Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Skin tone looks much healthier. Veins look less prominent to me, especially on the calf. Though could be due to tan. On the other hand the fact that you have a tan means you are more confident :)

More photographs from different angle might be helpful.

The veins being invisible on waking is very important as it confirms the efficacy of Inclined Therapy. The longer the veins remain normal in appearance the more elasticity they will recover over time and the more resistant to pressure changes they will become over time.

Be patient Daryl and please keep a journal as your observations with humidity not only fit with the varicose vein therapy and understanding but add weight to my theory for gravity assisted circulation.

Thank you for providing the new photographs and your observations.

Andrew


 
« Last Edit: 02/07/2009 11:39:04 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Denise

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Hi Andrew

I found your website when looking for information on Varicose Veins and being interested in alternative therapies, I was hooked.

I recently went to my GP because I had noticed some bumps on the inside of my right ankle and a vein which contracts and relaxes with my left calf muscle.  I've never been a partciularly large person and have always been fit and exercised well but over the past year I lost 1 stone in weight due to taking up running.

Anyway, my GP was totally dismissive and told me that I was getting old (I'm 38) and they were varicose veins.  He said I could get cosmetic surgery done on them but not under the NHS because they aren't causing me any problems.

I was really upset by his attitude and although the veins aren't that noticeable and I'm not 100% sure they are varicose, I decided to try your IBT.  My husband used bricks to raise the bed to the recommended incline and we have been sleeping like this for a week now. 

My husband doesn't get up in the night to go to the toilet like he usually does, he doesn't snore as much and we both feel really refreshed when we wake up.

With regard to my veins, they are flat when I wake in the morning but become raised when I start moving about.  However, my husband is convinced that the vein on my left calf is starting to flatten slightly. 

I have noticed over the past couple of days that by mid afternoon, the bumps on my ankle and the vein on my calf seem to lessen almost completely and stay that way for the rest of the evening. 

Am I being a bit optimistic that they will disappear completely and that this is a good sign?

Regards.

Denise Bunce

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Offline Denise

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Thanks for the IT instructions Andrew.  As you can probably tell, I'm a bit of a technophobe. [:)]  I've managed to paste my original message to you on here so there's a start!

I've read through the entire thread from Daryl, Karen, Alun, etc and it's all very interesting.

I would like to take part in your study if you want me to.  Next hurdle will be downloading pics on here! [;)]

I have now been sleeping on an inclined bed for 10 nights.

I have a prominent/varicose vein on my left calf over the muscle.  It isn't very big and I noticed it in a lift mirror whilst on holiday about last September.  That's not to say it wasn't there before but I don't tend to go round looking at the back of my legs for fear of walking into something!

I also have some flesh coloured bumps on the inside of my right leg down near my ankle with no visible vein beneath.

I'm 38, I'm very slim (size 6/8, 5' 6" tall) and I do masses of fast walking, running, cycling and horse riding so I'm pretty fit.

Anyway, these lumpy veiny things are knocking my self confidence a bit even though they aren't that noticeable and finding this study has been quite exciting especially hearing about and seeing photos of shrinking veins!

We have a memory foam mattress and my other half has put 2 bricks under the head end one brick under the middle section so we have the right incline.

My hubby is a light sleeper/insomniac.  Since inclining the bed, he has been sleeping like a proverbial log.  Also, he tends to get up most nights to go to the loo and this has stopped.  The best thing is that the snoring has almost stopped completely too so he is a convert already.

As for me, I'm Mrs Impatient and keep getting told off for expecting immediate results with this therapy.  I sleep well but am waking up feeling very refreshed.  My ankle lumps are always well up in the morning when I get up and stay that way until about 4pm when they start to subside a little and virtually disappear towards the end of the day.  The calf vein does the same.  I'm not sure whether this is down to IBT as I never studied them so closely before this!

When I am relaxed, my calf vein virtually disappears.  It is only prominent when I am moving about and it contracts and relaxes with each step.  I'm not sure it is varicose but it does appear to be slightly smaller than it was and ever so slightly flatter.

The little lumpy bits seem to ache since I started IBT.  They don't hurt at all to touch and it might even be something to do with my running as that does make my legs ache from time to time.

My hubby is working away but is home tonight so I will get him to do his David Bailey impersonation and get some photos so you can all laugh at my sparrow legs :)

A couple of questions for you old hands at IBT;

1.  If you go on holiday and sleep flat for a few nights, will the veins come back?

2.  Do the raised areas flatten and disappear completely over time?

Oh well, enough rambling.  I have 7 guinea pigs to muck out in between rain showers!

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Denise

Glad you found us and welcome to Nakedscientists.

Thank you for adding your observations to this thread. The more people that find us the more the argument for inclining the bed the opposite way around to what the medical profession are currently recommending will “eventually” be realised.

It takes around 4 weeks for the veins to begin to respond to the pressure / tension changes in the venous return blood. Why it takes 4 weeks I have no idea, it is based upon many people who have already used this technique.

