[Ylide (OP)]

Well, I just took the MCAT (Medical College Aptitude Test) this weekend.  Everyone wish me luck on my scoring.  It gets to hang around my neck like an albatross for 60 days while they score it.  [V]

I wouldn't wish that test on my worst enemy.  Do they have an equivalent test for admission to medical school in the UK?  Or anywhere else for that matter?



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[cuso4]

Jay, are planning on doing a medical degree?

Here in the UK, there is a exam called BMAT (don't know what it stands for). Some universities ask prospective undergraduates to take this exam and may make offers depending on the result.

Angel

[tweener]

Good luck Jay!  

I always try to avoid big tests like that.  I hate tests.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[MayoFlyFarmer]

quote:Originally posted by cuso4

Jay, are planning on doing a medical degree?

Here in the UK, there is a exam called BMAT (don't know what it stands for). Some universities ask prospective undergraduates to take this exam and may make offers depending on the result.

Angel

we have other tests like that in the US the one Jay is refering to is for prospective medical school applicants (and a few other related fields) comming OUt of their undergard not going into their undergard (those would likely be the ACT or SAT).

Good luck on the scoring Jay!  The girl that i share an office with just took hers on saturday too....  I can't believe the amount of studying she put in for taht thing, and when I asked her how it went she sounded skeptical.... crazy!  If there's ever a "Dr." in from of my name its definately going to be a PhD not an MD (not that that is an easy road either, but at least you only have to take the GRE's not an MCAT!)

We don't want the loonies taking over!

[Donnah]

Good luck Jason.

[bezoar]

Good luck Jay.  With your good mind, I'm sure you did great.

[Ylide (OP)]

>Jay, are planning on doing a medical degree?
>
>Angel

Yes, I'm planning on entering a combination M.D./Ph.D. program.  It's a degree funded by one of our government organizations (The National Institute of Health, or NIH)  that prepares you for high level medical research.  I start applying not long after I get my scores back.  It's 7-9 years of school....4 years of medical school, 2 years of graduate classes, and 305 years of Ph.D. dissertation research.  It's all funded so I would pay no tuition and collect a small stipend as well.  When all is said and done, you walk out of it with both degrees and a great education for medical research.  

They're very selective, and I haven't figured out a backup plan if I don't get in.  I'm debating straight-out medical school (which is not cheap but would provide a rewarding well-paying career afterwards) or a Ph.D. in pathology or toxicology which would probably be free if I get accepted and teach or do research for the department but might not give me the research oppurtunities I'm looking for.





[]

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[cuso4]

Good luck Jay !!!!!

Angel

[MayoFlyFarmer]

wow, thats a tough program 9but you're right that its worth it!)  I work with one of our phd/md students here, he's a really nice guy and really smart, but I feel sorry for him knowing how much school he has left.. You should apply here!  Mayo rocks!
I'm confused as to why you tink you wouild have better research oppertunities as an MD than a PhD???  While I now know that there are plenty of oppertunities for research for MDs (which I didn't used to believe to be true)  I still think you can do anything and more (in terms of reearch) with a PhD vs. an MD degree.  Just no oppertunity to do clinical practice.

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!

[Ylide (OP)]

Actually, the Mayo Clinic is one of my choices when I apply.  I'm applying to, in this order of preference:

University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
University of Rochester (NY, not Minnesota)
Oregon Health Sciences University
The Mayo Clinic
University of New Mexico (Albequerque)
Cornell University

Hopefully I'll get into one of them.  I meant that the MD might not have as good research oppurtunities as the PhD...my grammar just wasn't very clear there.  [|)]

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[chris]

quote:Originally posted by cannabinoid
and 305 years of Ph.D. dissertation research.

Crikey - that's a long PhD - most people (like me) get their's in about 3 years []

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx

[Ylide (OP)]

In the US, 5 years is standard for a Ph.D program.  2 years of course work, then 3 years of dissertation research.  Generally, they give you comprehensive exams after the 2 years of course work and if you pass, you get to go on and do your dissertation, and if you fail you leave school with a Master's degree.  Medical school is typically 4 years, not counting any specialist training, 2 years of course work, 2 years of clinical rotations.   If you want to be a specialist (internal medicine, neurology, what-have-you) you're looking at another 2-4 years of school and clinical training.





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[MayoFlyFarmer]

chris, I didn't realize you had a PhD??? i thought you were an MD.  Do you have both as well.  
I agree with Jay that (in the states) 3 yrs is WAY short for a PhD most people I know take 4-6.  i know some who have taken up to 8 (bad luck on projects, tough review commitee's etc.) but three would be amazing.

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!

