[CliveG]

Perversion is not good.

So, for example, voyeurism...?

Depends. You realize that God, Satan and many spirits might be watching every sexual act that takes place? Ooohh the thought of it makes me shudder. Maybe God and the good guys turn their eyes away. I wonder how they deal with the other horrors that humankind visit upon each other and the planet.

A man stands by a window and exposes himself to a woman passing by. He gets arrested for exposing himself.
A woman stands by a window and exposes herself to a man passing by. He gets arrested as a Peeping Tom.

We are sexual beings and the desire to see others naked is in most of us. I am surprised at the number of ordinary folk who will take part in some skinny dipping as plain old fun. No funny business.

I visited Sandy Bay at its heyday when it was an exclusive nudist beach in Cape Town. I went because it was clean and beautiful. Nature at its best. Most of the nudists were bronzed and attractive. Models came there to get an overall tan. I did not see it as much different to going to an ordinary beach. Boats would come to the bay for a thrill. I am a strong swimmer and once I swam toward the boats. The people took fright and prepared to leave. The stories of a bunch strong naked men boarding the craft and throwing people and their cameras into the sea was well known.

I often went early before anyone got there. It was amazing. I swam in the surf with seals coming in the rolling waves, with one jumping over my shoulder. The long walk through the brush and the dunes made it magical.

But the perverts were there. They were generally young and dirty and perched on the rocks like vultures. They had dirty minds. Mostly they were ignored but sometimes a group of guys would approach them and chase them away.

[Bored chemist]

You realize that God, Satan and many spirits might be watching every sexual act that takes place?

No, of course not, I'm an atheist.
I don't imagine that Satan is watching and more than I imagine the Wizard of Oz is looking in on us.

[CliveG]

(snip)
The Morgenthau Plan was about deindustrialisation of the Ruhr, not sterilisation of people - that was Nazi policy. But don't let the facts get in the way of whatever it is that you are arguing about.
(snip)

Morganthau may have personally wanted sterilisation (as I stated) but it was not part his official policy. Regrettably starvation was the clear outcome of his plan. That and slave labor. The US eugenics industry exported the sterilization philosophy to Germany.

Morganthau was very vindictive and vengeful. I say this from a position of fact and also because I wish to make the point that the Old Testament is about a vengeful and vindictive God who plays favorites - namely Jews and Israelites. I am criticising a religion that does not preach universal values of brotherly love and forgiveness. The religion needs a serious overhaul and update. It cannot be done from without but from within - by Jews who recognize that change is needed.

Here is a historical reference but I drew facts from many source to write my own summary.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p287_Kubek.html
...At a luncheon with Undersecretary of War Robert Patterson, Morgenthau brought up the Quebec agreement. Patterson said jokingly: "To degrade Europe by making Germany an agricultural country, isn't that offensive to you?" Morgenthau replied: "Not in the case of Germany.

...When Harold Gaston, the Treasury public relations officer, interrupted to ask whether this meant "driving the population out," Morgenthau replied: "I don't care what happens to the population... I would take every mine, every mill and factory and wreck it." "Of every kind?" inquired Gaston. "Steel, coal, everything. Just close it down," Morgenthau said. "You wouldn't close the mines, would you?" inquired Daniel Bell, one of the Secretary's assistants. "Sure," replied Morgenthau, and he reiterated that the only economic activity which should remain intact was agriculture -- and that could be placed under some type of international control. He was for destroying Germany's economic power first, he said, and then "we will worry about the population second."


Here is my summary of the FACTS. Your "deindustrialisation" is dismissive and sanitizes an ugly plan of vengeance. which was opposed by people as the war footing would down.

In the first half of 1944, the US Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau drafted a plan to reduce post-war Germany to only agriculture stating “all industrial plants and equipment not destroyed by military action shall either be completely dismantled and removed from the area or completely destroyed. All equipment shall be removed from the mines and the mines shall be thoroughly wrecked.”

Reparations included “(d) by forced German labor outside Germany; and (e) by confiscation of all German assets of any character whatsoever outside of Germany."

