The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?

  • 21 Replies
  • 4462 Views
  • 5 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline katieHaylor (OP)

  • Naked Scientist Producer
  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ********
  • 469
  • Activity:
    10.5%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« on: 05/07/2017 16:04:25 »
Norm asks:

The International Space Station orbits the earth at an altitude of 400 kilometres. The missile that North Korea launched reportedly reached an altitude of 2,500 kilometres.

Why didn't it go into orbit around the Earth?


Can you help?
« Last Edit: 05/07/2017 16:55:45 by chris »
Logged
 



Offline Janus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 783
  • Activity:
    13%
  • Thanked: 186 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #1 on: 05/07/2017 16:42:01 »
It's not just the altitude, it is also the velocity.  The ISS is traveling at 7.6 km/sec in its orbit. That's how fast it has to travel to orbit at its altitude The missile, in order to travel 2500 km high was launched at a speed of ~6 km/sec and so didn't even have enough speed to begin with to maintain an orbit, and lost speed as it climbed.   So even though it surpassed the ISS in altitude, it never had the velocity needed to maintain an orbit at any point of its trajectory.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2017 16:56:24 by chris »
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: chris

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6807
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 174 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #2 on: 05/07/2017 17:30:16 »
What would be the consequences if a North Korean missile hit the ISS?
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 

Offline timey

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 2439
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Self educated since age 11 at "University of Life"
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #3 on: 05/07/2017 17:35:52 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 05/07/2017 17:30:16
What would be the consequences if a North Korean missile hit the ISS?

War...
Logged
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 21969
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 510 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #4 on: 05/07/2017 18:25:35 »
Quote from: timey on 05/07/2017 17:35:52
Quote from: jeffreyH on 05/07/2017 17:30:16
What would be the consequences if a North Korean missile hit the ISS?

War...

Probably not a very long one.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 



Offline chris

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7947
  • Activity:
    2.5%
  • Thanked: 273 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #5 on: 05/07/2017 19:39:37 »
I liked Donald Trump's tweet to King Dong Un, or whatever his name is: "Hasn't this guy got anything better to do with his life..." - I think that's one tweet that almost the whole world was behind (for once).
Logged
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx - https://www.thenakedscientists.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: jeffreyH

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 9182
  • Activity:
    72.5%
  • Thanked: 913 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #6 on: 05/07/2017 21:00:59 »
Quote from: Donald Trump
Hasn't this guy got anything better to do with his life...
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" - Charles Colton

Donald Trump is very boastful about "My missile is bigger than your missile". He obviously forgets that in the 1950s & 1960s, both the USA and Russia (as well as UK & France) were obsessed with having nuclear weapons, and the means to deliver them.

This has also played out with India and Pakistan, Israel & Iraq/Iran.

As long as the USA and Russia maintain massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons and ICBMs, you can expect other immature and emotionally insecure countries to imitate them.

Significant reductions in nuclear stockpiles have been achieved through treaties, but they are still maintained at levels that could totally wipe out civilisation - and all it takes is one loose cannon to light the fuse.

One of the problems with land-based ICBMs is that the launch window is very short from the time you detect an attack to the time you have to launch a response (before your own missiles get melted into slag). This leads to dangerous command structures like "The president can launch nuclear weapons without first consulting the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or even declaring war." One suggestion I heard recently was that all countries should decommission their land-based ICBMs (that demand instant launch authorisation from one person) and move to submarine and aircraft-launched missiles, which do not require instant authorisation from 1 loose cannon.

Of course, the USA would be even more uncomfortable with North Korea imitating their fleet of submarines!

See:  http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/
Logged
 

Offline timey

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 2439
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Self educated since age 11 at "University of Life"
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #7 on: 05/07/2017 21:16:23 »
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/you-and-almost-everyone-you-know-owe-your-life-to-this-man/
Logged
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...
 

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 9182
  • Activity:
    72.5%
  • Thanked: 913 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #8 on: 06/07/2017 00:20:04 »
Quote from: Norm
reached an altitude of 2,500 kilometres
Due to the high probability of launch failure, most countries try to position their launch site so they can launch over an ocean or desert, so the inevitable failures (and planned dropping of first stage boosters) doesn't land on someone's house or business.

They normally position the launch site so they can safely launch towards the east, so the launch gets a boost from Earth's rotation.

The normal launch profile is a balance between:
- getting out of Earth's thick lower atmosphere as quickly as possible (solution: shoot straight up, then duck when it comes back down)
- gaining the horizontal velocity to reach orbital speed, or reach another country (solution: shoot the missile horizontally - but then atmospheric resistance will give it a very short range).

North Korea does have an east coast, but it faces Japan. Japan, with its high population density would be very unhappy of North Korea dropped missiles on its territory (even accidentally).