[chris]

I agree that 3 years is not very long for a PhD. Indeed most people overrun by a year anyway. For this reason many of the funding bodies are moving towards a 4 year PhD programme in which students spend the first year migrating through various labs acquiring a panoply of laboratory techniques and exposure to various disciplines. The aim is to help people in their choice of project and enable them to hit the ground running once they start research proper.

That said, I think that it is unreasonable to lengthen the PhD much more without addressing the issue of funding. Science is already seriously underfunded and, partly as a result, under-subscribed. Who would choose science, poor pay, no long term guarantee of employment and frequent moves when the corporate sector pays you twice as much ?

If students face an even longer period of debt with no perceived reward then we can only expect the trend in declining numbers of scientists to continue.

In relation to myself, yes, I have an MB and a PhD. I did my PhD at the same time as my medical degree. (In the UK an MD is a research qualification that some doctors do in place of a PhD).

I did 3 years of preclinical medicine (which included an extra degree in Neuroscience), then a year of pure clinical training, 3 years of PhD with some clinical each week, then a further full year of clinical training. Then they unleashed me on the world as a Dr Dr. I'm now back in Cambridge as Clinical Lecturer in Virology meaning that I spend (in theory) half my time doing research, and the other half of the time on my medical commitments.

That said I'm currently taking 6 months off to visit Australia where I am working at the ABC Science Unit at Radio National - ...sorry, you cannot view external links. To see them, please REGISTER or LOGIN - contributing to the science show, the health report and ABC Radio National Breakfast.

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx

[Donnah]

Whew!  Hats off to you Chris, that was a tough row to hoe.  You must have had no life except for studying during those years.  It helps that you are a brainiac, but you had to do the work.  Kudos.

[roadrunnerrita]

I just finished my MCAT two weeks ago, and I am looking into applying. Anybody have good reccommendations for essays?

[Ylide (OP)]

As in essays for medical school applications?  I don't know, I haven't really put thought into what I'd write about.

Welcome to the forums, btw.  Where are you thinking about applying?

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[roadrunnerrita]

Thanks Cannabinoid!

I'm not sure where I'll be applying. I've done this once before, and I got wait listed but never accepted off of the lists I was on. I'll most likely apply to California schools, since I am a resident now (whoo-hoo!), and they are all good and cheap. I will probably apply to the other schools I was wait listed at again, as well as a few others that I missed the first time. Right now I am trying to decide if I should apply this year or wait another year to enhance my resume. I'm  quite different than I was before, but I still think I could do a few more things to make myself better, like do more volunteer work, update and publish the research I did two summers ago, and take a few more college classes (I could fit in 2-3 while working) to show them that I am serious about going to medical school.

[dalya]

Jay:

I was on the Immunology Ph.D program at UCHSC.  Colorado ROCKSSSSSSSSS!!!  That said, I was just back in Denver a couple of months ago for the first time in 3 years and it has gone a bit weird what with the recession and all.  They have a good MD PhD program there, but the best reason to go is for the mountains and because it is ever so slightly more chilled out than many other universities.  Which PhD department do you think you would go into?  I would love to give you the real scoop on things (ie tongue-lash some old nemeses)

[Ylide (OP)]

Dalya,

Wow, it's great to know someone else who has gone to one of the schools I'm considering.  I'm looking into the Experimental Pathology department as my Ph.D. program.  I have an internship with them for 9 weeks this summer so that will give me some indication as to how I feel about that field.  Glad to hear the school is good, though.  

How do you like immunology?  I'm getting more and more interested in autoimmune disorders lately, I'd like to hear about some upcoming research in the area.  That's also where I'll probably focus my dissertation work, even though the Path. department at the HSC tends towards cancer research.  

Tell me some more about the faculty you know from either department.



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[MayoFlyFarmer]

My best friend here works in experimental path (sounds like boring stuff to me) [xx(]  I like smaller things personally.  I'm kind-of associated with our imuno dept.  but to be quite honest  that stuff bores me even more [:p]  man we have different tastes!  whats wrong with good old BMB???

That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!

[Ylide (OP)]

So next spring when I get a call for an interview at Mayo, you're gonna show me the good bars in the area, right Justin?   [:p]

How IS the M.D./Ph.D. program there, anyway?  Some of the ones I've looked at are very cobbled together and arbitrary.  I'm applying to Mayo because it's one of the few good schools with a MSTP program that is somewhere I could stand living, but I don't know much about it other than they really botched a surgery my girlfriend had there 8 years ago.