To post pictures effectively open a photobucket account or flicker account and upload your photographs to it. Then copy the link it generates for message boards into your post, select preview and if all is ok hit the post button.

Using this method will give better resolution than uploading to the forum.

The link should look like this 

Not sure about the fleshy coloured bumps, maybe someone on the forum can help you with this.

Great that your hubby is open minded too and willing to give this a go. And the snoring stopping will bring about other bonuses no doubt.

When people go on Holliday they often take some strong plastic bed risers with them, these can be purchased from a chemist or even online on ebay and they fit inside each other so don’t take up too much room.

Sleeping flat for a week may well make the veins swell again but over time the veins will become less able to stretch and should resist pressure changes from sleeping flat occasionally.

Andrew

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Offline geordiejulie

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Hi Andrew

Just a quick note.

In November of last year I noticed some spotting in front of my eyes. Being a regular user of glasses since the age of about 12 I went to my optician and had a thorough eye examination and drops put in my eyes so the optician could check my eye health. The optician reported the backs of my eyes as healthy with a slight change of prescription. The spotting he put down to a general degeneration of pieces of gel detaching themselves from the back of the eye. This is still apparent from time to time.
 
What has amazed me today though is that I found my prescription from last November and also the one I had from the year previous to this(2007)
There are improvements to the sight in both eyes! This is down in black and white and quite frankly I'm stunned. I mean when the optician said there were changes I naturally presumed he meant worse, not better!
 

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Alun Hi Julie

Great to hear from you both again.

Your pictures viewed larger in this link: http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn365/alun006/POINT-1-IBT.jpg Are amazing, phenomenal improvements in your varicose veins. The skin colour on your legs is far healthier and indicates you could be wearing shorts outdoors. I remember you saying you have done so while visiting the beach.

And let’s not forget that you no longer need to wear those dreadful compressing stockings. I saw a guy down in Brixham who had a pair on only yesterday as we drove through. Definitely not good for ones self esteem.

The large varicose vein on the back of your leg “calf muscle area” has not been mentioned, could we have an updated photograph of it please?

Looking forward very much to when your son starts the inclined therapy too.

The pain that has been constantly present since birth in you knee and now only present occasionally is another pointer to what is happening to the nervous system and adds credence to my extensive work helping people with neurological conditions.

Neuropathic pain does not respond well to medication.
Multiple sclerosis:
Pain in particular often becomes more intense when people sleep flat. I suspect this is pressure related. Yet people with ms that use the Inclined Bed method find that retiring to bed provides a much-welcomed relief from pain.

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Andrew

Just a quick note.

In November of last year I noticed some spotting in front of my eyes. Being a regular user of glasses since the age of about 12 I went to my optician and had a thorough eye examination and drops put in my eyes so the optician could check my eye health. The optician reported the backs of my eyes as healthy with a slight change of prescription. The spotting he put down to a general degeneration of pieces of gel detaching themselves from the back of the eye. This is still apparent from time to time.
 
What has amazed me today though is that I found my prescription from last November and also the one I had from the year previous to this(2007)
There are improvements to the sight in both eyes! This is down in black and white and quite frankly I'm stunned. I mean when the optician said there were changes I naturally presumed he meant worse, not better!
 

Julie, thank you so much for posting these observations. Many such reports have been provided from people using Inclined Therapy over the years. One would think that the RNIB charity would welcome such a practical simple application for assisting someone with visual impairment, yet they failed miserably to respond when two ladies unrelated and both registered as severely visually impaired with supposedly irreversible optic nerve damage both tilted their beds around the same time during a pilot study for people with ms. Both ophthalmologists wrote to me within a month of each other asking the same question.  “How can two blocks of wood under a persons bed restore a persons sight?” This is exactly what happened to two totally unrelated people in two different towns over the same time scale.

One would have believed at the time that any charity that collects money for the blind would be compelled to investigate such claims. Wrong, that familiar brick wall appears in so many places. Guess they care more about their £millions than finding out if tilting a bed could help a person see again.

I will post the letters from the RNIB and my letters for all to see when I have time.

Thanks again Julie

All the best

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline alun006

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Hi Andrew

Actually, interesting enough.

I have not had shorts on when going outside.

I am sure that this will happen more and more in time.

But does bring up the question, that the colour is not down to the sun.

Just wanted you to know this.........

Thanks alun

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

I found out about you through your posts on EarthClinic and your link to YouTube. I read all nine pages on this site along with YouTube information.

Last night my husband and I started sleeping on about a 61/2” incline on an 80” long mattress (Queen Size). My main reason is to see if it removes the excess fluid in my ankles. The secondary reason is to see if it will eventually eliminate the pain in my thighs I get from pressure sitting or laying down too long. The pain is a new problem in the past two years. I have self-diagnosed myself as having primary lipeodema (as doctors ignore the problem). Here is where I got my information http://www.lymphoedema.org/lsn/lsn070.htm  This may also help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipedema  I am not sure if the bed will help with that, maybe you can advise so I don’t have false hopes. I will still incline for the ankles regardless.

