Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery

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Offline Denise

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Hello all

I still have to get these pics on here.  Alun, if I could have your email address, I will mail you the pics to upload on my behalf if your kind offer still stands?  I don't have the patience! :)

I have now been sleeping inclined for 7 weeks.  We went to Barcelona for 5 days and took blocks to incline the bed over there so I haven't missed a night! :)

My calf vein is showing definate signs of improvement although I tend to forget this and get despondent when it does bulge from time to time.

When I get up in the morning it no longer bulges straight away and when it does it is much flatter and not so much of it shows.  it only takes a very short while of me being up and about before it disappears.  It seems to completely disappear to the point where it is difficult to even see the vein far more than it stands out.  I love seeing my calf with no bulging vein :)

even  when I go running, it seems to stay flat for the duration of my run, bulges when I stop running and cool down and then disappears again shortly after.  This is consistent with the reaction of the veins in my arms which also bulge when I exercise then lay flat again when I have stopped and cool back down.  I guess this is ho normal veins react.

I feel like my calf vein is starting to act like a normal vein and I am fairly confident that if I continue with IBT that it may eventually not bulge at any time.  Fingers crossed.

I would just say to Ericka that 4 weeks is probably not long enough to notice any significant changes in the appearance of the veins and you really need to persevere.  I can't believe the improvements in Alun's veins.  That calf vein looks fab compare to 14 months ago.

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

It’s been six weeks now that I have been sleeping on an Inclined Bed (IB). So far I can not see any further improvement in the amount of fluid/puffiness in my ankles since I last reported after 9 nights on IB. However, this is what I did notice. I had taken a three week break from jogging on a treadmill and rebounding on a mini-trampoline before sleeping on an IB. Also the same three weeks break from receiving Low Intensity Laser Therapy (L.I.L.T.) on my thighs and ankles for pain relief and fluid reduction. After resuming jogging while on the IB, I felt the usual soreness/stiffness that one gets when starting exercise. It seemed to be too much achiness for such a short break so I do not know if it was only exercise soreness or something due to Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT). I still feel slightly uncomfortable in my calves. I have not resumed L.I.L.T to date as I wanted to see what IBT would do on its own. My pressure pain level has reduced from a 7/10 to a 2/10 in the past week or so which is great!

L.I.L.T. history; In March 2008 I started with a pressure pain level of 6/10. After about 9 treatments the pain level reduced for the first time. I had a total of 20 treatments by October and ended with a pain level of 2/10. My insurance ran out so I waited until June 2009. The pain stayed away for about six months then gradually came back, this time to a level 7 which may likely be due to my tolerance level being lowered, I am not sure.
I have had 8 treatments so far in 2009 then stopped. Most people only need 1-10 L.I.L.T. treatments for injuries because they have a one time injury. Since I seem to collect and store fluid on a daily basis due to some malfunction it only makes sense that without continued treatment the problem will not remain fixed. So now with Inclined Bed Therapy and L.I.L.T. combined which I know both works for me I want to go back for the remainder of treatments I have insurance coverage for in 2009.

I will not book any appointments until I hear from you in case you want me to wait a bit longer. The sooner I go back for treatments the better for me since the weather will get bad later on and cause problems.

Maureen

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Maurine it is not for me to want you to do anything. Take from this therapy what you want and share your experience with us here, this is the only requirement.

I will say that the pain in your legs should become less using I.T based on many people reporting significant reductions in pain.

If you are comfortable with testing the inclined bed and the pain is not increasing then curiosity might get the better of you.

Talk to your doctor about what you are doing as he/she might be interested in what you have to say as the weeks go by.

The discomfort in your calf’s, would it be similar to discomfort from working out or exercising as if the muscles were becoming tighter?

Are you still wearing compression stocking, if so have you considered seeing what happens over 24 hours without wearing any?

Thanks for the update and fingers crossed over the coming weeks.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline snoop40

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hi...i have a question: i'm 19 years old and i have so large veins on my legs...is that healthy?what do you think

thanks[attachment=9980]

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Offline snoop40

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another pic of my legs....[attachment=9982]

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Offline snoop40

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i had those veins sice i was 15[attachment=9984]

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Snoop

Impressive veins, must admit they don't look varicose but more like healthy over inflated veins that one would expect from a person lifting weights etc.