The Morgenthau plan was reluctantly agreed to by Churchill in September 1944.

US Secretary of War Stimson said of the Morgenthau plan to punish German “It is Semitism gone wild for vengeance and will lay the seeds of another war in the next generation."

Goebbels said that Morgenthau wanted to make Germany into a giant potato patch. A news headline stated, “Roosevelt and Churchill agree to Jewish murder plan.”

The plan was not formalized, but it formed the basis for policy. Four million Germans were in forced labor which sometimes meant clearing mines fields.

Germany couldn't produce goods to export to buy food and millions had starvation rations with 1947 being the worst year. The situation lasted from 1945 to 1947 with death and disease before the Allies feared that Germany might 'go Communist'.

President Herbert Hoover remarked in a report dated 18 March 1947: "There is the illusion that the New Germany left after the annexations can be reduced to a 'pastoral state'. It cannot be done unless we exterminate or move 25,000,000 people out of it."

In July 1947, the Marshall Plan was implemented.

It seemed that Morgenthau had been influenced by a book self-published in 1941 entitled ‘Germany Must Perish’. The author was a Manhattan Jewish businessman named Theodore Kaufman. In it, he proposed sterilizing the entire population of Germany. Eugenics was all the rage in the US and they had been sterilizing people considered to be a burden to society. US scientists were training Germans in eugenics prior to the war.

The book was read by Joseph Goebbels. Kaufman uses the words ‘final solution’ which was only used by Himmler in 1942, but this phrase had been used by a number of people, Jewish and non-Jewish, with regard to finding solutions to problems that Jewish populations were experiencing.

The Holocaust was horrific and an abomination. This example simply shows the hatred and desire for vengeance on both sides that belongs in the past.

Raising young Jewish children in fear of others and telling them they are innocent victims whose only crime is being Jewish is not a positive strategy for the Jewish people and not for the world. One should learn the lessons of the past and move on. The lessons of history should not be forgotten, but incorporating distorted elements into religious dogma only worsen tensions.

An elite class, such as intelligent Jewish citizens, should use their status for the benefit of mankind. It would reduce antisemitism dramatically. At present, it is seen as a group motivated by narrow selfish interests that aggravate conflict around the world.

[Bored chemist]

I am criticising a religion that does not preach universal values of brotherly love and forgiveness.

So, that's all of them then, isn't it?
Did you somehow accidentally miss Christianity off that list?

[CliveG]

I am criticising a religion that does not preach universal values of brotherly love and forgiveness.

So, that's all of them then, isn't it?
Did you somehow accidentally miss Christianity off that list?

You need to appreciate the difference between the basic tenets of religion and the practice of how well those are followed.

If one had to do a side by side comparison of the basic teachings you will see a massive comparative difference.

So if a Christian fails in brotherly love, he may still be somewhat aware of it and be somewhat tolerant.
If a Jew practices no love for anyone but a fellow Jew he is not really breaking any religious doctrine because the strict interpretation of "brother or fellow" is another Jew (reformists try to argue otherwise). Once more - an update to true and unequivocal universalism is needed. No need to dismiss Judaism, reform it to be in line with other religious teachings.

Hillel was being seriously disingenuous about the Golden Rule when explaining the teachings of Judaism - it was (and still is) propaganda to deflect criticism from non-Jews. The Zoroastrians were among the first to teach the Golden Rule. The concept of the Rule is codified in the Code of Hammurabi and the founding fathers were aware of this Code with at least one having a copy for reference. The Jews probably learned much from them while in captivity there.

[alancalverd]

Morganthau may have personally wanted sterilisation (as I stated) but it was not part his official policy.

You may be a Martian invader bent on establishing the Fourth Reich under a Trump puppet (as I have just stated) but that's not part of your official policy. Farewell. 

[Bored chemist]

You need to appreciate the difference between the basic tenets of religion

OK, You should have guessed I'd do this but...
It's the gospel truth. Here's what John says to the Jews.
John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

[CliveG]

Morganthau may have personally wanted sterilisation (as I stated) but it was not part his official policy.

