The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?

  • 24 Replies
  • 1330 Views
  • 2 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Professor Mega-Mind (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 589
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« on: 01/02/2019 09:02:16 »
...Relativistic Mass versus Structural Integrity .  What is the relationship ?  Specifically , as the rate of time passage varies , how goes structural integrity ?
P.M.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2019 09:47:36 by chris »
Logged
 



Offline esquire

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 82
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #1 on: 01/02/2019 21:17:49 »
relativistc mass, defined as momentum = energy x velocity
structure integrity defined as "an ability of an item—either a structural component or a structure consisting of many components—to hold together under a load, including its own weight, without breaking or deforming excessively"

a photon has no mass but it has relativistic mass. so a photon consisting of "three quarks and a gluon" has structural integrity under the auspcious of gravity. gravity in this case constraining the energetic relativistic mass to a speed of light, maximum limit. relativistic mass is relegated to anything that is already traveling at the speed of light. it is a reference to massless energy.  it is my understanding that the distinct between,  momentum = energy x velocity,  and e=hv is explained as physic semantics.   

being massless, structural integrity has no or very little bearing in reference to relativistic mass.
Logged
 

Offline esquire

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • 82
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #2 on: 01/02/2019 21:26:40 »
.Relativistic Mass versus Structural Integrity .  What is the relationship ?  Specifically , as the rate of time passage varies , how goes structural integrity ?


In relationship to science fiction terms. prior to scotty beaming up captain kirk, captain kirk's body has structural integrity, while being demolecularized, captain kirk's body is in a state of relativistic energy.
Logged
 

Online evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 7655
  • Activity:
    26%
  • Thanked: 751 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #3 on: 01/02/2019 22:01:22 »
Let's assume that an object (or a person) has enough structural integrity to withstand Earth-normal gravity =1g.

Now accelerate them in a spacecraft at 1g for 10 years.
- After 1 year, they are travelling a significant fraction of the speed of light - and a big fraction after 10 years.
- Their relativistic mass has increased dramatically, but their rest mass (as measured in their frame of reference) has not changed.
- So their structural integrity is unchanged, in their frame of reference

However, if, after 10 years acceleration at 1g, you run into a speck of dust. It is like a bomb going off, and your structural integrity is shot to pieces.
Logged
 

Offline Professor Mega-Mind (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 589
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #4 on: 01/02/2019 23:40:21 »
Mr. AU ,
After 10 years at 1g , you will mass as much as a blue whale , from the perspective of those on Earth .  My contention is that your structural integrity MUST increase lock-step , or you would disintegrate simply from walking into a wall .  On the other hand , such an impact would happen hundreds of times slower than on Earth , so far less strain on your structural integrity after all .
Balance in all things ?  A fast pea would definitely splash you then !
P.M.
Logged
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 16256
  • Activity:
    99.5%
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #5 on: 02/02/2019 00:43:46 »
Quote from: esquire on 01/02/2019 21:17:49
relativistc mass, defined as momentum = energy x velocity
No, it isn't.
Quote from: Professor Mega-Mind on 01/02/2019 23:40:21
After 10 years at 1g , you will mass as much as a blue whale
When in the name of all that's holy did "mass" become a verb?
Anyway, I'm sat here, rather more than 10 years old and perpetually subject to about 1g and my mass remains about 75Kg
So, you seem to be wrong by a factor of about 1900.
You haven't got close to defining "Structural Integrity" so you don't seem to understand what it takes for anyone to answer your question.

Did you consider actually learning science?
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 
The following users thanked this post: Petrochemicals

Offline Professor Mega-Mind (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 589
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #6 on: 02/02/2019 01:32:58 »
...RELATIVISTIC Mass .
Same as particles at relativistic velocities . They just THINK they're  normal , but we know better !
P.M.
Logged
 

Offline Bill S

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3421
  • Activity:
    8%
  • Thanked: 97 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #7 on: 02/02/2019 11:14:20 »
Quote from: BC
When in the name of all that's holy did "mass" become a verb?

Same time that "dead" became a verb, I imagine. :)

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=75738.msg563914
Logged
There never was nothing.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 16256
  • Activity:
    99.5%
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #8 on: 02/02/2019 12:16:45 »
Quote from: Bill S on 02/02/2019 11:14:20
Same time that "dead" became a verb, I imagine.
OK, so you know from a previous thread that it's not a verb, and you used it as one anyway.Why be deliberately unclear?