It would be very interesting to learn if Inclined therapy alters the size of your veins.

Has anyone on the forum any knowledge of such veins and can shed some light on the subject for Snoop?

Andrew

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Been having a think about your swollen veins. Could be worth having a doplar examination of the larger veins in the neck to make sure there are no kinks or twists in them that could be causing the pressure in the veins to back up. Look up Professor zamboni and chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency. Not saying that this is a problem. Just another avenue worth exploring.

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline snoop40

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thanks for you advice...however i have big veins all over my body especially on my legs arms and neck[attachment=9996]

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Offline snoop40

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my longest vein...i think its very unatractive [attachment=9998]

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Offline Dustine1017

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Are you really a 19-year old? I think that's all because when you are washing your feet even though you are too tired. Are these veins aching? Then, you must go to the doctor to check it up.

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Offline RD

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Has anyone on the forum any knowledge of such veins and can shed some light on the subject for Snoop?

Defective heart valve or "hole in heart" may be responsible. Definitely see a doctor.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2009 06:03:59 by RD »

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Offline bam

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I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2009 04:55:48 by bam »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.

Thanks for letting us know about your experience using Inclined Therapy Barn, much appreciated.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline bam

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Andrew, I'm glad I found IBT but I have to be honest and admit that I have not been using it.  Its partly laziness but also I feel like I've been getting the benefits in another way .  Around the time that I discovered IBT I also found out how the modern toilet is one of the worst offenders to health known to man.  In a way IBT led me to it while asking in what other ways that I'm not aware of am I misusing/abusing my body.  This led me to look at diet/posture and then I stumbled on this site http://www.naturesplatform.com/health_benefits.html that discusses how the proper way to eliminate is in the squat position and that we are not physically suited to sit while eliminating.  Now it is also interesting to note that the platform that is sold on the site is not a flat platform but the creator has it inclined for people who can't stay balanced due to weight and atrophied leg muscles from lack of use (is there a link with IBT? Vericose Veins?).  Also on this site there is a small reference to the modern toilet as contributing to vericose veins. http://www.toilet-related-ailments.com/history-of-the-pedestal-toilet.html.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2009 18:44:05 by bam »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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I too have mentioned many times about the pressure from the good old toilet seat causing constriction on the vessels as the pelvis plus our weight presses down on the skin fat and muscle compressing the vascular network within. This is inevitably going to cause back pressure into the arteries.

A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate. I suspected that prolonged use of a toilet possibly due to constipation or even sitting on the loo reading a newspaper which is not uncommon could well have caused the rise in arterial BP that triggered the stroke.

The same principle applies or should I say must apply to the flesh and vessels on the soles and heels of our feet when we stand still for long periods. We have all observed the funny videos of the groom or bride standing motionless at a wedding collapsing without any prior warning.

Guards on duty face the same problem and have learned to shift weight by rocking from one foot to the other, this would of course induce a pumping action on the fluid filled tissue and assist circulation rather than standing motionless and compromising the circulation. Not rocket science either just good old common sense.

Turning over in bed while sleeping is certainly an automatic reflex to the constant pressure of sleeping in one position.

Thanks for raising these points and please read the entire thread when you have time as there are impressive reports here from people using Inclined therapy.

Andrew

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline RD

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A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate.

Elderly people "do an Elvis" because straining on the toilet is like the Valsalva maneuver which causes their weak heart to stop, (so it's typically heart failure not stroke when people die on the crapper).


["do an Elvis" = Cardio-vascular event at defecation]
« Last Edit: 10/10/2009 10:43:43 by RD »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1399412.stm

This is interesting RD

Your point about the heart and straining is also valid
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Offline jpi108

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The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

Read it closely and you'll see that it doesn't compare squatting to sitting for defaecation. So, the conclusion that sitting is less of a stroke risk is not justified. None of the subjects used the sitting position.