You may be a Martian invader bent on establishing the Fourth Reich under a Trump puppet (as I have just stated) but that's not part of your official policy. Farewell.

Strange sentence. I do not follow at all.

You seem to have an issue with personal views that were unworkable and unacceptable as policy as opposed to written and stated policy. Why get hung up on a minor detail that means little in the whole context?

I hope you are not thinking of leaving the debate.

The thread is about proof but also about the hints and messages that God, if he exists, seems to be leaving for us. Today, while working in the garage I thought about the justification the Israelis give for the establishment of the State of Israel. It is simple "God gave it to them".

Ben-Gurion was quoted in Nahum Goldmann’s book as saying:
“Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs."

And I thought about how proof of Santa was presented in a movie. The US Post Office with letters addressed to the man saying he was Santa. You guys know the one.

So if a country can use God as legal binding proof then surely God exists? (My tongue is somewhat in cheek but I am interested in the answers to this.) Note the reference to different Gods - and God not being the same.

I know I am stirring a bit. I am examining my motives and wondering if some demon is prodding me to be controversial. So I ask God to help out.

Let me point out something that is not debated and should be. There are good Jews and bad Jews and those in between. The same can be said about all groups. There were good Jews like Einstein and many others in Germany before the war. Many were at peace with society and made wonderful contributions to Germany and the world. But it seems that Germany had a large immigration of Jews who were not integrated and they changed the society for the worse. Why is it that the bad Jews cannot be taken to task? And why can one not point to religion as a possible problem in the emergence of some who give Jews a bad name? Defending all Jews out of fear of stoking antisemitism does not help society in general and Jews in particular.

Once more, let me state that I want improvement in religion and improvement in society because I am concerned about instability, war and inter-group fighting resulting from a variety of pandemics. The lesson of the Marshall Plan should be that constructive behavior is far better than destructive behavior. Good intentions got good results for all.

[CliveG]

You need to appreciate the difference between the basic tenets of religion

OK, You should have guessed I'd do this but...
It's the gospel truth. Here's what John says to the Jews.
John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Another strange one. Where is the relevance? Are you questioning whether I am being truthful? Also good at heart and want good things for all people? The answer is "I am not perfect. I do my best to do right and to be moral and ethical."

[Bored chemist]

Where is the relevance?

It's what Christ said of the Jews.
It's part of

the basic tenets of religion

Did you not know that the Bible preaches hate?

[CliveG]

Where is the relevance?

It's what Christ said of the Jews.
It's part of

the basic tenets of religion

Did you not know that the Bible preaches hate?

Having now read the passage carefully it seem to be a reference to Jews who reject him and are planning to have him eliminated. It is not hate. It is a statement that they are being influenced by evil. There is little doubt that there is evil in this world. Lots of it at the moment, despite our great scientific achievements.

Evil has to faced and fought. There are various ways to fight evil. Jesus taught that one fights with love. While I agree with that, I have a hard time doing so. I confront it and try to expose it and get people to realize they are the losers when evil is allowed to go unchecked. The early Christians took a pacifist approach to early Roman oppression.

The Jew went to the other extreme and fought bitterly. They were among the world's first terrorists because they were fighting an asymmetrical war.

https://historycollection.co/assassination-bureau-8-groups-assassins-history/2/
...The Hashshashin were not the first covert group in history. The Jewish Sicarii predate them and were most active in the ‘60s AD. Like the Hashshashin, the Sicarii were driven by religion and politics. In the Sicarii’s case, the aim was to drive out all Romans and Jewish collaborators from Judea.

...The name Sicarii is the plural of the Latin sicarius or ‘dagger man.’ Because of the Jewish assassins, the term also later became synonymous with an assassin or murderer. The group became most notably active under the leadership of Menahem, the grandson of Judah, a former Jewish dissident when it began a reign of terror in Jerusalem. Josephus in his ‘War of the Jews’ describes how the Sicarii would mingle with crowds at festivals, stalking their targets, then discretely stabbing them with their eponymous daggers which they hid under cloaks before melting away into the crowd.