I slept well the first night on the incline. I did not have any problems slipping down the bed which I expected. I did not feel any different when I woke up this morning. I took photographs yesterday so I will check-out how to open a Flickr account and upload them. When I see a difference I will take more photos and submit them to this site.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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More reports from people using Inclined Therapy: http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/incline-bed-therapy.html   

Hi Maureen

Thanks for joining the study. Your condition should respond well based upon others with lymphoedema, admittedly not lipoedema but the principles behind the inclined bed should initiate an increase in urination initially over 4 weeks. Fingers crossed that this will be the case as you are the first person with lipoedema to test this.

Many times I have observed people with acute oedema problems and some times I have mentioned that it would be a good idea to research Inclined Therapy on the Internet to them without saying anything about myself or how it works in the hope that some of these people will find their way to trying this simple therapy.

It causes me grave concern that for the sake of setting up a controlled study and confirming the efficacy once and for all of this common sense approach to many medical conditions, the majority of the medical and nursing profession would rather maintain their ignorance indefinitely. How long will it take for this paradigm to become mainstream and help people with medical conditions that are never going to respond to the accepted models of treatment?

Perhaps only the people ignoring this can give us an answer.

Nevertheless, we must wait and see what happens now that you have tilted your bed.
If you could ask your doctor to take an interest in what you are doing he / she might be able to help monitor your condition more closely and record what happens or at least give us a comment in a few months time.

Initially there may be a shift of fluids down towards the ankles and some increase in swelling as the salty fluids migrate towards the lower limbs, but this should prove temporary while the lymphatic system begins to deal with the excess fluid more efficiently and moves it back into the blood stream where the kidneys will filter it and excrete it into the urine, hence the need to monitor urine output.

Sincerely

Andrew
« Last Edit: 10/08/2009 10:11:52 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Ely

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Hello Andrew! 

While doing research on remedies for varicose veins, I came across your study.  I am intrigued.  I convinced my husband to put bricks under the head of our bed to incline it.  It is currently up 5".  I am 35 years old with three children (ages 10, 8 and 10 months) and I've had varicose veins for about 15 years.  I've already had surgery (VNUS closure procedure)about 3 years ago and I've experienced new varicosities since then.  I'm interested in your non-surgical approach.  I am hoping I see an improvement.  They are so unsightly and they've been aching as of late.  I had my hubby take a pic of the worst offender that extends from the top of my inner left thigh down to my knee.  After he took the picture, we slept inclined for the first time last night. My husband said he kept slipping down!  LOL!  I didn't experience that problem.  It will take some getting used to sleeping like that, but it's worth a try.  I've got nothing to lose, right?  I will keep you informed of how it goes and if I notice any benefits.  I plan on giving it at least 4 weeks and will post pictures of my leg before and after.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: 12/08/2009 15:54:14 by Ely »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Ely

Thank you for joining us and for sharing your observations and experiences using Inclined Therapy.

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Denise

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I've now been sleeping inclined for 22 nights.  The vein on my calf is flat when I wake in the morning so much so that you can't really even see the vein which looks faint and thin.  As soon as I stand up, the vein bulges but instead of it taking until late afternoon to flatten, it seems to flatten again at about 8am and stays that way all day with possibly a small area of very slight bulge (much less than before) when I am exercising and it is under pressure.

On Monday evening, it was flat and I went for a hike.  It took a lot longer of me walking fast and hard on uneven ground with hills in the heat before it started to bulge as before but then when I have cooled down it goes flat again.

I'm hoping eventually that I will wake with it flat and it will stay that way when  I get up and start moving around in the morning. 

Does this sound like IBT is working?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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I've now been sleeping inclined for 22 nights.  The vein on my calf is flat when I wake in the morning so much so that you can't really even see the vein which looks faint and thin.  As soon as I stand up, the vein bulges but instead of it taking until late afternoon to flatten, it seems to flatten again at about 8am and stays that way all day with possibly a small area of very slight bulge (much less than before) when I am exercising and it is under pressure.

On Monday evening, it was flat and I went for a hike.  It took a lot longer of me walking fast and hard on uneven ground with hills in the heat before it started to bulge as before but then when I have cooled down it goes flat again.

I'm hoping eventually that I will wake with it flat and it will stay that way when  I get up and start moving around in the morning. 

Does this sound like IBT is working?
Indeed it does Denise.

Thank you for updating your progress so far.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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 Rainbowdaby said...
VERY WELL DONE Andrew!

I have been using his Inclined bed therapy for the last NINE years and I would never go back to sleeping on a flat bed. When I left the oil and gas industry in Aberdeen I had major problems in my spine, sciatica varicous viens, circulating problems etc. etc. I was taking a bucket full of pain killers. That was EIGHT years ago.

Now at 72 years young. I have not taken any drugs (of any description) in the last SEVEN years. I genuinly feel I have taken total responsiblity of my health. No need to buy expensive health insurance. You have saved me a lot of money and given me a lot of long term happiness Andrew.

I am extremely grateful to you. Keep up the good work!

8:17 AM


A reply from my blog.