It is well known that defaecation itself causes a spike in blood pressure. Every year thousands of people get strokes and heart attacks straining on western toilets. It is also well known that squatting is more natural and reduces straining. That's why diverticulosis is only found in western countries.

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

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Offline bam

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Hi jpi, is that for Jonathan Isbit ?  I also believe that squatting reduces strain.  There's likely a higher risk for people who are overweight, have atrophied leg muscles and then also people with long legs as these three categories are going to have a hard time staying balanced in the squat position. The incline on that nature's platform is great but I think that the incline should just be for beginners and the goal should be to eventually be able to squat on a flat surface.  Personally I have found that the best elimination can only occur on a flat surface.  That squatting pressure from flat squatting is essential because just as sitting sort of works then squatting on an incline only works better than sitting but the ideal is on a flat surface where the effort to stay balanced presses the thighs on stomach and promotes the natural peristalsis which is somewhat lost with the incline though incline is better than sitting.  For people who have that risk of high blood pressure and stroke risk I think the ideal way to transition to Full squatting can begin by starting on the toes as in this image,



and then move on to perhaps squatting on an incline as the persons legs get stronger and then full squatting.  You have to realize that when you are eliminating better you are detoxing better and this only improves your blood pressure as your kidney function improves. Hopefully this discussion is not diverting the thread too much, maybe it might need its own thread.
« Last Edit: 13/10/2009 19:03:19 by bam »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Squating makes more sense as a means of reducing the compression on vessels which would inevitably cause blood to back up rather than circulating. That said, in the squat position the muscles would be contracted to support the weight of the body and this could indeed cause the vessels to be compressed by the tensed muscles. So not sure now which would be the best method.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Maureen

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Hi Alum,

Amazing difference in the before and after pictures! I'm sure you feel good because of the results so far and look forward to even better results down the road.

Maureen

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Offline alun006

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Thankyou Maureen

How are you doing ?

Yes, aswell as the vein improvement, i have also almost eradicated my knee pain issue that i have since i was 3 years old.
(I have been up to 6 weeks without a attack, and i used to have this 3 times a week.....) [:)]

That is great because the pain was horrible, when i had a attack. But the doctors could not explain this even though i had a tendent reduction when i was younger.

The only negative point, is a spider vein ankle flare on my left leg. This has not happened on the right as the pressure is not as near with the vv being higher up.

However this makes sense with the reduction on my calf vein.

But the positives outway the one negative i have experienced.

Thankyou Alun
« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 18:20:06 by alun006 »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Maureen

Thank's for your post regarding Alun's improvements in varicose veins. One would think that here among surgeons, scientists, doctors and nurses there would be great interest in these obvious developments. One begins to imagine that there may be considerable vested interests in trying to discredit this important discovery in circulation especially when reading the red text warning which I have only ever seen on my posts.

This is after all a science forum so one would expect that there are many out there repeating this simple experiment to try to disprove me. Yet there is not?

It is not science to say we "The Naked Scientists do not endorse any of Andrew K Fletcher's Physical, Biological or Medical assertions or opinions."

These are clearly not imagined improvements and Alun is a very genuine man with very genuine vascular problems and very genuine vascular improvements.

Now the dilema for anyone reading this thread is whether to trust hundreds of thousands of people working from literature that states you need expensive surgery or to trust a man who advises people to sleep on a tilted bed and watch their veins return to normal without the need for surgery or indeed a surgeon!

You could always wear support stockings and put your legs above the heart, rather impractical IMHO and unendorsable considering it has never reversed a varicose vein.

But to see what tilting a bed can do, you may want to read carefully through the posts from people with multiple sclerosis who have avoided sleeping on flat unscientific beds:

http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-8535.html

Unbiased Independent Research and proud to think outside the box!

Andrew K Fletcher


Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline beachbhoy

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Hello all, I have recently started IBT (within the last few days). I have had varicose veins developing since my late teen years which run in my family and I just happen to have had the worst case. They were never noticable in feeling (although clearly visible) until Oct last year when I started to 'feel'them. Not painful but kind of wierd. I was in the UK at the time so it may have been down to cold weather which my body hadn't really experienced for a while.

