[CliveG]

The death penalty has been used until very recently for many crimes. Society decides on the crimes and the punishments.

And they make that decision which says the Bible is wrong.

Humanity does a better job of being good then the Book does.

why can't you accept that?

Why can't you accept that there are exceptions to every rule. Principles are basic - common sense is needed to decide when the rule does not apply but exceptions require exceptional circumstances.

Why can't you also accept that religion needs updating - not trashing. The texts are not inerrant, although changes need to be very carefully thought out. Some times a simple addendum to put the teachings in context is sufficient. The New Testament updated the Old Testament to move from a violent vengeful God to a loving forgiving God. The Quran balanced that to say that one could fight to preserve a just and merciful God as long as there was balance. One could live in peace with other faiths as long as they did not pose a threat. Muhammad put this into practice very successfully.

Lying and deceit is forbidden. Yet there are times it is justified. If a man holds a gun to your head and demands to know where your wife has hidden then you lie your head off.

I notice that once more you assail the Bible and not the Torah or the Quran. What is it about Christians that you are so bitter about? Your lack of tolerance does not help your case that an atheist can be just as moral as a Christian.

Is there some unethical behavior that you indulge in, or want to indulge in, that makes you attack religions that preach morality? Morality changes with the times and with needs. God guides wise men to revise the teachings, but not to toss out all the basics. Common sense and logic should prevail.

The Catholic Church should let priests marry, and allow contraception. They are man-made rules that have served their purpose. They should concentrate on communication with God and take issue with those who sin. No blanket forgiveness - unrepentant repeaters should be told they will be judged and suffer in the afterlife - or even have their souls terminated.

[CliveG]

Well, so far my prayers are being answered. The corona virus is not yet collapsing the SA market and we have a buyer for the house we left. The problem my wife faces is how to invest the money. In what? So far she has a balanced portfolio in anticipation - unlike some who promote one strategy or the other.

I tried to buy some surgical face masks. I had to reserve 3 in an incoming shipment. The price was exorbitant. I was told that they had sold out before the hit the shelves. The Muslims wash themselves and are cleaner than if they used toilet paper. But the ordinary person finds that gross. My wife said people will turn to newspapers. I had a little devil whisper in my ear and have me ask what source of paper an atheist would use.

One family told me that they would ask their domestic not to come in to work and put her on half pay and do the work themselves. Wow, that is serious!

So far the death rate seems to be between 3 and 4 percent in many places. What I find surprising is that there are small outbreaks in various places. Dots on the map. Often 1 or 2 which then may become an epicenter. I would have thought that there would be a spread from a cluster although this has happened in Italy and Korea.

[alancalverd]

The conversion of Spanish Jews was in lieu of a pogrom - and it worked. A number of Jews were assimilated

….and a greater number were tortured to death and/or had their assets seized. Interesting definition of "worked", worthy of Goebbels himself.

I notice that once more you assail the Bible and not the Torah

anyone who knew anything about the Bible would know that the Torah constitutes the first five books thereof.

Jesus died about 600 years before toilet paper was invented, and about 1800 years before it became commercially available in the West. I guess his followers did pretty much whatever atheists did. The muslim tradition derives from Matthew 6:3 "Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth" and is still sensibly observed in desert conditions. In times of national crisis I take comfort from my father's sergeant major, who announced at one morning parade "The hobservant among you will 'ave noticed that we 'ave run aht of toilet paper. Don't panic, gentlemen. I 'ave horganised a workin' party wiv scissors, tailorin'  the Daily Mirror to fit your dainty little arse'oles."

[CliveG]

It is official. We have a pandemic. And eventually everyone will get it.

Here are two really informative videos. Must watch.

The Differences Between the Coronavirus and the Spanish Flu w:Michael Osterholm | Joe Rogan

How Serious is the Coronavirus? Infectious Disease Expert Michael Osterholm Explains | Joe Rogan

Bored Chemist made the point that God could simply reduce the fertility of people to reduce the population explosion. It is an option and guess what - it is already happening. Cell phones and cell towers.

So why a nasty pandemic? To get humankind to wake up and change.