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Offline carreerslut

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Not sure what this is all about, too tired to read it all, but inclining the bed is NOT a permanent solution to varicose veins.  Elevating the legs above the heart will of course make the journey of blood to the legs more difficult, and the veins will shrink.  Result.  Then what?  Either you leave the legs permanently raised, lose the veins, but also lose the blood supply, leading to excrutiating pain and loss of oxygenation to surrounding tissue ultimately, such that the limb deteriorates and deteriorates until gangrene sets in.... Or you do the obvious thing and put it down again.  Leg saved, varicose veins back. 

Your legs need a blood supply to function.  The weak valves in the  veins are a problem, but cutting off the blood supply to the whole leg is like using a hammer to crack a nut.  The more common approach is to cut off the blood supply to one or two of the most troublesome veins, as long as the blood has somewhere else to go.  Not a great solution, and ultimately if you have a genetic tendency to weak and bulging veins not a permanent one, but is the tradditional method.

Best home remedies?  Keep feet elevated for SHORT periods, definitely not overnight.  Hours of blood supply being cut off is not good.  They used to recommend raising the base of the mattress.  Now it is seen to only make the pain worse as the blood can't reach the feet - particularly if there is PAD.  Do not squash your veins eg. by sitting with legs crossed.  Keep off your feet i.e. don't stand excessively, which causes blood to pool in the legs.  Get your IGm blood levels checked for 'stickiness' - may be you need to take a blood thinner.  Watch out for clots in the veins which cause localised pain, swelling and fever - known as phlebitis.  Or live in outer space where there is not the gravity we have here. 

Please though let your legs have their share of blood, they deserve it as much as the rest of you.

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Offline alun006

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Carreerslut

Thankyou for cheering me up this afternoon.

You may find it helpful to actually read the threads including the description of INCLINED NOT ELEVIATED THERAPY.


I have nothing else to say.....

Over to you Andrew K Fletcher

Thankyou alun






Not sure what this is all about, too tired to read it all, but inclining the bed is NOT a permanent solution to varicose veins.  Elevating the legs above the heart will of course make the journey of blood to the legs more difficult, and the veins will shrink.  Result.  Then what?  Either you leave the legs permanently raised, lose the veins, but also lose the blood supply, leading to excrutiating pain and loss of oxygenation to surrounding tissue ultimately, such that the limb deteriorates and deteriorates until gangrene sets in.... Or you do the obvious thing and put it down again.  Leg saved, varicose veins back. 

Your legs need a blood supply to function.  The weak valves in the  veins are a problem, but cutting off the blood supply to the whole leg is like using a hammer to crack a nut.  The more common approach is to cut off the blood supply to one or two of the most troublesome veins, as long as the blood has somewhere else to go.  Not a great solution, and ultimately if you have a genetic tendency to weak and bulging veins not a permanent one, but is the tradditional method.

Best home remedies?  Keep feet elevated for SHORT periods, definitely not overnight.  Hours of blood supply being cut off is not good.  They used to recommend raising the base of the mattress.  Now it is seen to only make the pain worse as the blood can't reach the feet - particularly if there is PAD.  Do not squash your veins eg. by sitting with legs crossed.  Keep off your feet i.e. don't stand excessively, which causes blood to pool in the legs.  Get your IGm blood levels checked for 'stickiness' - may be you need to take a blood thinner.  Watch out for clots in the veins which cause localised pain, swelling and fever - known as phlebitis.  Or live in outer space where there is not the gravity we have here. 

Please though let your legs have their share of blood, they deserve it as much as the rest of you.

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Offline Denise

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I'm with you, Alun.  What was that all about elevating the legs and your legs dropping off? :)  We aren't elevating the legs; we are LOWERING them hence INCLINED BED THERAPY and not ELEVATED BED THERAPY!!!!

Anyway, I've been sleeping INCLINED for 4 weeks tomorrow and when I went running tonight according to my hubby who was cycling along behind me, my calf vein was down the whole time until I got home and stopped running when it bulged again.  Some days it stays up longer than others and I have noticed it is worse in really warm weather.  It does stay flat for long periods of time.  It is always flat when I wake in bed in the morning but as soon as I get up it bulges for about an hour or so before lying flat.  Did you find that too?  Will it ultimately lie flat when I get up and stay flat all the time?

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

I have slept on the bed for 9 nights so far. I am very happy to say that I do see a slight reduction in fluid in my ankles. It is not something that others would notice, but I do. The fluid I am referring to is actually accumulated from beside the ankle bone on the inside of my legs down to almost the bottom (heel) of my feet. My ankles are more puffy than fluid like although I am pretty sure it is fluid also. I took “After” photographs today although there is not really anything to see….so far! I took a very short video with my digital camera to try and show the fluid as it does not show up too well in photographs. The video is not very clear but you will see the fluid that I move around with my finger.

The temperature has been around 30 degrees Celsius and 62 % humidity for the past week or so. I am mentioning this because you commented on this to Alun in a previous post. It seems to have a bearing on varicose veins; I am not sure if it affects fluid?