Anyway after the unsual internet research and visit to the doctor it was a toss up between a visit to a vascular surgeon who would prescribe 'tights' and offer surgery or IBT and an increase in certain flavanoids in my diet or supplements. Obviously I chose the later. Btw thankyou Andrew for at least investigating some kind of alternative to having them 'stripped' which gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Having read numerous posts on a variety of websites i'm given great hope that my veins will become managable. At 30 years of age this is not something you expect to be worrying about!

So onto the initial report: After a few days with IBT (our bed is raised by just over 14cm at the head with two blocks in the middle of the bed for support) myself and partner have found the bed doesn't feel much different to normal. We have found it a little more difficult to get to sleep but we're having a heatwave in Australia at the moment which could also be contributing. Obviously I dont expect to see results until weeks after so i'll take pictures and report back. My partner has no health issues but was willing to try IBT just for the general health benefits. Her main concern was that the bed was stable for 'happy times'!

As a foot note I went to a local brick yard where they have a multitude of different sized bricks. The 5 blocks I am using cost around 15dollars. I have a bed which looks like this:
head                                                             feet
    ---------------------------------------------
    ]                                                           [
----                                                             -------
So I had to factor in the larger gap above and add 7cm for the middle blocks. I also used two old shoes to cushion the middle blocks and fill the slight gap. Hope people can understand that! I looked for instructions on what to do with a bed frame like mine but they all referred to ensemble type beds which dont have a gap in the middle like mine.

Thanks again Andrew ill take regular photos and hope for results!
« Last Edit: 20/01/2010 07:49:33 by beachbhoy »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Thanks

Having another person willing to take photographs in the interest of science and document the changes due to IBT is a bonus.

It's also great to know that the red text has not put you off trying it for yourself and like you say, certainly esier to test than surgery.

Google "andrew k fletcher" and ms to see where this therapy is heading.

Look forward to hearing from you again

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline OldDragon

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Just a quick update here, as it's about 18 months now since I commenced IBT. I've had no further incidents of phlebitis since the one mentioned ages ago in this thread, and have not needed to request any steroid anti-inflammatory medication for the spinal flares either.

Last autumn/early winter, I was actually able to walk into a shoe shop and buy a pair of winter boots off the peg that fit both my feet and around my legs, so the oedema improvements have proven consistent and lasting. The swollen veins on the inside of my right knee where I was being troubled by regulart bouts of phlebitis are not visible anymore, either. Will manage to get some photos of those one of these days.
Pain Promotes Growth - Suffering is Optional.

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Offline MG

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I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

Thanks

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

YES, sleeping flat is a poor cousin to sleeping inclined.

My niece went full term on an inclined bed, couldnt lay down flat due to discomfort and pain.

Andrew

Thanks
« Last Edit: 19/02/2010 00:17:45 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Gragery40

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Really good and exotic informative post,but if a person becomes pro-active about their diet and health can easily return back to a normal lifestyle.Thanks for the recommendation.

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Offline frankwest12345

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I tried IBT for six months with no results for varicose veins. It did help with a mildly bad back (no need to do my strecthing exercises) and after two weeks there was a discernible lessening of the vv's but then they came back. In fact, over the winter the veins got worse but this I put down to the very cold weather as they are now back where they started.

I have just increased the bed height to eight inches but this made it difficult to get to sleep but will persist.

I would like to see more experimentation. IBT combined with compression stockings for instance. Inclined bed but with the head at the lower end.

I am going to start taking Serrapeptase which is an enzyme that takes out debris from the blood (and has been used for cleaning out arteries) and has some anecdotal evidence of helping vv. I am hoping that improved blood pumping from IBT combined with this enzyme will do the deed.

I think that there is enough evidence that IBT helps some people with vv but I think it is worth extending the experiment by combining it with other things (if it does not work after a few months).

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Sitting posture is very important also. Sitting with knees higher than seat compromises the effects from IBT overnight.

Your comment about the observed lessening of VV proves the therapy works. You then mention the cold weather causes them to bulge out again.