[CliveG]

The conversion of Spanish Jews was in lieu of a pogrom - and it worked. A number of Jews were assimilated

….and a greater number were tortured to death and/or had their assets seized. Interesting definition of "worked", worthy of Goebbels himself.

Give me your references to support your claim? I was talking from memory of the vast amount of material I have read on the internet. Amazing place. One can drill down to scans of public records to perform a check on facts put out. Here is a summary of part of the book I spoke about earlier where I gave a few chapters. While it is a reference to the history of Israel, it is generally applicable to the whole of Jewish history.

Finding Truth - When dealing with Jewish history, the media and activists make it hard to establish how much is factual, how much is an exaggeration and how much is an outright falsehood. The fuzziness favors Israel, who says that adverse interpretations are antisemitic.

Many unpleasant facts or unflattering versions of history are side-lined while the official version that instills pride is widely repeated and disseminated. The accepted version of the history of the establishment of Israel is that it was a wondrous feat of almost superhuman struggle against the adversity of the land and the surrounding Arabs. It is well-publicized – and so is some of the criticism.

The average person is aware of the versions of the ‘Old Israeli Historians’ who were not only biased for but had a censored version of the documentation. The ‘New Israeli Historians’ accept that there are new facts. They, however, fall into two categories, biased for or biased against. Benny Morris is pro-Israel and will not use any Arab documents. Ilan Pappe is sympathetic to the Arabs.

I chose to focus on the basics and some key statements that show the truth of what and why some events occurred. They should be a concern for the future. It was a real struggle to look past the emotional statements of all side. It required a lot of cross-referencing to eliminate ‘false facts’ or ‘alternative facts’.

And please stop the antisemitic smears. A few posts ago you mentioned that I should have some humility and behave like a gentleman. How about you take some of your own advice? If God wants all religions to update and improve then Judaism is not an exception.

[alancalverd]

If God wants all religions to update and improve then Judaism is not an exception.

Please get this straight. There is no evidence for a god that wants anything, or even exists. Religion is an excuse for doing things that would otherwise be considered pointless or positively evil.

[CliveG]

Best explanation so far. Makes sense.

Hand Sanitizer & Face Masks, Will They Help Against the Coronavirus? w:Michael Osterholm

[CliveG]

If God wants all religions to update and improve then Judaism is not an exception.

Please get this straight. There is no evidence for a god that wants anything, or even exists. Religion is an excuse for doing things that would otherwise be considered pointless or positively evil.

I have personal evidence. You reject that. Okay, but why is wrong for me to want religions to improve? I am being constructive and looking for truth. I am trying to help ALL people irrespective of faith or race or ethnicity. I do not think it coincidental that I have a very diverse grouping of these (faith and race and ethnicity) in my family in order to give me personal interaction with different groups.

[pensador]

He really wanted interdependence.

It is nonsense to say "God wanted X". The omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything, creates exactly what he wants.

Are you sure ?

I would have to take the Pantheist view of god, a god which is an automaton. The universe is the way it is because that is how it responds. Any other definition of a god is a fraction of the universe, ie a demi god, or an attempt to explain aspects of the universe in terms a peasant can understand. Hinduisms supreme deity if you read up about it, is pantheist. All the little gods like shiva etc are attempts to explain to peasants different aspects of the supreme deity.

I would also raise the question of where do people think their consciousness/soul resides. ?

[CliveG]

I only have about 4 old movie channels on TV. TNT was showing the 1995 movie "Outbreak" with Dustin Hoffman.

Then I switch to the news. Felt just like being in the movie. Quarantine, fear and the army.

BTW - History repeats. No science cure, so people rush to alternative cures. Iran had 26 people die from methanol poisoning thinking it might cure them. If there is civil unrest, who will the people target for scapegoats?

Hmm. My browser just popped up an advert for GermTex N95 facemask - listed as an Anti-virus facemask. My wife's company just bought a few boxes for her factory.

[alancalverd]

The Muslims wash themselves and are cleaner than if they used toilet paper.