I have not been to a doctor for many years so I can not be monitored. No doctor is interested in this problem as they just ignore it because they do not know anything about it. I have been to Naturopathic Doctors over time and I do take care of my health. I will eventually go to a regular doctor someday. I have gone to the walk-in clinics for massage and compression stocking prescriptions only.

I am having problems registering an account with Yahoo so I can register with Flickr. I am hoping the website is having problems and I can get through tomorrow. I should have two accounts with them by now.

I decided to post this while waiting for the photos to be uploaded so you know what is happening.

Maureen


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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

I created my third account with Yahoo today and it finally took! So I have set-up an account with Flickr and uploaded photos and video. I redid the bad video I took yesterday in better lighting and I was not holding the camera as I was taping myself so it was not too close which made for better video.

I am now trying to figure out how to upload to this site even though you will not see a difference yet, just getting ready for the future  [:)]

If nothing turns up, you will know I had a problem. I will keep trying.

Maureen

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Carreerslut,

You have addressed Inclined therapy as a person would reading from the literature rather than from the thread. Inclined Therapy is the opposite way around to what you have suggested and I would agree that serious complications can follow prolonged head down tilt. in fact, the first post addresses this and referes to NASA paying youngsters handsmoely for remaining on a bed sloping head down.

If you find time, the thread does contain some interesting observations from people sleeping head up rather than head down.

Andrew
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Anyway, I've been sleeping INCLINED for 4 weeks tomorrow and when I went running tonight according to my hubby who was cycling along behind me, my calf vein was down the whole time until I got home and stopped running when it bulged again.  Some days it stays up longer than others and I have noticed it is worse in really warm weather.  It does stay flat for long periods of time.  It is always flat when I wake in bed in the morning but as soon as I get up it bulges for about an hour or so before lying flat.  Did you find that too?  Will it ultimately lie flat when I get up and stay flat all the time?

Hopefully Denise your veins will slowly but surely remain flat. If you check out my wifes vein picture you can see the effect of many years of Inclined Therapy on the Varicose vein, although the vein became flat and ceased to ache within 4 weeks it continued to improve. Although visible it is obvious the vein no longer bulges.

Thanks for the update
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Andrew,

I created my third account with Yahoo today and it finally took! So I have set-up an account with Flickr and uploaded photos and video. I redid the bad video I took yesterday in better lighting and I was not holding the camera as I was taping myself so it was not too close which made for better video.

I am now trying to figure out how to upload to this site even though you will not see a difference yet, just getting ready for the future  [:)]

If nothing turns up, you will know I had a problem. I will keep trying.

Maureen


Thanks Maureen.

If you click the preview tab below in between post and spell check it opens up the tools to add photographs and video

The best way to show a video is to upload it to Youtube and copy the link to it into your post, this way people can view it. Pictures is a little easier. You grab the direct link from Flicker or Photobucket etc and paste it into the post  between these two boxes and providing your link is clean and does not already contain these boxes it should work fine. You can check your post in preview mode.

This will be a great help for everyone, thank you.

Andrew

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew, Daryl, Alun006 and anyone that can help me with uploading photos!

I have spent days on Flickr and it seems that to view a photo the person has to have a Yahoo account. Then I opened up an account with Photobucket. I saw Andrew's and Alun006's photos there. It seems that when I invite someone to see a photo, the whole album is shown. I then created a separate album with two photos and it looks like a link to Photobucket is always shown. When you guys upload a photo, that is all we see. That is how I want to do it. Can anyone help me? I am ready to forget about the photos. I wonder if this is the reason we have not seen Denise's photos yet?

Maureen

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Offline Denise

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Hi Maureen

I'm glad I'm not the only one!  I created a Photobucket account but can't get the photos into this thread!  I tried for ages then gave up :(

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Offline alun006

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Hi Denise & Maureen

OPTION 1

I can add the pictures for you with your names at the top on one of my thread if that will help.

Just email me the photos with the information direct.

Option 2

Or if you have msn, you can add me and we can go through the process online together.

alun006

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Using the Image link from a photobucket account to show pictures in your post:

Choose the code that has the [ img ][ /img ] boxes either side from photobucket in the drop down box, click on this link titled img code in photobucket highlite it and right click while on the image code / link and click copy. Go to your post and right click in the window that contains your text, click paste. Job done :)
« Last Edit: 26/08/2009 09:05:09 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

I followed your instructions and also varied them because I could not get it to work! However, my husband told me how it works in an e-mail is different than in a post to a website. So I tried what you said and it worked!

Denise, you were probably trying to send your photos in an e-mail to test it like I was and had the same problems.

Alun006, Thank you for offering to help me.

Here are two photos of my ankles. There is not much difference in the photos yet but I can see the difference. When a photo shows a significant difference, I will post again.





V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).




V Shape of fluid goes down past ankle bone to almost bottom of heel (both feet).


Maureen


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Congrats on your new found IT skills Maureen. Great job of the photographs by your husband :)

We could do with a system like the Kings shilling in a pint glass to pressgang a few more people into our study, so if you can think of anyone with varicose veins, leg ulcer, oedema and an open mind, please mention this study to them and ask them to consider joining us.