...Meanwhile, the remaining Sicarii held Masada, and there they stayed until the Romans retook the fortress in 73AD. However, when the Romans entered the fort, they found only dead bodies. Defiant to the last, the Sicarii had chosen suicide to crucifixion or enslavement.

This revolt led the Romans to destroy the Second Temple and much of Jerusalem and expel the Jews (a diaspora). Jews were forced to re-evaluate their tactics and identity. They began cooperating but still maintained a tight-knit community wherever they went. Often they gathered together in areas. The ghettos usually were not some slum but often quite well-off and the Jews preferred being out of sight and having not to mix.

They used their talents to assist the royalty and the governing elites. Many times this resulted in desirable advances for such communities. The problems arose when the Jews got too powerful and became a negative influence. This cycle is not recognized by the Jewish historians or the Jewish intellectuals. Hence it has been repeated over and over again. This is what I mean by my motives of wanting to make Jewish society better.

I have a daughter who is an enthusiastic Christian but looks Jewish (from her Jewish Grandfather) and a Jewish son in New York. I do not wish to see them suffer from yet another cycle of violence. I also want the many Jewish academics put their talents to better use in correcting the path of Judaism. I would like to see the huge amounts in Jewish donations sent from the US to Israel to be put to better use in the USA and the world rather than military spending in a war-torn region.

[Bored chemist]

Having now read the passage carefully it seem to be a reference to Jews who reject him

The Jews who didn't reject him are called Christians so...

They were among the world's first terrorists because they were fighting an asymmetrical war.

LOL

[CliveG]

Having now read the passage carefully it seem to be a reference to Jews who reject him

The Jews who didn't reject him are called Christians so...

They were among the world's first terrorists because they were fighting an asymmetrical war.

LOL

You are quoting me out of context. I said "Jews who reject him and are planning to have him eliminated".

Note the use of the present tense. In other words, the Jewish plotters who succeeded in having Jesus crucified.

Priests and the higher clergy in all religions are somewhat like politicians. They plan to stay in power, and are often prepared to distort the message to do so. The extremists in all religions are extreme examples. They do not represent the original teachings.

The history of the Catholic Church is well-known and well-documented. Not too much censorship there. Prior to the Black Death the Church was abusing its power and selling indulgences. The pandemic seriously weakened the power of the Church who had no divine remedy. It also weakened the royalty and the landowners who were effectively enslaving the population. The inequality had become unsustainable. Currently the wealth inequality is getting out of hand. A pandemic will fix that pretty quickly. "Fix your toilet while I am avoiding the virus - no way, fix it yourself."

https://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/theogloss/refor-body.html
One particularly well-known Catholic method of exploitation in the Middle Ages was the practice of selling indulgences, a monetary payment of penalty which, supposedly, absolved one of past sins and/or released one from purgatory after death. It was the selling of indulgences that led the Reformer Martin Luther to post his famous 95 Theses - a document challenging Roman Catholic authority in theological matters, including indulgences and many others. Luther's opposition to the selling of indulgences was not new, however. In most of the Reformation movements stress lay not upon new understandings or doctrines, but on a return to the more authentic and original excellence of tradition.

Luther, one of the main Protestant Reformers, eventually arrived at the conclusion that divine relationship and salvation come by grace through faith, not by good works, belief in dogma, or economic propitiation. One's relationship to the divine is initiated by God, and one can only participate in this relationship by remaining open to it. Therefore, Luther's theology placed him in square opposition to the Roman Catholic practice of selling indulgences.

That was an example of what I mean by updating religion. It has worked well.

The Catholic Church is too much of a business. They probably employ Jewish accountants, who as we all know are the best. I know of one Church here who does. They are trying to hide child abuse and pretend it does not happen. They have damaged the Church by the inaction and the silence. We are all human and the rotten ones should be exposed. Let God do any forgiving if he is so inclined. And marriage should be the solution to the child abuse.