So North Korea's solution is to fire the missile almost straight up, but angled slightly so that it lands in the Sea of Japan, between Japan and North Korea.

Rocket builders can check their design thoroughly, and tell a lot about the thrust and range of the missile by the combination of vertical distance and horizontal distance.

North Korea has few choices of launch direction, given the territorial waters of Japan, South Korea, China and Russia, which surround it on all sides.
Logged
 



Offline timey

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 2439
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Self educated since age 11 at "University of Life"
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #9 on: 06/07/2017 01:28:37 »
Quote from: evan_au on 06/07/2017 00:20:04
Japan, with its high population density would be very unhappy of North Korea dropped missiles on its territory (even accidentally).
Japan, under international law, isn't allowed to deploy it's army in any type of activity apart from the defense of a physical invasion upon its shores.  If a Korean missile were to fall upon Japanese soil, it is the Americans who are legally obliged to defend Japan in the event of a perceived attack as such from an off shore location.
Logged
Particles are very helpful, they lend themselves to everything...
 

Offline homebrewer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 90
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #10 on: 06/07/2017 13:07:11 »
I think that the only realistic answer to combat North-Koreas ICBM'S ,
are Laser weapons in space.
Logged
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6807
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 174 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #11 on: 06/07/2017 18:02:37 »
Aim the lasers at Kim Jing Dingaling's head.
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 

Offline chris

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7947
  • Activity:
    2.5%
  • Thanked: 273 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #12 on: 06/07/2017 23:20:41 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 06/07/2017 18:02:37
Aim the lasers at Kim Jing Dingaling's head.


You would need laser precision to find his brain...
Logged
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx - https://www.thenakedscientists.com/
 



Offline Janus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 783
  • Activity:
    13%
  • Thanked: 186 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #13 on: 06/07/2017 23:33:08 »
Quote from: evan_au on 06/07/2017 00:20:04
Quote from: Norm
reached an altitude of 2,500 kilometres
Due to the high probability of launch failure, most countries try to position their launch site so they can launch over an ocean or desert, so the inevitable failures (and planned dropping of first stage boosters) doesn't land on someone's house or business.

They normally position the launch site so they can safely launch towards the east, so the launch gets a boost from Earth's rotation.

The normal launch profile is a balance between:
- getting out of Earth's thick lower atmosphere as quickly as possible (solution: shoot straight up, then duck when it comes back down)
If you fire the rocket straight up (perpendicular to the ground), it will not come down on your head.  The tangential velocity it picks up from the rotating Earth puts it in a highly elliptical trajectory with an impact point to the East. The Earth rotation also takes your landing path Eastward, but not the same distance. the higher your rocket travels the greater the difference in these distances, and larger the distance between launch and landing measured in the ground frame.
Quote
- gaining the horizontal velocity to reach orbital speed, or reach another country (solution: shoot the missile horizontally - but then atmospheric resistance will give it a very short range).
Generally a "gravity turn" trajectory is used.  The rocket starts straight up and then progressively levels out.
Quote

North Korea does have an east coast, but it faces Japan. Japan, with its high population density would be very unhappy of North Korea dropped missiles on its territory (even accidentally).

So North Korea's solution is to fire the missile almost straight up, but angled slightly so that it lands in the Sea of Japan, between Japan and North Korea.
With the given top altitude reached for this missile, firing straight up would cause it to land some 700 mi to the East (or pretty much on Japan).  N.Korea actually had to aim the missile slightly to the West, to counter this and have it land in the Sea of Japan.


Logged
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6807
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 174 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #14 on: 07/07/2017 12:41:14 »
How reassuring that they actually put SOME thought into their launches. So they should have the correct trajectory to land one on Trump's head.
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 

Offline Bill_

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 14
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #15 on: 08/07/2017 16:18:49 »
Quote from: evan_au on 05/07/2017 21:00:59
As long as the USA and Russia maintain massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons and ICBMs, you can expect other immature and emotionally insecure countries to imitate them.
As far as I know the US still reserves the right to pre-emptively defend itself against any country without nuclear weapons which it thinks is planning to acquire them.

One reason given for Margaret Thatcher going to war over the Falklands was that Argentina had no nuclear weapons.

If N. Korea acquires intercontinental nuclear weapons it will make the world a more dangerous place, but make itself somewhat safer.
Is that being immature and emotionally insecure?
Is it worse than the main nuclear powers who put so much effort into trying to monopolise nuclear weapons?

When Ronald Reagan said "Let's bomb Russia," most people realised he was joking.
If Donald Trump decides to pre-emptively defend the USA against N. Korea it won't be a joke.
Logged
 

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 9182
  • Activity:
    72.5%
  • Thanked: 913 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #16 on: 08/07/2017 22:45:27 »
Quote from: OP
Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
Emphatically, yes!