Andrew

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

 [?]


Professor Zamboni et al and Dr Franz Shelling are pioneers working on abnormal jugular and cerebrospinal veins that are swollen or varicose. Zamboni's paper on chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency in 100% of patients with multiple sclerosis is attracting a great deal of attention with regards to a stent surgical approach to alter the blockage and improve circulation which is thought to be causing a reflux or back flow of blood into the brain that is responsible for the plaques found in ms.

Inclined Therapy has already been shown to positively affect the bodily functions in several neurological conditions, including ms. Over a minimum of 4 months avoiding sleeping on a flat bed. Based on 15 years of research and independent reports from people trying I.T. it appears that the circulation improves in many cases without the need for surgery, which is the point being made in this thread about varicose veins and oedema no requiring surgery, which incidentally is destined to require more surgery over the years.

So the track record for sleeping inclined as opposed to sleeping flat is looking pretty conclusive. http://www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6755-days0-orderasc-120.html

That said, experimenting with posture to target individual veins has been done for many years raising the legs and upper torso, bending the body in the middle as is the case with most electrically adjustable beds.

The problem with this approach is that the spine is continually under compression and so is the soft tissue under the pelvis, increasing the risk of pressure sores and at best only providing temporary relief from varicose veins and oedema.

I have mentioned before that an exception to the generally beneficial relief found from I.T. is when a person has a collapsed vein, generally injury related the partially already closed vein could close further when the bed is inclined. Whether this would affect your particular problem either way can only be based upon your careful monitoring of the vein/veins in question over time to see what the outcome maybe.

Sleeping prone or supine or indeed on either side should only marginally alter the situation either way on an inclined bed, but could significantly alter the swelling situation while on a flat bed.

I hope I have understood your question and have offered some useful advice.

Andrew
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Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website,  I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

       /\ head
feet /         

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

Got it now, I think. Your posture suggestion is equivalent of hanging your legs over the edge of a bed while lowering the angle of the bed so you are tilted back.

According to the on gravity assisted circulation tracing the flow of solutes through the arteries in relation to posture and the location of the kidneys is very important in order to avoid salt build up and possible overload in the blood and lymphatic systems.

My wife and I experimented with head down posture and found that salts did not arrive in the urine in the same quantity as sleeping on an incline, in fact the urine produced over several days of sleeping head down at five degrees was near water density, while the urine produced on an inclined bed was much denser than urine produced sleeping horizontal or five degree head down, or that produced during normal daily activity, indicating that a detoxification of the whole body was taking place. With this in mind, replacing some of the excreted potassium salts might be prudent over many years.

People taking prescription drugs have found that they are either more effective sleeping inclined or their uptake is improved on an incline or that their body does not require quite as much as before the bed was tilted. This is mirrored by astronauts in micro-gravity (orbiting the Earth) where the drug dose requires increasing. Prolonged head down bed rest and prolonged flat bedrest are thought to mirror the detrimental effects of space travel and are used to induce many of the age related problems we will al eventually face, including muscular atrophy, osteporosis, arythmia, poor circulation, visual degeneration, etc etc.

In fact my wife and I both ended up with chronic diarrhoea as a result of head down tilt. This posture has also been used for obesity so is understood by the medical profession. I think The actor Marlon Brando was sleeping this way in order to lose weight.

With this in mind, I would be reluctant to sleep that way again for any length of time given the nausea, headache, diarrhoea and balance problems we experienced testing it.

If you do decide to go for it please let us know as I would be very interested to learn what happens.

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Thanks for your informative comments. Will simply raise the head end of my bed to the suggested incline, in the hope, that this will let me enjoy my bedroom again. I did some reading on what I found on this site on ITB an MS, not for myself, but mostly for my doctor, as we live in a region evidencing an unusually high concentration of MS sufferers, affecting also some members of my extended family.

A lifelong wearer of high heeled shoes, is there anyone else, who feels uncomfortable on flat feet? My heels go on the moment I step out of bed (or chair for the time being). A pair of cowhide sling back clunkers is my favourite at this time. 3 1/2" or 9 1/2 cm high, very chunky, solid heels.

My doctor will recommend flat shoes of course. Nevertheless, I will have to unnake myself a bit and finally discuss this issue with him, to see what else can be done. At the medical clinic where I go, we some pretty progressive practitioners of medicine.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,

Dagmar.

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Hi Andrew:

It's a go. Will start experimenting with a suitable structure tonight, plus perhaps get some foam padding for my mattress. They advertise memory foam a lot here. Will see. If it can be arranged, my doc has agreed to take the before and after pictures. I just felt that this would provide more credibility than pictures taken by a medically unscientific, unnaked sufferer. Be patient, four weeks you all say.

Thanks again. Best,


Dagmar.

P.S. Although I asked my doctor specifically to take a good look at my feet while standing barefoot on the floor, high heels were never mentioned. Seems they are a 'no issue'.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Dagmar and a big thankyou for joining our little experiment with posture for varicose veins and oedema.