When I was at the Methodist Church in Sunday School as a young boy there was a man who treated the kids to chocolate and candy afterwards. One girl referred to him as "creepy". In the light of experience, I now suspect he was a pedophile but I doubt he actioned any impulses. Fathers would have beaten him to a pulp.

The Catholic Church is afraid of the Mafia. They should be excommunicated, not given confession so they can go out and kill some more.

The Dali Lama is a serious example of a spiritual leader who is motivated by politics and power and self-aggrandizement. I never liked him even in the early days. My suspicions were well founded when I read the book by Stephen Batchelor titled "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist". The book was on sale at a Buddhist retreat not too far from Joburg. My trip there was part of my exploration of religion and spirit. Nice but not practical. The chapter on how the Dali Lama dealt with the sexual abuses and excesses of Western "gurus" showed this only too well.

A number of Jewish people have made businesses out of New Age beliefs and Eastern mysticism. They are intelligent and know how to make money.

One is James Swartz. I attended a lecture given by this self-appointed Vedanta guru. He was raised in the Jewish faith, and after initially living the life of a hippie taking drugs, he found a way to make money and make a living as a guru. He presents a confusing array of clichés such as enlightenment, spiritual freedom, non-duality, purifying the mind, self-inquiry and karma. The references to sages with long names, and concepts with foreign Sanskrit terminology add to the mystique. There is too much vague mystical imagery that defies definition. As James said, when I asked him to define God, he replied: “God is what you want him to be.” Oh, please!

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was an Indian guru. He had attracted Americans in the aftermath of the Vietnam War and a crashing world economy to his Indian lectures. He criticized Gandhi and the Hindu religion. He was known as the ‘sex guru’ because of his views about open sex. He tried to set up a spiritual encampment in Oregon in the 1980s. The ‘Orange People’, as they were known, worked without pay while the guru had about 93 Rolls-Royce cars. His chief of staff Sheela Patel was rotten to the core and tough as nails.

She organized the largest biological terror attack on US soil where over 700 people were poisoned with Salmonella to prevent them from voting. They intimidated local officials and tried bribery. They bused in homeless people and lied about what they were doing and how many people would live there. Murder plots involving bomb-laden planes and attempted murders were part of the power struggles.

These Hindu and Buddhist Western gurus took advantage of the ignorance of the West about these two religions. Indeed, the principles are hard to grasp. However, many people are searching for meaning and charismatic men (and women) can raise a following using any of the religions combined with strange, mystical and titillating beliefs and habits.

It is likely that Satan is behind these cults, which have sprung up at all time in all places and true religion needs to guard against them. Sure signs of such cults are those that have no morals, worship free sex, have no hard and fast principles, that talk in riddles and mystery; and where the leaders live lives of luxury.

----
I am not sure of the motivation of your LOL. The irony of it, or scorn and disbelief.

[CliveG]

I left this site to read some internet news and what do I find:

Armed robbers in Hong Kong made off with hundreds of toilet rolls worth more than HKD1,000 ($130; £98). Toilet rolls are currently in short supply in Hong Kong due to shortages caused by panic-buying during the coronavirus outbreak. Knife wielding men robbed a delivery man outside a supermarket in the Mong Kok district, police said.

My comment about fixing toilets was accurate. Societal breakdown is no joke.

[CliveG]

Some may be interested in reading some detail about two key psychic experiences I had.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZVj_GTKmA2qS7sxyO5el8w0C08de3XeR

If I am allowed to do more and if there is interest then I will.

[Bored chemist]

Some may be interested in reading some detail about two key psychic experiences I had.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZVj_GTKmA2qS7sxyO5el8w0C08de3XeR

If I am allowed to do more and if there is interest then I will.

Do you really not recognise that this is irrelevant?

[Bored chemist]

. In other words, the Jewish plotters who succeeded in having Jesus crucified.

Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

[CliveG]

Some may be interested in reading some detail about two key psychic experiences I had.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZVj_GTKmA2qS7sxyO5el8w0C08de3XeR

If I am allowed to do more and if there is interest then I will.

Do you really not recognise that this is irrelevant?