Alun also raised this question and we nailed it down to high humidity in his case.

Could the winter have meant that you spent longer than normal sitting in a chair? And is this chair tilted back so the seat is lower than knees when sitting? Does this chair (could be a car seat) apply pressure to the backs of the thigh muscles above the knees?

Alun also used to wear compression stockings. He no longer needs them. But they could as you say be used to speed up the effects of IBT when worn at night. And I have recommended this for several people who had oedema and it worked well to the point that the oedema vanished completely and the stocking was not longer required.

Now that your veins have returned back to where they were before the winter, have you found you are not sitting as much?

Very interesting post

Thanks

Andrew

Edited to change calf muscle to thigh muscles. My error sorry :)
« Last Edit: 21/03/2010 09:00:16 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline frankwest12345

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Hi Andrew, thanks for the comments. My armchair does indeed seat me lower than my knees so I have added some cushions to it. I usually do an eight mile walk three or four times a week, the only time I missed that was when we had the snow - maybe a couple of weeks at most.

I have already adapted to the eight inch bed height - interestingly, I find myself less inclined to stay in bed once I wake up, and find myself getting up as soon as it is light.

I will start compression stockings whilst sleeping, see if that helps.

I am now on day two of Serrapetase (60,000iu three times a day before food) and will also be adding Cayenne (inc Hawthorn) pills as this is reputed to have a highly stimulating effect on circulation.

BTW my mother's side of the family suffers from vv, my uncle had huge ones in both his legs but actually lived to 98, so we are talking bad genes here so if I can get rid of them anyone can (I am 53 BTW)... see what happens next

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Started IBT last September. At that time, I made reference to a nutritional publication, which unfortunately is no longer in print. No possible posting of links, obviously.
Since old habits are difficult to break, my IBT was rather sporadic initially. Even so, had some improvements to my vv's. Had a bad cold with a touch of bronchitis middle of February. Stopped me smoking cold, and that without any withdrawal symptoms at all. Perhaps IBT had something to do with it. If so, from a pack a day to zero - not bad at all.
Waiting for summer, as my vv's were worse then. A bit reluctant to post pictures, they really do lack appeal. Will see. BTW, whether my vv's will disappear this summer, next year, or gradually over a number of years, makes no difference to me. Just happy to know that regardless of age (67), I indeed can make them disappear by following IBT on a regular basis. Gives a totally different outlook on this situation.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Andrew, thanks for the comments. My armchair does indeed seat me lower than my knees so I have added some cushions to it. I usually do an eight mile walk three or four times a week, the only time I missed that was when we had the snow - maybe a couple of weeks at most.

I have already adapted to the eight inch bed height - interestingly, I find myself less inclined to stay in bed once I wake up, and find myself getting up as soon as it is light.

I will start compression stockings whilst sleeping, see if that helps.

I am now on day two of Serrapetase (60,000iu three times a day before food) and will also be adding Cayenne (inc Hawthorn) pills as this is reputed to have a highly stimulating effect on circulation.

BTW my mother's side of the family suffers from vv, my uncle had huge ones in both his legs but actually lived to 98, so we are talking bad genes here so if I can get rid of them anyone can (I am 53 BTW)... see what happens next

Made an error in previous post abut calf muscles, should have said back of thigh muscles just above the knee http://www.rwc.uc.edu/ap/LL17.JPG Note in the image the locations of the vessels just above the knee.

Pressure in this area could well be responsible for the swelling of veins during the daytime.

I have a new forum now on http://www.inclinedbedtherapy.com that is being updated regularly. The forum has a section for varicose veins and oedema and could use some input.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Unnaked Patient

Thanks for joining the revolution against flat unscientific sleeping :)



Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline frankwest12345

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Well I have made a little progress after two weeks with IBT at eight inches, taking Serrapetase three times a day and lately added Cayenne twice a day. I have posted some details and photos on https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Well I have made a little progress after two weeks with IBT at eight inches, taking Serrapetase three times a day and lately added Cayenne twice a day. I have posted some details and photos on https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/



Frank, thanks for providing photographs. The results so far are pretty impressive IMHO.

