[Jolly2 (OP)]

I was wondering if gravity couldn't be an emergent property of the strong and weak necular forces?

Gravity doesn't effect them,  which would make sense if they created Gravity.

[Kryptid]

This sounds like a New Theory, so I'll move it there.

Gravity doesn't effect them

How do you know that? The vector bosons that transmit the weak force have a rest mass (and quite a bit of it, at that). The mesons that transmit the strong force between nucleons do as well. The gluons inside the mesons, though lacking an invariant mass, would have a mass associated with their energy.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

This sounds like a New Theory, so I'll move it there.

Gravity doesn't effect them

How do you know that?

I dont I heard it stated recently on something I was watching.

The vector bosons that transmit the weak force have a rest mass (and quite a bit of it, at that).

But that could be the cause, mass creates gravity no? Mass curves space ...

The mesons that transmit the strong force between nucleons do as well. The gluons inside the mesons, though lacking an invariant mass, would have a mass associated with their energy.

Ok.

Just thinking about the univsere as a hologram. 
Hologram being a sheet not the image the sheet produces.

That the week and strong force as the building blocks of the hologram sheet, the mass they create then bends the sheet, hence gravity.

These forces allow mass to form.

[Kryptid]

But that could be the cause, mass creates gravity no? Mass curves space ...

So why exclude the electromagnetic force?

That the week and strong force as the building blocks of the hologram sheet, the mass they create then bends the sheet, hence gravity.

These forces allow mass to form.

Photons have relativistic mass but do not interact with either of the nuclear forces.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

But that could be the cause, mass creates gravity no? Mass curves space ...

So why exclude the electromagnetic force?

I'm not was about to add that, electro magnetic fields also would be

That the week and strong force as the building blocks of the hologram sheet, the mass they create then bends the sheet, hence gravity.

These forces allow mass to form.

Photons have relativistic mass but do not interact with either of the nuclear forces.

Aren't they a bi-product, an explosion from a sun or a torch?  To have a sun or a torch to create that by product of radiation you need the foundation of strong and weak forces. So I would suggest it doesn't matter if they dont interact they are them selves a bi product of the strong or weak forces acting upon an area.

You point is like saying "urine isnt effected by DNA" as a terrible analogy. DNA builds the body that can produce urine, but it's a bi product in many ways there is no direct relationship with DNA and urine.

So I wouldn't expect photons to interact with the strong or weak forces because they are late stage development, the strong and weak forces are foundational forces and photons emerge in a world already created, photons would not be involved in the process of the foundations... trying to think of a good analogy... walking in a desert compared to walking in the street? Terrible.

[Kryptid]

Aren't they a bi-product, an explosion from a sun or a torch?

Nope, all you need is a changing electromagnetic field.

To have a sun or a torch to create that by product of radiation you need the foundation of strong and weak forces. So I would suggest it doesn't matter if they dont interact they are them selves a bi product of the strong or weak forces acting upon an area.

Not based on known physics. The only force needed is electromagnetism.

You point is like saying "urine isnt effected by DNA" as a terrible analogy. DNA builds the body that can produce urine, but it's a bi product in many ways there is no direct relationship with DNA and urine.

So then explain why a changing electromagnetic field producing photons has anything to do with the nuclear forces.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Aren't they a bi-product, an explosion from a sun or a torch?

Nope, all you need is a changing electromagnetic field.

Another process for another byproduct.

Electron waves also

To have a sun or a torch to create that by product of radiation you need the foundation of strong and weak forces. So I would suggest it doesn't matter if they dont interact they are them selves a bi product of the strong or weak forces acting upon an area.

Not based on known physics. The only force needed is electromagnetism.

Still a byproduct, a radiation caused by a reaction.

You point is like saying "urine isnt effected by DNA" as a terrible analogy. DNA builds the body that can produce urine, but it's a bi product in many ways there is no direct relationship with DNA and urine.

So then explain why a changing electromagnetic field producing photons has anything to do with the nuclear forces.

I'm sure you really talking about electron waves.

Because the weak and string forces are building the structure on with those reactions can take place.

[Kryptid]

Another process for another byproduct.

