been discussing. You're fixated on light communication limitations and can't see beyond that.
Quote from: David Cooper on 06/08/2017 21:35:54That's as good as claiming that the universe doesn't exist.Hardly, no view is of the present.
That's as good as claiming that the universe doesn't exist.
You really need to warn people whenever you tell them what SR says, is and does that you are giving them a 3D variant of it which has an absolute frame and which is really a mangled understanding of LET.
You have an infinite number of such "frames" all moving relative to each other, so it's not a frame
God views are simply representations showing things with the communication delays in seeing the action removed. They can even be taken as photos using referrence-frame cameras. They provide clear views of the action and make it much easier to calculate how relativity relates to everything.
Of course it is. You're not doing relativity but are mistaking communication delay rubbish for it instead!
There really isn't any point in discussing relativity with you any further if you still haven't worked out what it is!
I've never read it - heard a few chunks narrated long ago but it wasn't interesting. I shouldn't really ask, but in for a penny, in for a pound: what has fractal got to do with relativity?
Hardly - relativity can be understood from the God view (as in standard representations of frames of reference), and communication delays are just a layer of obfuscation on the top which you need to understand how to calculate around. Your understanding of relativity is completely ****ed because you've mistaken something else entirely for it
There is a God view of the present for the frame of your choice which shows predictions of the current state of that frame. It can be photographed by a reference-frame camera, so it's a real view.
Mode 2 and mode 3 are the same, same locations and times for each event.
In mode 1, the rockets are moving in time to agree with their dilated readings. That's unreal, and why they arrive before the planet. Your misinterpretation of time dilation affecting the motion of the object, is incorrect, which is the cause of 'event meshing failures'. Time dilation affects internal processes within the moving frame. Remember, time of perception is historical, after the event has occurred, and therefore canít influence its happening.
Events un-happening, occur in your simulation, not the real world.End of story.
My understanding of a Gods view is of the present which is impossible for mere mortals. We can only view relativity.
Simultaneity of Relativity? Rubbish?
If you believe the cause of motion of the electron is irrelevant than so is your understanding.
Its the basis for all frames measuring the same speed of light in a vacuum. Our view is distorted fractally in every frame. Expand your understanding you are fairly bright.
And no view is valid because of simultaneity of relativity.
You can take a picture of the night sky with all the galaxies but they are not where we view them. So in what way is the picture of our universe a valid representation of positions?
Lets explore the clocks ticking at the same rate at sea level and the MMX results. North and south would be the same distance traveled for light because energy rotates with the Earth. The proof is the rotation with the Earth's path and against the Earth's path around the sun does not affect tick rate.
Now we determine East and West. The distance because light is independent of the source changes in the East and West directions by the rotation of the Earth. So the extra distance west to east is exactly auto corrected for east to west.
Planets are a specific case of c+v and c-v. The speed of light being constant but the source moving away and moving towards the return point. The energy rotating with the Earth creates a fixed point in space for light to return. This would work for any angle you rotate the MMX experiment. All because clocks tick at the same rate at sea level on the earth locally. You cannot find a fixed point in space. Results would be different.
While all clocks at sea level tick at the same rate in the frame of reference in which the centre of the Earth is stationary (which it cannot always be), they will vary for all other frames, so the rotation does affect tick rate
Auto corrected how? It isn't. Light takes longer to complete the trip one way than the other, so we know that on average, light moves faster through that arm of the MMX in one direction than the other, and that would lengthen the total time taken for it to complete the round trip if that arm didn't contract in length.
The only difference with doing the experiment on the Earth as opposed to in space is that gravity slows light down for both arms, but it slows them both equally and therefore doesn't affect the result.
Your confusing GR with SR. The SR affect is clocks ticking at the same rate along with the GR rotating the energy stationary to your position.
Its not faster because energy is stationary with the position on the Earth.
All directions are stationary to the point of origin.
You do not understand the energy issue rotating with the planet.
I'm not confusing anything - you're failing to factor in the difference between an Earth rotating round a stationary centre and rotating round a moving centre - the former case will have all clocks at sea level ticking in sync while the latter case cannot do so (except on average over multiples of 23 hours 56 minutes).
Voodoo. Light completes a trip round the Earth faster westwards than eastwards, so there is no weird effect equalising it to make an uncontracted MMX arm produce a null result.
I understand that your disproven nonsense doesn't work.
That would lead to light overtaking light if the sources move at different speeds relative to each other.
The spectrum Energy moves with mass. North and south directions move light equally in those directions. The distances are the same in either direction. East and West the distances change because you have light chasing and closing on an object. That is not contraction of a physical object!
Of course!!! But you are not doing that in the MMX.
Light moves more quickly (on average) westwards relative to the material of the surface of the Earth that it is passing than it does eastwards. We know that because it takes it longer to complete a circuit eastwards. That means there is no magical equalisation of speed in the two directions relative to the arm of the MMX alligned east-west, and that means it can only produce a null result if that arm contracts.
Really? How does that work? the arm of the MMX can be directly next to a fibre optic cable going right round the world in which we see the signal taking longer to complete a circuit one way than the other and you say that the light in the MMX isn't bound by the same speeds? You have light in the MMX overtaking light in the cable in one direction and being overtaken by it in the opposite direction, and that just won't work.
There is a consequence to clocks ticking at the same rate at sea level you definitely do not understand. The energy level at sea level is the same all over the planet. Your belief is the Earth is a frame where the distance for light is the same for a fixed position of objects. The physical object does not contract to make the Null result. Lets circle the Earth at the equator eight times with fiber optic cable. Your idea suggests the optic wire shrinks in the westward direction. Ok lets explore that idea we have the shrunken optic cable. We have a second optic cable attached right next to it. A double optic cable if you will. So if one shrinks so does the other. We send light in opposite directions. There is still a difference in timing with the two opposite directions. Wrap it 10000 times and the difference accumulates. That is not a Null result and the physical object does not contract more and more with each cycle.
Yes really. The MMX was two way where one direction exactly adjusts for the opposite direction by distance traveled extra in the eastward direction longer and the distance traveled in the westward direction shorter. Its as simple as that and you introduce magical contraction of a physical object.
If you lay a cable round the Earth, it will go down in ready-contracted form wherever the ground is likewise contracted (and the ground is - you can fit a tiny amount more of it in than pi suggests due to the Earth's rotation). There is no shrinking of any cable for a westward direction that doesn't also apply eastward, just as the arm of the MMX contracts for both directions of travel of the light moving along it. Your understanding of all this is such a mess that I doubt you'll ever manage to untangle it all.
We've been through all that many times in this thread - if it's longer one way and shorter the other, the extra length one way isn't cancelled out exactly by the shorter length the other way. Any difference in the time taken for light to do one leg of the trip vs. the other leads to a longer total time than if the two legs are equal.
We can change the phase in one cable going around the equator say ten times. We can send one phase to the east and one phase to the west simultaneously. I think we agree the westward direction completes a lap before the eastward direction in the same cable. So each lap the difference increases. Not because the physical cable keeps contracting more each time because the phases are in the same cable. So the difference is in the travel distances themselves. In one direction you are chasing the origin and the other direction you are closing the gap. The speed of light being the same in both directions. So its a distance issue for light and not a physical contraction of the cable.
Normally in space the speed of light forward is longer between mirrors with the direction of speed than side ways I will concede that mathematically because it does not come back to origin in open space. I understand this point mathematically. But the Earth does have an origin that light returns in the MMX. All clocks tick at the same rate at sea level. Light is confounded with the electron in every frame. So we are dealing with an energy level back and forth to origin unlike being in space. Its like the Earth is stationary in space for the two way direction of light.