That's what the space race in the late 1950s and 1960s was all about.

Increasing the lift of an ICBM rocket allows you to launch a larger atomic bomb farther. But once you can achieve orbital velocity, you can reach virtually any point on the Earth. That may make you feel like king of the Earth.

While military technology was necessarily secret, including the range and payload of ICBMs, this same technology was used in the early space race to very publicly to declare "My rocket/technology/society/political system is better than your rocket/technology/society/political system.".

I understand that after the political purges of the McCarthy era, the USA was psychologically devastated when Russia launched Sputnik into orbit - it carried a radio beacon that could be heard from the USA.

Early US launches were attempted on military ICBM launchers, which failed for various reasons, as portrayed in the recent movie Hidden Figures.

After President Kennedy committed the US to a Moon landing, it was clear that a much larger rocket was needed than any that could sensibly be used to deliver 7 or more atomic bombs to the other side of the world, and so NASA was formed as a civilian agency. But many of the equipment contractors were the companies making ICBMs, and used some of the techniques that had been refined on ICBMs.

Today, heavy-lift rockets are used for launching satellites into geosynchronous orbits, resupplying the ISS, and launching space probes to study other planets.

But another generation of rocket technology will be needed to get a manned mission to Mars and return safely to Earth.
Logged
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 21969
  • Activity:
    100%
  • Thanked: 510 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #17 on: 09/07/2017 09:54:04 »
Quote from: Bill_ on 08/07/2017 16:18:49
One reason given for Margaret Thatcher going to war over the Falklands was that Argentina had no nuclear weapons.
If "the opposition don't have nukes" is a reason for going to war, why did Galtieri (who didn't have them) attack the UK (who did)?

Also, it's not clear if N Korea having nukes makes them safer, or more of a target.
« Last Edit: 09/07/2017 09:56:35 by Bored chemist »
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline Bill_

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 14
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #18 on: 09/07/2017 11:30:57 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 09/07/2017 09:54:04
Quote from: Bill_ on 08/07/2017 16:18:49
One reason given for Margaret Thatcher going to war over the Falklands was that Argentina had no nuclear weapons.
If "the opposition don't have nukes" is a reason for going to war, why did Galtieri (who didn't have them) attack the UK (who did)?

Also, it's not clear if N Korea having nukes makes them safer, or more of a target.

"The opposition do/don't have nukes" isn't the only reason for going to war. Also, for that to work politically, it's best to have some evidence, however spurious, that the country is attempting to acquire nuclear weapons.

Galtieri observed that Thatcher had removed military protection from the Falklands to save money. He thought, probably correctly, that she had no interest in the Falklands, which Argentina had long claimed was its territory. It doesn't seem to have occurred to him that an expensive war to overturn the result of her saving money would make her very popular.

N Korea Korea developing nukes makes them less safe. They seem to be using mobile launchers, so once they have working ICBMS, the possibility of a single missile reaching an attacker's country would at least discourage pre-emptive defence.

Somewhat unrelated, some politicians in countries with even token nuclear defence, like Britain, like the prestige of being in the "nuclear club."

I originally posted because I thought that "immature and emotionally insecure" is a suitable description for pretty much everyone involved in "nuclear diplomacy."
Logged
 

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 9182
  • Activity:
    72.5%
  • Thanked: 913 times
    • View Profile
Re: Could a missile go into orbit around the earth?
« Reply #19 on: 09/07/2017 22:18:51 »
One irony of the US-Russia Cold War missile competition is that all the early rockets were based on captured German rockets (and captured German rocket scientists) after World War 2.

These rockets were developed under a totally different political system than the two that were vying to show their superiority.
Logged
 



  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: missile  / international space station  / orbits  / orbit around the earth  / orbital velocity 
 

Similar topics (5)

What causes the Earth to have "seasons"?

Started by RobotGymnastBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 10
Views: 11883
Last post 25/02/2009 11:27:40
by Damo the Optics Monkey
How would our weight differ on a revolving to that of a non-revolving earth.?

Started by Alan McDougallBoard General Science

Replies: 5
Views: 10089
Last post 10/08/2008 19:44:19
by Alan McDougall
Can matter and anti-matter annhilation one day power the earth?

Started by spook1456Board Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 1
Views: 7551
Last post 11/04/2011 17:46:33
by JMLCarter
Is the Earth immersed in dark energy and dark matter?

Started by thedocBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 2
Views: 7027
Last post 13/08/2012 13:18:25
by lightarrow
Would increase or a drop in Sun's temperature effect Earth's temperature?

Started by bobdihiBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 14
Views: 5049
Last post 29/07/2019 10:55:01
by andrew7278
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.249 seconds with 84 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.