Anyway, since plenty of things with practically no relativistic mass lack structural integrity, yet other things with plenty of it  do not, we know that the answer to your question is " Obviously not".
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 



Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6672
  • Activity:
    10%
  • Thanked: 173 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #9 on: 02/02/2019 12:34:17 »
The nearer an object's velocity gets to the speed of light, the effects will start to resemble the tidal forces on an object approaching a black hole. Since the forces holding the object together themselves travel at light speed this has to be the case. Otherwise relativity breaks down. If you plot relativistic gamma you will see that the tidal forces will only have such an effect VERY close to the speed of light. The amount of energy required to reach this point is well out of our technological reach so shouldn't be a concern.
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 4491
  • Activity:
    27.5%
  • Thanked: 379 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #10 on: 02/02/2019 13:53:37 »
Quote from: Professor Mega-Mind on 02/02/2019 01:32:58
Same as particles at relativistic velocities . They just THINK they're  normal , but we know better !
P.M.
No, they are normal, and you don’t know better.

You are confusing the measurement of mass with the quantity or density of matter.
In our own frame a mass at rest would weigh more if it contained a greater amount of denser matter. The moving mass has extra energy and this distorts spacetime hence increasing gravitational attraction which we measure as increased mass. However, there is no extra matter in the relativistic object, nor any greater bonding between parts, hence no change in structural integrity.
Logged
and the misguided shall lead the gullible,
the feebleminded have inherited the earth.
 

Offline Halc

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 1505
  • Activity:
    36.5%
  • Thanked: 82 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #11 on: 02/02/2019 15:37:49 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/02/2019 12:16:45
OK, so you know from a previous thread that it's not a verb, and you used it as one anyway.Why be deliberately unclear?
Mass has been a verb for a long time.  Look it up.  He even used it correctly in his sentence.

I am actually disappointed in the quality of answers I've seen to this question so far, Colin2B excepted.
One need not accelerate for years to have significant relativistic mass.  One only needs to consider said structure in a frame where it has that mass.

So I have a Popsicle stick that breaks when 12 Newtons of force is placed upon it.  Now I consider that same stick in a frame where it masses (verb!) 10 times its proper mass.  Would force applied to it in one frame be equal to force in another frame?  If so, the structural integrity of the stick is unaffected by its relativistic mass.
Perhaps the force in the strange frame depends on the direction of the force (in the direction of motion, or orthogonal to it for instance).  A perfectly circular orbit is squashed into an ellipse with the central mass at the middle, not one of the focus points.  That suggests that forces are not equal in the direction of motion vs the orthogonal direction, and that means that structural integrity is indeed a function of speed, and thus relativistic mass.

Quote from: Colin2B on 02/02/2019 13:53:37
In our own frame a mass at rest would weigh more if it contained a greater amount of denser matter.
What do you mean by this?  It would seem to weigh more if it contained a greater amount of matter, but I don't see how density plays into that at all.
Quote
However, there is no extra matter in the relativistic object, nor any greater bonding between parts, hence no change in structural integrity.
This is a great point.  Suppose we had a structure that was so fragile that it barely held itself together.  Now we give it relativistic mass by considering it in another frame.  The forces acting upon it may or may not be the same depending on how you compute them (Earth is closer and has reduced radius in the direction I'm imagining, so force (as computed by Newton's non-relativistic special case) is greater, but equivalent acceleration is not proportional with it), and yet the structure is still just barely able to support itself.  So said integrity is not a function of relativistic mass at all.
Logged
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 6672
  • Activity:
    10%
  • Thanked: 173 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #12 on: 02/02/2019 21:23:58 »
The structural integrity of ice is disrupted by increasing its temperature. This disrupts the molecular bonding. The kinetic energy introduced to the system overcomes the bonding. The structural integrity of the molecules remains intact. Forces, that introduce stresses and strains, disrupt structural integrity. This obviously includes acceleration. However, relativistic mass does not require acceleration. It is a function of relative velocity. So the structural integrity in this case is simply a function of velocity. We can relate this velocity directly to kinetic energy.
Logged
Even the most obstinately ignorant cannot avoid learning when in an environment that educates.
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 16256
  • Activity:
    99.5%
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #13 on: 02/02/2019 21:36:43 »
A sand dune has little, if any, relativistic mass, and little structural integrity.
The voyager 1 spacecraft has some (admittedly small)  relativistic mass and quite a lot of structural integrity.

