[Lewis Thomson (OP)]

David has submitted this question to The Naked Scientists.

"If it is the case a massive blackhole is at the centre of every galaxy, what was the creation of this massive blackhole, if we are to believe blackholes are the ultimate death of a star? Did the early creation of the Universe result in space and time being filled with stars before blackholes were created, thus before galaxies were created???"

Leave your answers down in the comments below...

[Janus]

Some stars will become black holes, but only if they were massive enough to begin with.  But you don't necessarily need for there to be a star first for a black hole to form.  When the universe was young, it was much more compact, under such conditions, clumps of material could have collapsed into what are called "primordial black holes".  One of these could have formed the "seed" around which the galaxy first formed.  Alternatively, the collection of material that condensed and eventually formed the galaxy could have just become so compact at the center that the material there collapsed into a black hole under its own gravitational attraction.  We don't know for sure which was the case. 

We do know however, that even after the black hole and galaxy have formed, the black hole continues to "feed" on material in the central part of the galaxy for some time.  This is what produces quasars in very distant galaxies(The distance also means we are seeing them when they were young.)  These strong sources of radiation are caused by the "death throes" of material spiraling into the central black hole.( Eventually, the vast majority of material in the vicinity is cleared out and the quasar quiets down.)

[evan_au]

One of the goals of the James Webb Space Telescope (currently 95% of the way to it's final orbit) is to image early galaxies, and take a census of how many had black holes.
- At present, in visible light, we can only see the quasars which (it is thought) are beaming a relativistic jet in our direction.
- In Infra-Red, JWST should be able to see galaxies with high red-shift, where the relativistic jet is not pointed in our direction...

[Eternal Student]

Hi.

   I'd have to agree with the gist of what has already been said.

Here's a summary:
  Typically stars (well some of them) collapse to form  black holes.  So you would think you need some stars first.
  However, black holes are very important for galaxy and star formation.  For example,  they are exteremely useful for gathering interstellar gas and other debris, so that you have enough stuff in one place to make stars.

    There's no certainty about which came first during the early universe -  stars or black holes.

   As outlined by others, there's no absolute requirement that a black hole was originally a star, there are other possible origins.   No one has mentioned the possibility of what are called "eternal black holes" - i.e. black holes that were eternal or always existed instead of being formed at a definite time after the big bang.  The maximally extended solutions of the Scwarzschild metric allow for such things (this is not a guarantee that they exist, just that they are theoretically possible or sensible).
    Also we've already had a recent thread discussing star formation  (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=83801.0).   Under a simple model, some gas clouds should collapse under their own gravity when they are cool enough, there's no need for any other sort of "seed" or source of gravity.

    So, it would seem that black holes and star formation will follow quickly after each other and it doesn't really matter too much which happened first.  In some regions of the early universe there could have been a black hole first with no stars around,    while in some other areas of the early universe there could have been a star without any black holes around.

Best Wishes.

[yor_on]

It made me think of micro/mini black holes. Those created 'by themselves' more or less. Sounds quite weird but it may be possible. You might just need to put constraints on the dimensions involved where they come to be. As I read it, it connects to 'zero point energies' and what dimensions that might be involved.

" A number of theories about the universe suggest the existence of extra dimensions of reality, each folded up into sizes ranging from as tiny as a proton to as big as a fraction of a millimeter. At distances comparable to the sizes of these extra dimensions, these models suggest gravity may become far stronger than normal. "

https://www.livescience.com/27811-creating-mini-black-holes.html
=

And if that is correct I don't think you can set a time to it. Time starts with the universe. Before it there is no time line, as far as I know.