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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  4. Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
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Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?

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Offline puppypower (OP)

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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #40 on: 24/12/2019 11:37:20 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 22/12/2019 15:51:20
Quote from: puppypower on 22/12/2019 15:23:47
I did an analysis of dehydrating cells and replacing water with other solvents. Nothing works.

That makes about as much sense as trying to fit a spark plug into a diesel engine, finding that there isn't a place for it and concluding that diesel engines can't work.

Just because life here is based on water doesn't mean that all life must be.

On some hypothetical planet "Water Ammonia works, because everything has had to evolved within an aqueous amoniacal nano-environment. ".
You can't rule that out so you can't say that water is a requirement for life.

If you did find a planet with ammonia based life it's possible that water would screw things up.

I would suggest that you start a topic "Can ammonia or other solvents, besides water, be the basis for life?" Then you can develop your logic and arguments to see if it adds up. I would not mind helping out. I am doing this analysis with water, becuase this job is much easier, since the organic side of this equation is well known. All I need to do is infer the role of water in the equation starting with known things. Your job will be much more difficult.

The most obvious role of water is connected to the water and oil analogy, that I have been using. Water and oil do not spontaneously mix, and remain an emulsion, because mixing creates surface tension and adds free energy potential to the system. When the free energy is allowed to minimize we get a phase separation of the organics (of aqueous based life) into organelles and other types of cellular structures and water.  The free energy potential is high enough for this to be repeatable, such as is observed in repeatable protein folding and daughters cells that look like mom.

This analogy is one of the main problem for others solvents, such as ammonia. An ammonia-oil analogy does not phase separate quite the same way. Ammonia is both a good polar solvent as well as an excellent degreaser. It would maintain an emulsion with most of the organics used for water based life. Instead of repeatable ordering, that is needed for consistent life, we would get far more transient randomness.

I am not an expert with ammonia, but I sense you would need to come up with a way to force a clean phase separation by controlling the organic solvent power of ammonia. Alternately, you may have to  come up with a replacement set of materials for the normal organic materials of water based life. These new materials will not be as obvious, as amino acid and nucleic acid base polymers, that are found naturally in the universe, such as in asteroids.
« Last Edit: 24/12/2019 11:41:26 by puppypower »
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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #41 on: 24/12/2019 12:04:16 »
My time is limited, today, but I would like to look at neurons in light of the water- oil analogy. Neurons, besides never replicating, have among the highest membrane potentials of all cells. They use up to 90% of their ATP energy maintaining membrane potential. They burn so many calories maintaining the membrane potential they are never able to store sufficient energy to increase the internal potential and initiate cell cycles. Instead, the water side dominates inside the neurons for the rest of its life.

The membrane is a different animal in terms of a neuron, This is the zone where 90% of its energy is being constantly inputted. Therefore, the neuron membrane is slanted toward the oil side of the equation. One observed affect are "bubbles" will form, in the oil analogy; membrane, that we call axons and dendrite branches.

The energy pumped into the membrane is like an agitator which adds membrane surface area in contact with the outside water; surface tension value equivalent. The internal neuron water side dominance creates a unique environment for the neuron DNA, relative to other cells, allowing the DNA to play an information storage role; water side information; memory. In other words, a strong internal water side potential, forces the protein and other structures into near perfect phase separation; no bubbles, that reflects the impact of the external neural information environment; memory storage into structures.

If we look at synapses, we have two areas of neuron membrane "bubbles", in near contact, but separated by a gap; synaptic gap. This gap also reflects the oil side of the potential. Instead of the bubbles induced to combine to reflect a water side potential, the surface tension is maintained by an oil side potential. There is sustained potential in the water that is bathing the synaptic matrix.

If we return to a single neuron, the Na+K+ pumping adds energy to the membrane that is reflected in the membrane potential, as well as ion concentration gradients. If the membrane was a perfect barrier the membrane potential could keep on increasing. In the real world, the free energy in the membrane potential, animates the water, allowing neurons to spontaneously discharge potential, if and when the potential reaches a threshold. This threshold is regulated via neurotransmitters that can help destabilize or stabilize the water.

Once a neuron fires, the potential within the membrane is discharged. The discharge potential goes in two directions; into the inside and outside water. The outside energy aspect of the discharge, energizes the synaptic grid, while the discharge inside adds potential to the material grid that stores memory; forms inner bubbles. These short term bubbles are useful for updating the material memory grid. The neuron quickly restores the membrane potential, completing the writing process as the water reforms the more stable material configurations.

The concentration gradient, that is induced at the membrane, reflects an entropy potential. In other words, left to the their own devices, these segregated membrane cations would spontaneously form uniform solutions driven by the second law; entropy. The Na+K+ pumps use energy to reversed the direction of cationic entropy creating an entropy potential; too low. When the membrane discharges, entropy potential is released, within the membrane as well as inside and outside membrane. There is a push=wave to increase complexity in the water on both the inside and outside of the membrane. Since hydrogen bonds are like little switches, this increase in water entropy reflects a flip of switches to the polar side, which has a different impact on the synaptic grid and internal material configurations.
 