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[MayoFlyFarmer]

hah, sorry to hear bout your girlfriend.  hope it wasn't a breast enlargement she had botched (for your sake).  I don't know much about the actual PhD/MD PROGRAM itself, but I do get to see what the student who works on our floor goes through to some degree, it seems to be a really good education (then again I've never looked into any of teh other programs to compare).  But his advisor is our dept. head (an MD who's been doing inunology research for more years than I've been alive) which is a much more senior faculty member than any of the other grad studenst I know here, and your advisor is obviously going to make a huge difference in your experience in the program.  They always seem to be discussing something or another, and his advisor is always picking his brain during journal clubs, and departmetal confrences.... really pushing him.  From what I see our student going through he seems to be getting a great education, but I don't even know who any of the other students in the program are.  I think they only accept like 12 per year here.
when you get closer to making a decision I could pass any questions you have along to Cody if you would like.

That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!

[Ylide (OP)]

Lol, no, it was breast enlargment, though it sure wouldn't hurt if she'd get that done.  [:0]

That's how most md/phd programs are....around 8-12 spots open per year.  But then again, there's usually only 200 applicants at the most, so it's a 1-in-20 shot on average, a better ratio than a lot of MD programs.  

I'll definately be having you put me in touch with your friend when it comes application time.  (this fall)


Incidentally, it was a tumor removal they screwed up on her.  The attending surgeon let a medical student perform most of the procedure and she wasn't sutured back together correctly, causing the abdominal muscle to not close up properly.  She's had 2 hernia surgerys and finally a mesh screen put in to correct it.  The surgeon also put on her medical records that they removed an ovary but told her that "we really didn't, we just said we did" so she really has no idea if she has 1 or 2 of them.  It's really just this guy in particular she has the problem with, not the clinic in general.  



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[MayoFlyFarmer]

Isn't it a bummer (speaking about medicine in general) that every doctor has to have a first?  I sit next to a resident in the class i've been taking this month, and quite frankly after talking to him at length... I never want to go to the doctor again (unless its you Chris, or others)!

That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!

[MayoFlyFarmer]

by the way, I noticed that U of MN isn't on your list you gave before of schools you're looking at.  any reason??  I think when i go back to grad school if I don't stay here, I'll probably go there.  I know they have a phd/md program because they used to send me info about it all the time

That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!

[Ylide (OP)]

I looked at U of MN...I'm not sure if I could live in Minneapolis.  I live in a fairly large city now and the only other big cities I'd consider moving to are ones that don't have snow.  (portland, albuquerque)  Optimally, I'd like to live in a smaller city again.  Big city life is getting to me.

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[MayoFlyFarmer]

thats cool.  thats actually why I came to work here vs. in AMinneapolis I'm not a big city person either

That's no moon.... its a GRAPEFRUIT!!!!

[dalya]

Well, most of the other grad students in my lab were path students and I took a bunch of path department courses.  I can get you in touch with some of the former path students that have graduated if you want.  At least when I was there, it didn't have a great reputation for retaining students (immunology didn't either -I dropped out after my 2nd year).  But you can pretty much choose whatever lab you want to go into (especially if you are not entering via any specific program).

The time has flown by since I left.  I didn't realize how long (4 yrs), so probably a lot of things have changed.  Specifically you need to find out how the plans are coming along for the move to Fitzsimmons (part or all of the graduate school was moving to an old airforce base about 6 miles (?) from the hospital.  Not all the departments were moving and in any case different departments would be moving in different years.  Naturally this will cause intense academic and logistical mayhem and loss of a lot of interactivity between departments.  It might also make life difficult for you as an MD student if you have to run back and forth between the hospial and fizsimmons several times a day.  To be quite honest, you would never be able to do it even if they have some shuttle bus running regularly.  The immunology department had agreed to be based up at National Jewish though which is just 5 blocks from the hospital.  I think that meant they weren't going to move the immunology faculty that was based at the hospital and the diabetes center.

I think I got an absolutely fantastic education there.  A lot of the faculty can be flaky and obsessed with their own egos and politicizing everything.  That's the way it is pretty much everywhere.  I think it is definitely better than a lot of the snooty big name universities.  Most of my faculty actually did care about students.  Though most of the time they had to be reminded we were not superhuman.  They lost quite a lot of students around the time that I was there and I think they have become a lot more student oriented since then from what I understand.

[Ylide (OP)]

The Fitzsimmons move is supposedly going to be completed by 2007, 2 years into my medical school training and before I start my PhD work, so hopefully I won't be doing a whole lot of shipping back and forth.  The new campus is REALLY nice, I was there a couple months back for a doctor's appt and I must say I was impressed.  It sure is a long drive from where I live, though.  (couple miles south of the main campus)

I wouldn't mind talking to some of the former path students...I'm getting into an undergrad research program there this summer to see how I like the path department, and some advice on which lab to pick (i.e. who is easy to work with and eager to help new students) would be fantastic.  

Feel free to pass along my email address to them or send me theirs, whichever is easier for you.  Thanks!





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[Ylide (OP)]

I just got my MCAT scores.  35!  Whoohoo, I'm goin to med school  =P

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[tweener]

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[Ylide (OP)]

Thanks John!

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