Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?

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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« on: 12/04/2007 00:45:46 »
When sea water freezes...does salt come along for the ride and get trapped within it ?

If not...what is the process for the exodus of salt from salt water as it freezes ?



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Offline WylieE

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #1 on: 12/04/2007 01:21:28 »
Hi Neil,
 When water freezes, the salt (to some extent - depending on the speed that the water freezes) gets squeezed out because the salt does not fit well into the crystal structure of ice.  Water that is less salty freezes before water that is more salty.  So as some water freezes, the part that is left gets more salty and takes lower temperature to freeze.  This process repeats and repeats till you are left with pockets of unfrozen water that are high in salt concentration.  These occur in the permafrost and are where some very cold- tolerant bacteria can live.  These bacteria also have to tolerate high salt levels too.
Colleen

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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #2 on: 12/04/2007 01:46:14 »
THANK YOU so much Colleen !! (Hiya by the way)

So, if I were to saturate some hot water with as much salt as it could take...and then froze it ...would I be left with some salty deposits once I emptied the ice out ?....
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paul.fr

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #3 on: 12/04/2007 04:25:55 »
Nooooooooooooooo

i always wanted to post "actually, Neil. i believe i answered this in this topic...ages ago...ha ha...blah blah"

and i did but can' remember where!   [:-'(]

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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #4 on: 12/04/2007 04:35:55 »
Nooooooooooooooo

i always wanted to post "actually, Neil. i believe i answered this in this topic...ages ago...ha ha...blah blah"

and i did but can' remember where!   [:-'(]

Really ? ......you answered it elsewhere ? ( I have said ' really ' to you quite a few times today/yesterday)  [;D]

If you can find it I'd also like to read it !.... [:)]
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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #5 on: 12/04/2007 16:12:30 »
One thing to notice is that icebergs are made of fresh water!

Like Colleen says the salt get concentrated to such an extent that it will not freeze. A similar thing happens with water mixed with alcohol, the water will freezes but the alcohol stays liquid.

Freeze some wine and the alcohol will separate.

TMM


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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #6 on: 12/04/2007 16:14:41 »
One thing to notice is that icebergs are made of fresh water!

Like Colleen says the salt get concentrated to such an extent that it will not freeze. A similar thing happens with water mixed with alcohol, the water will freezes but the alcohol stays liquid.

Freeze some wine and the alcohol will separate.

TMM



Icebergs are made of fresh water? [:o]
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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #7 on: 12/04/2007 16:16:59 »
One thing to notice is that icebergs are made of fresh water!

Like Colleen says the salt get concentrated to such an extent that it will not freeze. A similar thing happens with water mixed with alcohol, the water will freezes but the alcohol stays liquid.

Freeze some wine and the alcohol will separate.

TMM



THANKS YOU TMM,

As a firm believer in empirical study I will do this..I will freeze some wine and some salt water and report what happens !
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Offline Karen W.

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #8 on: 12/04/2007 16:19:43 »
Alcohol usually gets slushie but not solid EH? As I recall that is the case!

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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #9 on: 12/04/2007 16:34:10 »
Well here is the preliminary stages of my Nobel prize winning experiment into freezing wine and salt water...

me will report the results later tonight:



"We're going into the freezer...we maybe some time"
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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #10 on: 12/04/2007 17:28:35 »
Yep, icebergs are made of fresh water.

Before the advent of refrigerators or freezers American ships sailed to cold places to collect lumps of ice. There was a captain who used to ship them home for use and became rich and famous in a short while. He had lots of disasters too and was almost bankrupt at one time. It was a short lived lucrative trade until the science of freezing took hold.

I have not done it with salt water but have with a bottle of cheap wine transferred to a plastic container and sealed.

I'm not sure if doing it with a ice maker tray will work, probably better to put it into a small 100ml sealed plastic bottle. Any alcohol can then be poured off or just thaw and shake and you have wine again.

I will await the outcome with pleasure!