I am always impressed by the breadth and depth of specialist knowledge in this forum. Comparative theoproctological hygeine! Whatever next?
But seriously. My muslim friends buy toilet paper. Are they building some fiendish weapon with it, or just destabilising western society by causing panic?

[CliveG]

The Muslims wash themselves and are cleaner than if they used toilet paper.

I am always impressed by the breadth and depth of specialist knowledge in this forum. Comparative theoproctological hygeine! Whatever next?
But seriously. My muslim friends buy toilet paper. Are they building some fiendish weapon with it, or just destabilising western society by causing panic?

No specialist knowledge here. It is no secret that water (ie washing) is required. But alternatives are not forbidden. Even if toilet paper is available and used, water should be the final cleansing. The amount of toilet paper can be reduced. Crisis requires people to examine even the most basic of daily routines. I was told that in the SA army in the bush war troops were given 1 sheet of toilet paper a day.

As for panic, the thought of being without toilet paper can send some people into serious dread. I am old and my body has been subjected to all sorts of "indignities" in hospital and in illness. One adapts. I have learned alternatives to modern cures from nursing sisters that are unmentionable but thoroughly practical. I can hear it now from some - "I would rather die".

I think the US has had a sudden shift away from denial. I used to work in the suburb of New Rochelle.

[hamdani yusuf]

Well, so far my prayers are being answered. The corona virus is not yet collapsing the SA market and we have a buyer for the house we left. The problem my wife faces is how to invest the money. In what? So far she has a balanced portfolio in anticipation - unlike some who promote one strategy or the other.

Have you prayed for the virus to be eradicated altogether? Or at least, the vaccine to be successfully developed and tested?

[Europan Ocean]

He really wanted interdependence.

It is nonsense to say "God wanted X". The omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything, creates exactly what he wants.

Are you sure ?

I would have to take the Pantheist view of god, a god which is an automaton. The universe is the way it is because that is how it responds. Any other definition of a god is a fraction of the universe, ie a demi god, or an attempt to explain aspects of the universe in terms a peasant can understand. Hinduisms supreme deity if you read up about it, is pantheist. All the little gods like shiva etc are attempts to explain to peasants different aspects of the supreme deity.

I would also raise the question of where do people think their consciousness/soul resides. ?

The Hindu's first god still worshiped by 20,000,000 people is Purusha, the Cosmic man. A lot like Elohim. But it is taught there that other gods came out of him. With truths for Christians like the feminine principle and threeness. It is not pantheism.

I would say consciousness resides in the head and belly. Mind and heart consecutively.

[CliveG]

Well, so far my prayers are being answered. The corona virus is not yet collapsing the SA market and we have a buyer for the house we left. The problem my wife faces is how to invest the money. In what? So far she has a balanced portfolio in anticipation - unlike some who promote one strategy or the other.

Have you prayed for the virus to be eradicated altogether? Or at least, the vaccine to be successfully developed and tested?

Interesting question. Since God told me there would be a pandemic or disasters that would cause a huge die-off and solve not only the climate change crisis but other issues as well. Those other issues include greater spirituality, greater cooperation between religions and nations, and a recognition of the limitations of science. Science just cannot know the inner deeper workings even if God did not exist. Since we are all just an illusion the realization that God controls everything will help mankind in the next phase of the adventure.

So when the "boss" tells you what the grand plan is, then I am not going to put in a request to do otherwise. What I have done is ask that my family and friends are spared. He might decide I have done what he has asked (spread the information about him and the universe) and so grant me a special favor. I do not expect any favors but will be grateful if this one is granted.

What I can tell you is that there are probably many people who welcome a die-off (meaning no vaccine) because they also see that there is no other solution. Some are atheists and some are theists. I have no problem with death because I think we reincarnate. I accept that suffering is part of life, and humankind will never be free of suffering. Some wanting the die-off hope that they will be spared and that some of their enemies (including disliked politicians or a ruling class or an under-class) takes the biggest hit.

People will reassess their beliefs and values - that is for sure.