Very useful having photographs of before and after.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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https://sites.google.com/site/varicoseveinsphotos/

Frank the latest photograph is showing considerable improvements over the previous two. Thanks for updating.

Just had a call from a lady who mentioned you had updated your progress.

Hope your not stuck in the volcanic dust cloud while on holiday :)

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline swimmer

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INCLINED BED THERAPY for VARICOSE VEINS:

Andrew Fletcher,

I would like to join the I.B.T. documenting on varicose vein progress.
The doppler test was performd identifying reflux in both legs.
I have raised my bed 6" and have been taking photos (start date: 20MAY10)

Where do you start posting? (nakedscientist.com?  inclinedbedtherapy.com?.  andrewfletcher.com?)

Please advise on the most current website for posting. 

V/R
« Last Edit: 09/05/2010 10:12:48 by swimmer »

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Offline Rolander

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Hello. I am a 42 year old male with what I believe are VVs. I am very interested in this topic. I have had swelling on the insides of my ankles which resembles varicose veins following an acupuncture visit (though I can't be sure it was the acupuncture itself which caused it or what) for the last 10 years. The total area affected on each side is not much larger than 4 cm in length/diameter. In the last 4-5 years, the swelling and pain have gotten worse and have cost me lots of work. I can no longer sit at the office or carry on meetings normally. I can't deal with the explosive pressure when I hang my feet down for long. While extremely painful at times, they look like not much compared to some of the photos here. Lots of exercise SEEMS to improve it. Two weeks of rest just destroys me. It takes a ton of work to get my feet going again after that.

Other facts:
1) wearing tight socks which go above the ankles kills me. For a long time I could wear ONLY sandles (and loose ones). Now I wear socks which go just beneath the ankles, and this has allowed me to live a life in a winter climate again.
2) My nerve conduction velocities are all almost normal.
3) When tested in a sitting position at the doctor's office with special equipment, it seems clear that my feet are not returning blood as they are supposed to. They were clearly deficient, with my right leg being worse than my left leg.
4) Wearing the prescribed pressure stockings proved to be a disaster within 3-4 hours...I think they just cut off the circulation and I had pain for days.
5) I currently sleep flat and when working on my computer at home (which is about 8 hours a day), I usually have my feet elevated to the height of my buttocks -- but not higher. It is a hard, boring chair. How badly is circulation compromised just by sitting in a hard chair? I think quite a bit?
6) I exercise about a minimum of 90 minutes per day and a maximum of about 120 minutes per day. Gym/Running/Elliptical trainer.
7) I believe I have something which could be described as RSD, but feel that since MOST of the pain comes ONLY when hanging my feet down and swelling occurs--that the biggest problem are now the VVs. Without this pain with my feet in the dependent position, I could live a normal life I think.
8) Much of the character of the skin around my VVs and back sides of my ankles has changed. It is not "robust" -- but thinner and does not appear to have the same sheen as healthy, normal skin. However, the fatpads are growing back (I believe because of the massive rehab program I do, which gives my feet blood whether they want it or not!!!!).

I have a few questions after reading about IBT for the last three hours and watching the YouTube videos...

1) Does exercise help VVs or does it make them worse? I have started running 6-7 km every other day now. I feel better afterwards and am glad I am doing it.
2) I am considering some of the "non-stripping" methods of killing these VVs and then using IBT to help keep them away. However, after reading all of this, I may be willing to try this for a year first. However, now is a critical time in my love life and I would like to resolve this ASAP.
3) Isn't sitting supposed to be good for my VVs then? (as long as my feet are down???). And what about standing? I am confused. Is this obviously a matter of balancing competing effects for optimal results?
4) Getting blocks for my bed tomorrow. As I understand it, I need to be OVER five degrees!?!? So, if I estimate incorrectly and hit 10 degrees, it won't be a problem right? But will actually help? Why not sleep standing then? I am confused.
5) After reading some of your other websites and posts, I see that the evaporation and loss of water through respiration/perspiration is the continual driving force of the circulation? As a chemical engineer then, it seems it would make sense to sleep in a room with a fan which is forcing mass transfer from the surfaces as you would get a significantly higher rate of transfer.