 [;D]"We're going into the freezer...we maybe some time"  LOL   [;D]

TMM

« Last Edit: 12/04/2007 17:32:28 by that mad man »

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paul.fr

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #11 on: 12/04/2007 17:43:40 »
Yep, icebergs are made of fresh water.

Before the advent of refrigerators or freezers American ships sailed to cold places to collect lumps of ice. There was a captain who used to ship them home for use and became rich and famous in a short while. He had lots of disasters too and was almost bankrupt at one time. It was a short lived lucrative trade until the science of freezing took hold.

I have not done it with salt water but have with a bottle of cheap wine transferred to a plastic container and sealed.

I'm not sure if doing it with a ice maker tray will work, probably better to put it into a small 100ml sealed plastic bottle. Any alcohol can then be poured off or just thaw and shake and you have wine again.

I will await the outcome with pleasure!


 [;D]"We're going into the freezer...we maybe some time"  LOL   [;D]

TMM



TMM, how did the celebrating go?

by the way, fancy writing that up as an experiment and posting it?

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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #12 on: 12/04/2007 17:46:33 »
Yup, I'll be waiting for your results Neil!
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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #13 on: 12/04/2007 20:32:20 »
Thanks paul.fr,

Drank over half bottle of some nice single malt whisky and had a listen to some oldy music, not much celebrating though  [:I]


Glad to write it up, it will be fun!  [:)]

Tomorrow I will get a bottle of red wine and do the experiment.

Note to self:

Don't drink it all first!

TMM


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Offline WylieE

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #14 on: 12/04/2007 20:41:50 »
Too bad about alcohol not freezing-
I could just imagine- Icebergs made of whiskey. . . .
I'll have one of Tully and Middleton and an Oban. . .
mmmmmmmm

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Offline Batroost

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #15 on: 13/04/2007 21:21:20 »
Be careful...

Icebergs are made of fresh water, but that's usually because they've fallen off ('calved') from the leading edge of glaciers i.e. formed from snow on land.

Sea-ice tends not to be thick enough to form icebergs, though it can crumple up a bit.
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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #16 on: 13/04/2007 21:45:25 »
posting results in a few mins....I got side tracked .....fancy that eh ?
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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #17 on: 13/04/2007 21:52:12 »
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm really curious of the outcome neil! [:D]
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Offline neilep

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« Reply #18 on: 13/04/2007 21:55:27 »
just doing it now....gimmee a minute !!
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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #19 on: 13/04/2007 21:56:25 »
I think a minute has passed
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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #20 on: 13/04/2007 21:56:51 »
OOOps! Sorry, when I posted that, it was 58 seconds! Soo.. Well, the minute has passed now, my dear comrade [:D]
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Offline neilep

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« Reply #21 on: 13/04/2007 22:06:41 »
I really hope the nice people at Nobel will give me the time I need for my acceptance speech !!


OK...this is what happened  !

It took two whole nights and days for the salt water to adequately freeze and as ewe can see it has turned very white....yesterday it was translucent and slushy !!





As ewe can also see the wine has indeed frozen very ' crystaline'...Ice station Zebra is there as control cubes !!



Immediately upon ' outing ' the specimens the Salt-Cube began to melt!...The Wine-Cube was not far behind .




I tested the saltiness by utilizing a very advanced piece of technology...my tongue !! I had to use haste as the melting was quick !

The bottom of the Salt-Cube was far more salty than the top.......

I observed that immediately upon popping the cubes  out that the inner of the tray where the Salt-Cube lay was wet ...The Wine-Cube also but not as much.........the control cubes were dry !!

The Wine-Cube was extremely mushy and very very fragile.

And thus..this concludes my empirical data...for which I am a firm believer of !!  [;D]


I thank you.


*takes bow...receives award*



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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #22 on: 13/04/2007 22:09:32 »
Haha, well done Neil. *Claps*

It was actually quite an interesting thing to read. [:)]

By the way Neil, as you probably would like wine, what did the wine-cube taste like? (I assume you popped it straight in your mouth after taking the photos [;D])
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Offline neilep

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #23 on: 13/04/2007 22:15:25 »
Haha, well done Neil. *Claps*

It was actually quite an interesting thing to read. [:)]

By the way Neil, as you probably would like wine, what did the wine-cube taste like? (I assume you popped it straight in your mouth after taking the photos [;D])

Actually Sean..I don't drink alcohol at all...I just happened to have a half bottle that I had recently used to cook with....however..I did taste it...and it was disgusting.....though I think the slat-cube was even worse !!