Still a byproduct, a radiation caused by a reaction.

So which part of the changing electromagnetic field producing a photon involves the nuclear forces?

I'm sure you really talking about electron waves.

No, I'm not. Electrons don't have to be involved at all.

Because the weak and string forces are building the structure on with those reactions can take place.

How, exactly?

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Another process for another byproduct.

Still a byproduct, a radiation caused by a reaction.

So which part of the changing electromagnetic field producing a photon involves the nuclear forces?

Doesnt necessarily involve any dircetly as an emergent property

That's like asking, what part of the brain s DNA made a person think about coffee.

Because the weak and string forces are building the structure on with those reactions can take place.

How, exactly?

I believe the science behind the strong and weak force is fairly well understood. We are all here because these forces allow atoms to combine.

[Kryptid]

That's like asking, what part of the brain s DNA made a person think about coffee.

The nuclear forces aren't remotely akin DNA. They don't encode information, mutate or replicate.

I believe the science behind the strong and weak force is fairly well understood. We are all here because these forces allow atoms to combine.

Which has nothing to do with how objects come to produce gravity. Subatomic particles have mass and energy without having to combine into atoms.

[Bored chemist]

Jolly seems to be wondering if all nigeoos are thuctanable.
Maybe they are , maybe they aren't.
But since he has little idea what an nigeoo is, and no idea what thructaning is, there's no way he will ever know.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

That's like asking, what part of the brain s DNA made a person think about coffee.

The nuclear forces aren't remotely akin DNA. They don't encode information, mutate or replicate.

They dont have to be it was a simile.

I believe the science behind the strong and weak force is fairly well understood. We are all here because these forces allow atoms to combine.

Which has nothing to do with how objects come to produce gravity. Subatomic particles have mass and energy without having to combine into atoms.

Sure, but my idea relates to gravity emerging with their combination.  Doesnt matter that they have some mass before they combine. They have more mass after wards.

The maths we have is predictive it explains what gravity will do, they dont explain the why of gravity.

[puppypower]

If you look at how gravity acts in nature, mass will attract, accumulate, and concentrate, which causes local space-time to contract; GR. In the limit, of the black hole, space-time contracts and begins to approach a space-time point, similar to what one would see traveling at the speed of light. I would conclude gravity is one of several paths, for returning matter and inertial reference back to the ground state at the speed of light reference.

You guys are looking at his backwards. You are assuming that inertial reference is the ground state, since light moves faster than inertial states. This is based on the long standing tradition of the earth being the relative center of the universe. However, matter and antimatter only form at the upper limits of energy. This places matter and inertial at highest potential in terms of particles.

When energy, as photons, is given off by the other three forces of nature, inertial particles give off particles at the speed of light. They give off particles defining lower potential, while lowering their own potential. All four forces are integrated, by the same inertial need to reach the same ground state at the speed of light. Sequential application of these forces allows all higher levels of inertial to head toward the ground state.

The main confusion in this model and orientation are photons. These move at the speed of light, however, they also contain finite and inertial attributes in space and time; wavelength and frequency. These are not part of the ground state. Photons are not exactly in the ground state due to these inertial aspects. They contain inertial potential relative to the ground state. This potential is lowered via the universal red shift which causes all photons to lower energy; increase wavelength.  In the limit, they will all reach infinite wavelength and zero frequency; ground state.

If we look at the speed of light ground state, this model assumes it has zero energy. The question becomes how can a ground state with zero energy, create matter and inertial references, that all contain potential energy relative to this zero ground state?

The answer is, this zero energy state has to do with free energy G= zero, where G =H-TS. H is enthalpy or internal energy, S is entropy and T is temperature. Enthalpy and internal energy H, such as zero point energy, can be positive and even infinite, as along as entropy S approaches infinite, we will still have zero free energy.

When we go the speed of light, space-time breaks down due to the mathematical discontinuity caused by division by 0 in SR. At the c-ground state, time and space can act independently of each other, thereby allowing infinite entropy, since all restrictions in space-time become moot. One reason this is so, is at the speed of light, the inertial universe would appear to be contracted to a point-instant. This means we can overlap the entire inertial point-instant universe in an instant, and be everywhere, simultaneously. This omnipresence artifact is caused by space-time breaking down at the c-reference. It also allows for infinite entropy; any state is possible.