Having the doctor take the photographs is going to prove very interesting. Hopefully your doctor will be able to offer a comment in a few weeks time.

The heels you mention, I have also thought about how and why people manage to walk in these. One would think that the discomfort would prove far too uncomfortable. But there might just be some additional boost to the circulation going on that affords prolonged use of them. This might also be why returning back to flat shoes becomes alien to someone using high heels.

We use a memory foam mattress, some people compain they they become too warm on a foam mattress but this does not appear to be the case on an inclined bed, although a friend of mine who has taken the angle to an extream did find she became too warm and she returned back to a coil sprung mattress. Her conditions is psoriasis btw, which probably affects the natural cooling of the skin. That said she is completely clear most of the time since tilting the bed and only shows 3 smal patches on elblows and name of back when she has some return of P. This is in direct contrast to her skin before tilting the bed, where she had considerable problems accompanied by joint problems due to the type of psoriasis she has.

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Dagmar,

I wore 3 1/2" high heels for over 35 years. I wore them all day at work but changed to flats when I got home. I always had a pull type feeling in my calves (as if there were a guy wire pulling tight in my calf muscles) and could not bend over on my hunkers even if you paid me. It did not stop me walking a lot, cycling, rebounding etc. Just any kind of stretching was impossible for me. Finally I went to a Massage Therapist that did a very slight sideway pull back and forth on my calves and although it felt like nothing was being done it worked amazingly well for me. I went for many treatments after that to keep flexible then stopped. That was over 6 years ago and I still have no problem with it. So it may be worth it for you to try massage. 

Maureen
« Last Edit: 29/08/2009 16:36:44 by Maureen »

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Foam should not cause me any problems then, a I am always on the cold side. I am almost totally marblized with the Raynaud's blue tinge, which instantly disappears when lying down. My ankles are in very good shape, my legs, although not lacking in prominent veins, are very muscular, tops of my feet are covered with distended veins, which will become barely visible when in my shoes and wearing my other standby, also a lifelong habit, a regular pair of nylons, only very lightly constrictive. I do pay attention to waistbands with these, as some manufacturers make their 'one size fits all' waistbands even too tight for me. I am a very small person, 5'4", far removed from any weight problems, and have always avoided tight clothing.

When first looking at your website, your claim that varicose veins can revert, did not seem outlandish at all to me. I have one instance on my body, where this occurred, but I do not know how. All that is left, is one tiny bluish spot, size of the letter 'o', and barely visible. Original length about an 1 1/2", located directly under my navel. The reason for conducting my most recent search on reversal, was exactly, to find the answer to my own observations. After all, there had to be other people who have experienced reversal, even though not working on it deliberately. What I found instead, is deliberation, quite an improvement over unintentional. I am not complaining.


Thanks, again. Best,

Dagmar.






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For Maureen: Thanks for your input. My heels go on the morning, and only come off when about to lie down. No muscles pulling, even when doing hands on the floor exercises with knees straight, feet about 1 1/2' apart.

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Offline freeone

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Hi Andrew , I was diagnosed about eleven years ago with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis .I decided three days ago to try the inclined bed therapy. First couple of days i felt the old usual pins and needles aches pins etc. But today when i awoke  i could hardly stand with the pain in my lower back .I was taken aback because as i walked down stairs i felt like what i can describe only as electric shocks go up and down my spine followed by big waves i also felt something shift . I have never felt this clear for many a year.I am on LDN and although it has helped me in other ways i can only put this shift and clear headiness down to your inclined bed therapy . I will continue to sleep this way and i will keep a record of any changes that occurs and I truly want to Thankyou for posting your video and your inclined bed therapy idea on youtube. Hope I have posted this in correct area.
Many Thanks
Vivienne

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Vivienne

Great to hear from you.

This thread is the varicose veins and oedema study but I am sure no one will mind you posting about your own experience using Inclined Therapy here.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.50 this is the thread where you will find more information of use to you.

If you could also post your observatons here: http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90

It would be a great help as this is an MS forum and a friendly place like the NS forum.

The shooting pains is unusual to begin after a few days and is indicative that you may well experience significant recovery in the short term. I must warn you though pain is usually a primary indication of an imminent gain and pain can usually become intense as nerve pathways open up. But if you think about it for a while it makes sense as a connection with the brain from an area that was devoid of sensation allbeit a discomfort does lend itself to thinking that some damage must have been repaired for this to happen.

The first two weeks can be a bit of a rolercoaster ride but after this things settle down a bit in RR ms.

Andrew

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Alun, WOW what a difference.

And you no longer wear compression stockings that's a double WOW. Hope some vascular surgeons are paying attention here. Thank you :)
« Last Edit: 01/09/2009 10:40:07 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline freeone

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oops sorry for posting in wrong forum [:I]..thanks for the links...