It may be irrelevant to you because you have your mind firmly made up. Perhaps someone who is more agnostic than hard atheist might find it of interest. I am an engineer and not inclined to make up stuff. As a high performing person (not so much lately) there is not much brain dysfunction going on. The events are lessons that are logical.

This is a just chat section. If people are not interested, they do not have to be here. But as you may have seen, I have researched religion and psychic stuff and sorted out what might be true and what is probably not.

These are the chapters.
Chapter 1 - Does God Talk to Us?
Chapter 2 - Confirmations
Chapter 3 - A Vision of Fire
Chapter 4 — Doomsday or New Age
Chapter 5 — Early Beliefs
Chapter 6 — Going Agnostic
Chapter 7 — Luck and Coincidence
Chapter 8 — Special Treatment
Chapter 9 - Increasing Spirituality
Chapter 10 — Intuitive Knowing
Chapter 11 — Psychic Connection
Chapter 12 — Spirit Help
Chapter 13 — Exploring spirit
Chapter 14 — Rituals
Chapter 15 — More Ghosts & souls
Chapter 16 — Some Hard Lessons
Chapter 17 — Frauds & Fakes
Chapter 18 — Spiritual Lessons
Chapter 19 — Suffering and Science
Chapter 20 — Predictions
Chapter 21 — The Ultimate Reality
Chapter 22 — Updating Religion
Chapter 23 — Conclusion
Chapter 24 - - - Addendum - Remarks & Facts
Chapter 25 - Christianity
Chapter 26 - Judaism
Chapter 27 - Atheists
Chapter 28 - Israel
Chapter 29 - Islam
Chapter 30 - The Rest

[CliveG]

. In other words, the Jewish plotters who succeeded in having Jesus crucified.

Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

And to end the song of Bob Dylan:

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Bob Dylan
With God On Our Side lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, Audiam, Inc

Dylan makes some very good points. We all think we have God on our side - those that believe in God that is.

Even those that do not believe in God are still prepared to invoke him as an authority. Earlier I wrote:

Ben-Gurion was quoted in Nahum Goldmann’s book as saying:
“Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs."

Ben-Gurion was a Zionist but was an atheist. About 65% of Israelis are atheist but there is little doubt they will say God gave them the land of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel
A Gallup survey in 2015 determined that 65 percent of Israelis say they are either "not religious" or "convinced atheists", while 30 percent say they are "religious".

Many see the contradictions in an old religion that has not been updated. Jews for Jesus is one way some Jews update.

God did stop WW1 by allowing the Spanish Flu. And many more wars were ended by disease. Did God allow it? Life on Earth is not a Garden of Eden. It is a struggle with lots of suffering. Humankind has made great technical advancements because war forces innovation. The Space Race was a cold war that did the same. Regrettably many atrocities have been done in God's name. The Inquisition was probably the worst. Demons infest people who have too much power in any arena of life, although some have resisted.

There are stories of tribes of monkeys that fight other tribes. It is horrific. They tear babies apart and eat them. No God or religion there.

The question is where are we going? Can humankind eventually achieve a balance and harmony? I believe that spirit will play a part in getting there. Recognizing the good spirits and shunning the bad ones is a good start.

[CliveG]

The pandemic threat is not only direct. It can affect our food supply. Here is one. Even vegetables can be wiped out by a fungus. The great potato blight. Maybe God is stopping pathogens from going too far and in fact wiping us out.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/swine-fever-double-punch-countries-facing-covid-19-threat-200217050557166.html
African swine fever (ASF) is a contagious disease that affects domestic and wild pigs, causing high fever, respiratory problems, internal bleeding and skin haemorrhages. While it rarely infects humans, according to the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE), it kills 80 percent of the pigs it infects.

The disease is resistant to freezing, thawing and most commercial disinfectants, and there is no vaccine for it. It can spread through non-biological objects like shoes and clothing.

Last year, ASF wiped out 60 percent of domestic pigs in China and a quarter of all domestic pigs in the world, according to estimates by contagious disease experts, running into billions of dollars worldwide.