Would love to share photos for advice, but it would be easier for me to email them to someone for posting perhaps.
« Last Edit: 15/07/2010 09:11:34 by Rolander »

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Offline bam

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hey andrew I wanted to post this on your new forum but I just got a message on it that it has been hacked.  I've been thinking about IBT and what is exactly conferring the benefits and it really does seem to stem from the fact that sleeping in an inclined bed stabilizes the spine so you can breathe better.  Conversely sleeping flat on a soft bed tends to misalign the spine and every time you breathe you incorporate the spine and particulary the lower spine as your body tries to compensate for not being able to get a full lung breath.  Also this is a good reason for constantly tossing and turning in bed, it is a poor effort to try to realign the spine properly which allows for full lung breathing to no avail. I would think that the ideal way to sleep would be flat on a hard surface for maximum breathing lung capacity but of course at first our joints would have to adjust for a while to what would feel like discomfort from weakened shoulder and hip joints.  I don't have any study on floor sleeping but if you are undergoing a full study then I would hope you will include sleeping on the floor as another control.  A drawback to the inclined bed that I haven't heard brought up that I hope you can address is the increased wear on the bed springs from not laying evenly.  Are you accounting for this ?  I can see how regularly flipping the bed would save the coils but is it possible that once the bed springs have adjusted to the new pressure from the body in incline that the IBT won't be conferring its benefits at least fully ?  Which brings me back to sleeping flat on the floor is the discomfort that is experienced at first the price you pay for the long term benefits which the inclined bed tries to offer ?

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Offline Karen W.

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Andrew I wanted to let you know and pass this on for all of us who had become friends with Al...My sincere sympathies go out to Al and her family and friends....
____________________________________________________

trpdpetcraftproject
 to me
   
show details 11:48 AM (12 hours ago)
   
Dear TRPD Member

It is with great sadness that we have to inform you that Al, or Old Dragon as most of us affectionately knew her has passed away suddenly.

I know Al will be greatly missed by all who knew her and all the rescues she worked so tirelessly on behalf of.

Several threads have been started in tribute to Al, please come and join us in remembering this remarkable lady

http://Http://petcraftproject.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=resqgen&action=display&thread=19444&page=1

Viv and all at TRPD

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline salta

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Hi, new to this forum. About 22 weeks into 3rd pregnancy I developed several quite bad leg varicose veins as well as a mass of spider veins. Some areas on the backs of my legs look like they have been hit with a cricket bat! I am very sad about it as my legs look very changed. Anyway, despite the constant 31 c and high humidity we live in, I am now having to wear graduated compression stockings every minute of the day as legs are very uncomfortable these days. I am now 25 weeks pregnant.

Anyway never having had this problem before I have searched the internet for any clues as to what might help. IBT does seem very interesting.

I have started sleeping with the bed raised about 4 inches at the top 2 weeks ago and then a week ago we raised it again to 7 inches. So its been two weeks now....not really noticed much difference except for the decrease in the need to pee during the night and husband's snoring has improved. I am drinking more water on purpose and using air con at night to assist the evaporation. I would post photos of my legs but I'm currently too upset by them, and the thought they may remain like this, to do this. When/if I see a good improvement I'll post the photos to give hope to others - especially as this thread doesn't seem to have covered much on vvs in pregnancy, yet it is very common and really uncomfortable. I also hope this is a safe thing to do in pregnancy!??

I am a bit concerned that not many people visit this thread anymore. I hope the improvements seen by Alun etc. have lasted and that new people might post their successes or failures to help give a clearer picture of what's realistic. Thanks

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SteveFish

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Salta:

Bed raised at the top? I hope this means feet above head.

Steve

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Salta:

Bed raised at the top? I hope this means feet above head.

Steve

IBT is the opposite and involves raising the bed at the head end. The photographs from Alun and others are genuine and show that tilting the bed so that is provides a head up platform rather than the head down Trendlenburg method produces positive results for people with varicose veins.

Spider or thread veins are different to the swollen twisted varicose veins we have shown improvements with.