[CliveG]

So my wife has to baby-sit the granddaughter, and I have to feed the dogs - and myself. A power-outage began so no TV. Our Ethernet is not yet connected to our TV so I am left with the internet. I have deep-cycle batteries, a battery charger and solar panels so I can get through an evening on the computer. The power cut happened as I started watching a movie called "The East". I though it might be on Netflix and so logged in for the first time in quite a few months. Skipping through, I found a dcoumentary called "Pandemic". How serendipitous is that? See how God guides me to information.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/feb/05/pandemic-netflixs-new-series-about-global-outbreaks-is-eerily-
timed-and-moved-me-to-tears
While coronavirus dominates news headlines, Netflix is streaming its six-part series on how prepared (or not) the world is to deal with a new pandemic.
Pandemic: How to Prevent an Outbreak starts with a theory: that we’re due for a new, fast-moving deadly virus. It’s been 100 years since a deadly influenza virus killed 50 to 100 million people, at a time when the global population was just two billion (cue black and white footage of people in old timey face masks, with loads of mass graves being dug).
Now there are nearly eight billion people in the world, as expert Dr. Dennis Carroll, director of USAID’s Emerging Threats Unit, warns in Pandemic: “When we talk about another flu pandemic happening, it’s not a matter of if, but when.”
Could the “when” that haunts this scary series be now?

Just started watching. I see they have episode 5 called "Prayers Might Work".

[CliveG]

Skipping and jumping. So so.

Episode 2 at 14 min. Muslim lady doctor praying. "Do no harm and help others." Do not drink. Seems good to me.

[CliveG]

Netflix. Jumps around a lot and so do I. But some good stuff.

Episode 3 at 22 min. How trials test faith and build maturity.

Episode 2 at 16 min. Special pathogen. 1) High mortality 2) Causes panic 3) Hard to treat 4) Very contagious

[CliveG]

Putin is a patient man. And patient men make dangerous enemies. They will wait for their chance.

The US deep state has pushed Trump into a conflict with Russia. Sanctions hurt Russia. Oil is Russia's biggest non-nuke weapon - and they are now using it. They will push US shale producers into bankruptcy. They have the ability to do it. Do you think it is coincidence that they are making US stock markets even worse?

Logic applied to facts can sometimes be simple.

[CliveG]

This articles illustrates some of the issues I have been talking about regarding scientific disinformation to discredit faith based methodologies. While atheists have a part to play in keeping religion "honest", it often goes too far and tries to destroy anything connected to faith.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/03/11/alcoholics-anonymous-aa-helps-people-stay-sober-longer-study-finds/5008835002/
The well-known program that seeks to help people with alcohol use disorder, Alcoholics Anonymous, has long been criticized for not having the medical research to back up its efficacy. Until now.

A new study published by the medical journal Cochrane Database of Systematic Review found the peer-led program not only helps people get sober, but it also has higher rates of continuous sobriety compared with professional mental health therapy, such as cognitive behavioral therapy.

The study is important because it dispels misinformation about the program, said lead author Dr. John Kelly, a professor of psychiatry and addiction medicine at Harvard Medical School.

“In the popular press, there’s been reports of AA not working or being even harmful for people,” he said. “So, we wanted to clarify the scientific picture to the highest scientific standard.”

The study had the opposite findings of a similar study published by Cochrane in 2006 that found “no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF (twelve-step facilitation) approaches for reducing alcohol dependence of problems." The 2006 review included eight trials with about 3,400 people, while the new review included 27 studies of more than 10,500 people.

Psychologist Keith Humphreys, co-author of the study and a Stanford University psychiatry professor, said mental health professionals – including him early in his career – are frequently skeptical of AA's effectiveness. Psychologists and psychiatrists are often trained to provide cognitive behavioral therapy and motivational enhancement therapy to treat patients with alcohol-use disorder.  He recalled thinking, “How dare these people do things that I have all these degrees to do?”

It is the spiritual aspect of AA that turns people off and sends them to alternatives, said Smart Recovery executive director Mark Ruth. AA and other 12-step programs recommend the use of a higher power to help members recognize something, even if it isn't God or any religious deity, has a power greater than they are.

"We believe in faith as part of a person’s personal choice, not as part of a program or a tool," he said.