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Someone recently mentioned 'Lifestyle" on this Forum; cannot find the entry at the moment. Below a link to something that can be managed without great effort:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#cleave

The Saccharine Disease, BRISTOL, JOHN WRIGHT & SONS LIMITED 1974
Chapter IV Varicose Veins, Deep Venous Thrombosis, Varicocele, and Haemorrhoids; This author offers a highly plausible theory on causation and on how to arrest further development, but no suggestions with respect to reversal. Simple sugars were discussed along the same lines already by a German team of researchers in the early sixties. Will provide Author, Title and link (if available) as soon as I can locate the information.

Best,


Dagmar

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Offline daryl l

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hey guys,

this is my latest photo update, taken on saturday around 3pm on a fairly cold day

i think you will all agree it is actually starting to look worse rather than better!
now i don't want to be classed as negative but i have obvious concerns about my legs,
as you can see i had shaved my legs about a month ago, this was to get a better idea on whether the veins had improved
i have been on ibt for nearly five months and in that time i have, lost weight,
cycled only for exercize, not strained at all, and consumed plenty of fluid,

andrew can you please advise, i don't want to stop the ibt but after seeing my leg on saturday i am slightly concerned that although this treatment may work for some, it may actually harm others,the bloating on the side of my knee is a real worry?

alun, judging by your photos you seem to have made improvements in the last year, and as you said previously they do sometimes look worse before they look better, do you still have days or times during the day, when the veins look as bad as they did before you started ibt?

many thanks
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 08:39:13 by daryl l »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Daryl thanks for getting back to us and for providing the new photograph.
Here is the first photograph you provided on the 19/05/2009 for comparison.



You say in your post that you had been on IBT for 5 months, How does the VV compare to before the bed was tilted?

There will be times for most people that veins inflate more and become more visible. Temperature, humidity, exercise, posture, tight elasticated stockings, all need to be taken into account.

It may turn out that you are indeed an exception to the reports from others and you are not being negative by stating what you are observing, this is exactly what we need to determine the effects, negatives or positive it is still an observation made by someone using the inclined method.

Personally would stop wearing those ankle socks, I did a long time ago :) Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin needs ditching or at least the elestic stretching until it relaxes more. This could well be the cause of the vein on your foot enlarging. Those particular socks restrict / narrow the vessels at the foot, coupled with the trainers you wear and how tight the laces are you have an effective Tourniquet, not unlike that used by nurses taking blood from veins in the arms and very efficient at causing veins to swell up to make them easier to locate.

From your recent photograph it does look like there is an increase in swelling. Could you take 3 photographs morning afternoon and evening without the equivelent ankle sock tourniquet for comparison and can you remember what time the first photograph was taken and what you were doing prior to it being taken?

Thanks again Daryl, very useful report and photographs.

Andrew

 
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 10:15:19 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline daryl l

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hey andrew thanks for the quick reply,

my comparison from before i started ibt is simply that my vein has swollen more than before, whether it be caused by ibt or simply the fact that is was just a matter of time before it got worse thats what im trying to establish

the only real difference i have noticed in myself is that before the veins would actually hurt(unless i wore a compression stocking) and now they don't! but i do wonder whether this may simply be the fact that it was winter prior to my ibt!

also i must say that neither myself nor my girlfriend has suffered any kind of illness ie colds, hayfever, or the dreaded swine since we started tilting the bed (thats a definate plus point)

as for the trainers, i hear what you are saying there:)they are actually boots im wearing there and the socks pull up a lot higher than my ankles, i must admit i rarely wear those and on saturday the vein was the worst its ever looked, and it did stay up pretty much all day!
so i totally understand your point about the tourniquet scenario, really i suppose it just shows my vein bloating at its very worst!

im not going to stop using ibt, and i will take those three photos as you ask, i just hope the bloody thing doesn't spread any further up or down my leg!!

ps is the whole point of ibt to actually make the veins disappear completely for life, or just look better at certain times during the day?

kind regards again d
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 12:47:32 by daryl l »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Daryl

Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin should be avoided, socks in particular are at the narrowest point in the leg where all of the veins and arteries converge, so this is very important when paying attention to your veins.

Have your blood pressure checked too. This is also important to monitor.

And last of all you mention compression stockings. Have you stopped using these now? If so then some additional swelling initially after you have stopped using them is a logical observation.

You asked if Inclined Therapy only provides temporary relief or permanent relief from varicose veins. I can only relate to my wifes vein since end of 1994. It has never returned to it's walnut size and aching. And Penny a good friend who had a large varicose vein running down the inside of her leg from thigh to ankle who was pictured on the beach showing clearly that the varicose vein has become normal in diameter and visibility since 1995.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.50

So we need to find out if it is your tight socks and boots that caused the vein to swell.

In the morning before you get out of bed, can your wife take a photograph of the vein with you lying down. This should show the vein to be completely flattened as was the case with Alun's.

Andrew
 

« Last Edit: 10/09/2009 11:29:30 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Ely

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Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

Hi Ericka. Maybe if you lower the bed to a 4 inch incline and gradually raised it your husband might accept it better. Only way you could have a tilted bed is to use two single beds pushed together and yours tilted, or make a wedge to place under your side of the mattress.

Bet the veins stopped aching during walks? especially uphill right? :)
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with