For more information about this free therapy visit, http://inclinedbedtherapy.com or google inclined bed therapy.

We need a controlled study to test IBT against sleeping flat and I am sick and tired of approaching the medical profession to get this simple task done.

The heart rate decreases by 10 12 beats per minute. Respiration rate decreases by 4-5 breaths per minute when IBT is practised. Yet circulation improves along with metabolism and extremities become warmer quicker. (No more cold feet and hands in bed)

How does the literature account for these changes?

One PHD student conducting a study on IBT will open up one huge can of worms for our understanding of physiology.

So why has it taken nearly 20 years to have mainstream medicine investigate something so simple?

Andrew K Fletcher 
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline sky

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Andrew,how come this topic in this forum and your website's forum become inactive in 2011? I want to know the latest research progress of it for treating varicose vein.

I am new to IBT. I have varicose vein, and often feel the pain because of it even it's not very serious. my doctor told me the valves of vein not function as good as it should, and advise me the put my feet higher than the heart when sleeping.

last night I start to try IBT with 4 inch, but feeling some pain while sleeping and I could see the vein became more obvious  (more blue) than sleeping on flat bed. I could not sleep at all, then I went back to flat bed after 4 hours try. the pain went away on flat bed. I want to know if this is normal. when doing IBT, I don't know if vein valves are opened allowing blood to flow back to heart when doing IBT.

Hope to hear from you
sky   

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Sky

My main project Operation OASIS has taken president over my other work for now so please accept my apologise for neglecting this important thread.

We are still waiting for the medical profession to investigate these claims and yet nothing has emerged, though this was anticipated given the lack of interest from all concerned in the medical profession.

The first 2 weeks of IBT can be a little weird for some and certainly some discomfort is to be expected while you adjust to the new sleeping posture.

People have reported a pulling sensation in the legs during IBT and given that pressures inside the veins are altered it is not inconceivable that some pain and aches will emerge as a result of this.

We have had a great response from surgeons and consultants working in the new field of Chronic Cerebrospinal Venous Insufficiency or CCSVI which has been linked to multiple sclerosis by Dr Franz Shelling and Dr Paolo Zamboni, a 4 page article about IBT appeared in New Pathways Magazine which included testimonies from people with ms who have experienced significant improvements using this simple method. More information can be found on thisisms forum under the CCSVI section.

All of this research has been self funded and the therapy remains and always will remain free for anyone to test it.

Sincerely yours

Andrew K Fletcher   
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa1xbNUf9QQ   Instructional video showing how to convert a wooden framed bed for Inclined Bed Therapy for around £11.00

Easier than you might think.

Hope you enjoy the video

Happy Holidays

Andrew
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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It's been a while since Inclined Bed Therapy was introduced to this forum and thought it is a good time to ask for progress updates from those of us using IBT.

A new page on Facebook has stimulated some very interesting results and I hear from new people testing IBT almost every day with the same predictable positive results.

For those of you who have not yet heard about what IBT is and has already achieved for people with multiple sclerosis.

Inclined Bed Therapy has been shown to improve health and wellbeing of the many who have tried.
It's simple! raise the head of your bed by 6 inches and sleep on it!

Inclined bed therapy is where one's bed is raised 6 to 8 inches at the head by using bricks, wedges, or blocks to raise it (even books). This can have a positive effect on your health and help with many disorders including:- Spinal cord injury, Multiple Sclerosis, back pain, Circulatory problems, acid reflux or GERD, sinus and respiratory disorders, sleep apnea, low metabolism, edema in the legs, and many others.

Its free to try for everyone. Feel free to tell your friends and families. Inclined Bed Therapy has brought a new lease of life to thousands and it can help you!

Inclined Bed Therapy should only be used as part of a healthy lifestyle. A healthy lifestyle includes following a healthy diet, maintaining a healthy weight, and being physically active.

You can find us on http://facebook.com/inclinedbedtherapy where you can share experiences, ask questions and learn more about how this simple non-invasive FREE therapy can help you and your family.

Andrew K Fletcher (Originator of IBT)
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with