To form the universe from nothing, all we need to do is lower entropy, to release some of the contained energy within entropy, Entropy absorbs anergy as it increases and releases this energy when it is induced to decrease. A return to infinite entropy, then drives the evolution of the inertial universe. This takes back the energy, in many ways, simultaneously, in all places.

If you look at the imagination, one can pretend to fly to the moon, without gear and without a spaceship. Although this fantasy is possible by consciousness, this is not possible in space-time. There are physical limitations imposed by space-time. The imagination would need to be able to include extra time and/or extra space, compared to someone acting exclusively and instinctively to the limits imposed by space-time. With the imagination, comes changes in nature, that can step outside the natural trajectory of space-time.

If you look at probability, this phenomena is not exactly based on cause and affect. It uses fuzzy dice since the output affect can be variable in terms of space-time. For example, say we assume a random series of event started the first life on earth replicators. These event may not have followed, sequentially, in space and time from other things, or else it would be reproducible. Instead it is unique event in space-time, yet it will go on to define a ripple affect within the future of space-time. Life has the property of increasing entropy, as it reproduces and metabolizes. It appears to be connected to the impact of the ground state.

[Kryptid]

Sure, but my idea relates to gravity emerging with their combination.  Doesnt matter that they have some mass before they combine. They have more mass after wards.

So now you need to provide evidence that this is the case. What experiment can be used to test your idea?

Why do the electron, muon and tau particles have very different masses despite the fact that they all interact with the nuclear forces the same?

[Bored chemist]

However, matter and antimatter only form at the upper limits of energy.

This is still wrong, no matter how often you post it.

It uses fuzzy dice since the output affect can be variable in terms of space-time

Postmodern poetry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_dice

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Sure, but my idea relates to gravity emerging with their combination.  Doesnt matter that they have some mass before they combine. They have more mass after wards.

So now you need to provide evidence that this is the case. What experiment can be used to test your idea?

I think you're running ahead,  I made a guess, first you have to compute the implications,  experiment has to come later.

Gravity as an emergent property of gluons

Why do the electron, muon and tau particles have very different masses despite the fact that they all interact with the nuclear forces the same?

No idea,  Those three Leptons are all electrically charged. Do the other three neutral Leptons also interact with the necular forces the same way?


Still the attraction and repulsion of magnetism seem to atleast  appear similar to the weak forces attraction and repulsion causing particles to change. They work in a similar way...

[Bored chemist]

Let's start at the beginning.

I was wondering if gravity couldn't be an emergent property of the strong and weak necular forces?

For gravity to be an emergent property of the strong and weak nuclear forces it would have to be a property of them.

But it isn't.
If you disagree, please provide evidence.

[Kryptid]

I think you're running ahead

Without evidence, there's no reason to think that your guess is correct.

Do the other three neutral Leptons also interact with the necular forces the same way?

Yes.

Still the attraction and repulsion of magnetism seem to atleast  appear similar to the weak forces attraction and repulsion causing particles to change.

The weak force doesn't have attraction and repulsion. It doesn't work that way.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

I think you're running ahead

Without evidence, there's no reason to think that your guess is correct.

Until you calculate the Implications of it being true, you cant make an experiment to test it.

Do the other three neutral Leptons also interact with the necular forces the same way?

Yes.

Still the attraction and repulsion of magnetism seem to atleast  appear similar to the weak forces attraction and repulsion causing particles to change.

The weak force doesn't have attraction and repulsion. It doesn't work that way.

I'm talking about the semantics, when particles come into close enough contact,  one can expel an electron or collect one, repulsion as expulsion and attraction as reception are just words possibly expressing a similar function. Is the election expelled or repulsed?

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Let's start at the beginning.

I was wondering if gravity couldn't be an emergent property of the strong and weak necular forces?

For gravity to be an emergent property of the strong and weak nuclear forces it would have to be a property of them.

No it wouldn't,  as an emergent property,  it would emerge after they have influenced atoms to join together and be related to the atomic masses they help create.