Glad ewe enjoyed it.....YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!
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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #24 on: 13/04/2007 22:17:16 »
Eugh, the salt-cube.. Even thinking of it! *Shudders*
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Offline WylieE

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #25 on: 13/04/2007 23:44:25 »
Cool Job Neil!

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #26 on: 14/04/2007 01:57:52 »
Cool Job Neil!

Why thank ewe very much Colleen.

Hugs the WylieE ...YAYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!
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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #27 on: 14/04/2007 02:01:10 »
Wait.. I complimented you.. Where's my hug? [:(] [:P]
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Offline neilep

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« Reply #28 on: 14/04/2007 02:09:53 »
Wait.. I complimented you.. Where's my hug? [:(] [:P]

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Offline Seany

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #29 on: 14/04/2007 02:10:38 »
Hmm.. See that little yellow fellow! He missed hugging me! Ended up hugging himself. Neil, you selfish boy. Hugging yourself? [:P]
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another_someone

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #30 on: 14/04/2007 03:04:38 »
have with a bottle of cheap wine transferred to a plastic container and sealed.

I'm not sure if doing it with a ice maker tray will work, probably better to put it into a small 100ml sealed plastic bottle. Any alcohol can then be poured off or just thaw and shake and you have wine again.

I will await the outcome with pleasure!

You do realise that this is probably tantamount to operating an illegal distillery  [;D]

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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #31 on: 14/04/2007 19:21:57 »
Nice one neilep!  [:)]

Just like you though, I have to wait longer for it to freeze.

I will report the success (or lack of) ASAP.


You've hear of Alcopops we give you "Alcoslush" perfect for those long hot summer daze.

Disclaimer:
Remember folks, drinking alcohol can be bad or good for you depending on how much you drink before thinking about it!

TMM

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #32 on: 14/04/2007 19:26:19 »
Hmm.. See that little yellow fellow! He missed hugging me! Ended up hugging himself. Neil, you selfish boy. Hugging yourself? [:P]


Grrrr !!..LOL 
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Offline neilep

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« Reply #33 on: 14/04/2007 19:28:29 »
Nice one neilep!  [:)]

Just like you though, I have to wait longer for it to freeze.

I will report the success (or lack of) ASAP.


You've hear of Alcopops we give you "Alcoslush" perfect for those long hot summer daze.

Disclaimer:
Remember folks, drinking alcohol can be bad or good for you depending on how much you drink before thinking about it!

TMM

Excellent TMM !!...it will be great to see how your results compare.

good luck with it !

..and I don't mind sharing Nobel prize....cos I'm nice !!.. [;D]
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Offline Karen W.

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #34 on: 14/04/2007 19:58:14 »
I really hope the nice people at Nobel will give me the time I need for my acceptance speech !!


OK...this is what happened  !

It took two whole nights and days for the salt water to adequately freeze and as ewe can see it has turned very white....yesterday it was translucent and slushy !!





As ewe can also see the wine has indeed frozen very ' crystaline'...Ice station Zebra is there as control cubes !!



Immediately upon ' outing ' the specimens the Salt-Cube began to melt!...The Wine-Cube was not far behind .




I tested the saltiness by utilizing a very advanced piece of technology...my tongue !! I had to use haste as the melting was quick !

The bottom of the Salt-Cube was far more salty than the top.......

I observed that immediately upon popping the cubes  out that the inner of the tray where the Salt-Cube lay was wet ...The Wine-Cube also but not as much.........the control cubes were dry !!

The Wine-Cube was extremely mushy and very very fragile.

And thus..this concludes my empirical data...for which I am a firm believer of !!  [;D]


I thank you.