There does not any reason to think the two factors are related.

There's also a problem. If an ant (in a space suit) was wandering round on Voyager, he wouldn't expect it to behave differently from how it behaved when it was on Earth. From his point of view, it's stationary so there's no relativistic mass to account for any changes in stiffness or whatever.

« Last Edit: 02/02/2019 21:40:29 by Bored chemist »
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 8018
  • Activity:
    38%
  • Thanked: 486 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #14 on: 02/02/2019 22:22:17 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 02/02/2019 12:34:17
The nearer an object's velocity gets to the speed of light, the effects will start to resemble the tidal forces on an object approaching a black hole. Since the forces holding the object together themselves travel at light speed this has to be the case. Otherwise relativity breaks down.

Quote
Reported in November 1994 in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society is a galaxy with a measured red shift of z=4.25 , a new record. This value for the z parameter corresponds to a recession speed of .93c
. but I haven't noticed any change in my structural integrity.
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline Professor Mega-Mind (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 589
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #15 on: 02/02/2019 23:45:13 »
...The essence of the question .
Looking at the crew compartment of a spaceship travelling at relativistic speed , from Earth (somehow) .  You observe that objectively (to you) , the individuals inside it weigh many tons .  You also observe that objectively , time is greatly dilated (slowed) for them .  The question is whether the four fundamental forces (within the ship) are normal-strength , from your objective viewpoint , or have they changed (less or more) ?
D.H.
Logged
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ********
  • 8018
  • Activity:
    38%
  • Thanked: 486 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #16 on: 03/02/2019 08:40:03 »
Is there any reason why they should have?
Logged
helping to stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 16256
  • Activity:
    99.5%
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #17 on: 03/02/2019 09:28:01 »
Quote from: Professor Mega-Mind on 02/02/2019 23:45:13
...The essence of the question .
Looking at the crew compartment of a spaceship travelling at relativistic speed , from Earth (somehow) .  You observe that objectively (to you) , the individuals inside it weigh many tons .  You also observe that objectively , time is greatly dilated (slowed) for them .  The question is whether the four fundamental forces (within the ship) are normal-strength , from your objective viewpoint , or have they changed (less or more) ?
D.H.
You haven't addressed the issue.
If the "integrity" of their ship is adversely affected, it falls apart.
That's a thing that would be noticed by the crew and the people back on Earth.
It can't be different depending on your point of view.

And, as Alann points out, from the perspective of an observer in that galaxy, we are doing 93% of the speed of light, but our planet isn't falling apart.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 

Offline Professor Mega-Mind (OP)

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 589
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #18 on: 03/02/2019 11:30:24 »
...What about the Bobble-heads ?
Is their a consensus , then , amongst the big heads , that the 4-forces would measure normal-strength on-board , as measured from Earth , when the ship passed by ? 
P.M.
Logged
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 16256
  • Activity:
    99.5%
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • View Profile
Re: Does structural integrity vary proportionately with relativistic mass?
« Reply #19 on: 03/02/2019 13:18:14 »
Quote from: Professor Mega-Mind on 03/02/2019 11:30:24
...What about the Bobble-heads ?
Is their a consensus , then , amongst the big heads , that the 4-forces would measure normal-strength on-board , as measured from Earth , when the ship passed by ? 
P.M.
The "ship" is always passing by.
Logged
Please disregard all previous signatures.
 



  • Print
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: time vs strength .  / time-dilation/force-strength 
 

Similar topics (5)

Can black holes lose enough mass to stop being black holes?

Started by thedocBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 17
Views: 11521
Last post 21/08/2012 07:57:00
by Emc2
Can you have two objects have equal density but not equal mass??

Started by VereavaBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 16
Views: 35022
Last post 25/10/2010 01:02:15
by Vereava
Split from "The law of conservation of mass?"

Started by PmbBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 13
Views: 5740
Last post 22/10/2011 22:31:33
by Pmb
Neutrino mass could have been discovered without Neutrino Oscillations?

Started by Diogo_Afonso_LeitaoBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 1
Views: 2243
Last post 15/02/2016 21:02:20
by evan_au
Does "point mass" make sense?

Started by itisusBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 5
Views: 4912
Last post 21/03/2009 21:48:31
by yor_on
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.274 seconds with 84 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.