 
« Last Edit: 25/12/2019 21:23:37 by puppypower »
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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #42 on: 28/12/2019 13:53:16 »
 If you look at male and female, the female human, on the average, have more natural body fat, while the male have more muscle mass. This distinction implies women are naturally designed to be on the oil side of the potential. Men are more designed to be on the water side in terms of the water-oil analogy.

The enhanced oil side of the female body potential has an impact on amplifying cell cycles, which is designed for having babies. The embryo/fetus is not wired into the mother's nervous system allowing the mother body and blood potential to have an enhanced external influence over the cell proliferation of her unborn. The unborn also uses its own nervous system, for cellular differentiation induction and control.

In nature, the female or mother animal has more things to do connected to her offspring. Her higher oil side potential; body, sets a higher potential with her brain, causing more brain discharge to her body, for instinct and action. The male has less body induced brain discharge to the body, which allows the male brain to lower brain potential, internally within the brain; thought, imagination and willpower.

In terms of neural potential flow within the brain, all potential flow goes to the thalamus region in the center of the brain. This is the most wired part of the brain and acts like a central switching station for distributing the potential to the body and for recycle to other parts of the brain. The male and female brains, due to the difference in natural body potential, have sightly different natural switching priorities. These can be altered with willpower.

The female menstrual cycle and the associated emotions is related to her higher body induction causing thalamus potential to the limbic system. Males are better at repressing emotions, due to the natural flow thalamus switched more to the brain stem; colder blooded intellect and muscle potential.

With will power the thalamus priorities can be tweaked. A feminized male can shift priority more to the limbic system; warmer, at the expense of common sense; feeling first. The brain stem is more bare bones cold blooded survival, where facts are important for triggering instinct. The cute lion; limbic emotions, may not be the appropriate feedback for survival. Lion is bad; period, is better.

 
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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #43 on: 28/12/2019 16:08:01 »
That post is so damn stupid I think I lost 10 IQ points just reading it. 
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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #44 on: 29/12/2019 23:32:55 »
Quote from: Origin on 28/12/2019 16:08:01
That post is so damn stupid I think I lost 10 IQ points just reading it. 


You need to go back to the very first posts, where I develop the basic chemical background needed to understand the relationship of water to the organics of life. Life evolved in water, therefore water was nano-environment in which the organics of life evolve, from day one. This environment help the natural selection process, for the organic chemicals of life.

An an analogy, physical environments, such as the hot desert or the frozen tundra, sets constraints for life. Not all life will be selected by each environment. What will be selected needs to able to adapt to the unique potentials of that environment. The same is true with water and life at the nanoscale. The organics of life were naturally selected based on an aqueous environment.

This can be demonstrated in the lab by taking a single cell and dehydrating it and then adding others solvent to see if it will come back to life. Since the molecules of the cell evolved in water, all the biomaterials are unresponsive in any other solvent. The organics are all there but there is no life. No enzyme or the DNA works properly. These materials were hand picked by water over the eons. If we add water, everything works and life appears. My goal is to show how the organic hand fits in the water glove.

My last post was just a broad based application, contrasting the stereotypical male and female, in terms of the potential in the water, induced by the organics difference of each; fat venus muscle,  and how that potential environment impacts the water of the brain. This will makes more sense, if you start from the beginning, since none of this is convention taught in school. Water is the most researched substance known to science. I have tried to rearranged this data in a new way so it can better interface life, via the selected organics of life.


 
« Last Edit: 29/12/2019 23:35:16 by puppypower »
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Re: Are Water and the Organics copartners in life?
« Reply #45 on: 02/01/2020 19:03:13 »
The thalamus region of the brain, in the center of the brain, is the most wired region of the brain. It is the central switching station where nearly all brain signals goes. This status, as most wired means it has the most "bubbles" and therefore the most surface tension, making it the zone where the water has the highest potential. This zone of highest potential is the center of consciousness; inner self. The potential of the thalamus water attempts to lower, with potential flow down a wide range of reverse pathways some into the body.

The neurons of the brain add potential to their outer membranes; ion pumping. When neurons fire this potential is released and finds it way to the thalamus, keeping this zone at highest potential; amplification. The amplification of potential at the thalamus is more than just raw potential energy, since it also contains information. 

If we go back to the hydrogen bond, it is binary switch, that can shift between polar and covalent character, with both settings forming stable hydrogen bonds. Each setting contains different amounts of enthalpy and entropy, and each expresses different volumes, with the polar switch smaller. The former aspects defines free energy, while the latter defines mechanical muscle through volume changes.

In the case of water, binary information stored in switch settings not only contains the character of information, but this character of information, is also paralleled by the potentials in the switch settings. The information is manipulated by the process of adjusting potentials in the hydrogen bonds, as a way to lower the potential. The water and oil bubble analogy still applies, with the information switches undergoing a lowering or increase in surface tension; bubbles combine or break up; integrating or differentiating data. 

This is much different from computer memory. With computer memory the on-off switches are a one trick pony. Hydrogen bonding switches have free energy based differences at each switch setting. In the case of hydrogen bonding, by manipulating the free energy aspects of the switches the contained binary information aligns with the laws of physics; natural instinct and inner self.  Computer information aligns with human convention; ego consciousness.
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