*takes bow...receives award*





WOOOOOWHOOOOOO.. Nice piccy's Neily good job on the experiment.. LOL I like those Ice cube trays.. They would have been grate when me kids were babbies, but you could still freeze gravies etc in them or broth in order to add them to lovely meals when you only need a little bit you could have hem frozen and stored in freezer bags waiting for the perfect meal! LOL

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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #35 on: 15/04/2007 16:06:30 »
Da daa!

The concluding episode of how to turn wine into water!

So, I took 100ml of wine put it into a bottle and froze it.

The piccys:



Like with neils experiment the wine did not freeze completely solid and when tipped to one side still had some liquid.
The liquid was poured off and measured about 4ml. I cant tell exactly and done by taste but the liquid seemed to be stronger in its alcohol content.

Conclusion: Freezing has partly separated out some of the alcohol.

A better test would be to freeze a greater quantity and use a hydrometer to check before and after draining off the liquid.

Sits back with a smile and drinks what's left!

I thank you........... [;D]

TMM

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Offline Seany

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« Reply #36 on: 15/04/2007 18:29:34 »
Ooo.. Nice experiment! [;D]
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Offline Karen W.

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #37 on: 15/04/2007 19:40:34 »
BRAVOOOO!!! Good job... what would happen if you drank the liquid portion and refroze the other again.. would this continue to leave a small amount of alchohol each time, untill there was no alcohol left in the frozen lump?? You know what I mean.. would it eventually become alcohol free wine!!! LOL ...WELL???? I really am curious!

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Offline WylieE

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« Reply #38 on: 15/04/2007 19:54:49 »
Well, besides just the alcohol, the sugars and salts would stay in the liquid portion, so you would be drinking them off too. . .and so if you kept repeating it- you'd be left with water.

You can notice this, if you put some flavored drink like Kool-AID or a Coke in the freezer (for not too long!) if you drink it while it is still frozen, the part you drink first is really sweet and syrupy, if you drink all of that off- then when the frozen part melts, it is pretty tasteless (mostly water). 

This is what happens to plants that live in freezing areas- one of the biggest problems for plants in low temperature is actually dehydration- because the only liquid left is high in salts. (see I knew I could turn it into a plant post! [;D])
Colleen

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #39 on: 15/04/2007 20:45:52 »
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!

FANTASTIC !!!!  EXCELLENT !!!!


Nicely Done Colleeen. (Hugs the Wylie.E)



*le sigh*...is there going to be enuff of this Nobel prize to spread around ?
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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #40 on: 15/04/2007 20:53:13 »
Thanks, that was fun!  [;D]

Well Karen, its seems you are on the right track with that idea, better than me. I thought it would all separate out first go but it don't.  [:I]
Doing what you suggest, repeating it, would give you almost alcohol free wine! 

And thanks Colleen, never knew about the plant aspect.


The wine was consumed, the bottle rinsed and now its the salt-water test.

Almost the same freezing routine but this time 5g sea salt dissolved in 100ml water.

Taps toe as he waits....... [:)]

Bee





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Offline WylieE

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« Reply #41 on: 15/04/2007 20:56:23 »
THANKS! I needed that!

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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #42 on: 15/04/2007 21:19:55 »
Cheers Neil.  [:)]

The Nobel prize is diluting so fast it will soon be a homoeopathic dose, so enough for all! [;)]

Now the funny bit.

My daughter in law came to use the washing machine earlier, and saw the wine on the side!

"You drinking wine at this time" she says. "No its an experiment" says I.

Strange, she didn't believe me!         

Oh well.  [;D]

Bee

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Offline Batroost

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #43 on: 15/04/2007 22:52:31 »
Found this interesting to read in the light of your empirical demonstrations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_distillation
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Offline that mad man

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Where's the salt in frozen sea water ?
« Reply #44 on: 16/04/2007 17:44:42 »
Applejack and ice beer!

Illegal in some countries too.....woops, glad I got rid of the evidence!

Sorry niel we have been trumped, no nobel prize this time.  [:(!] [;D]

Bee
« Last Edit: 16/04/2007 17:47:27 by that mad man »