Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Please Help and Join Our Study to Show that Varicose Veins and Oedema will improve using Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) and do not Require Surgery.
To contribute your own observations to this important research you will need to become a member of the Nakedscientists forum.

Interview by Patrick Timpone on One Radio Network In Texas where Andrew explains how his discovery in plant and tree circulation led to applying it to our own circulation and question how we sleep and sit. http://youtu.be/x68PLE8MXJE

Using the Image link from a photobucket account to show pictures in your post:

Choose the code that has the [ img ][ /img ] boxes either side from photobucket in the drop down box, click on this link titled img code in photobucket highlite it and right click while on the image code / link and click copy. Go to your post and right click in the window that contains your text, click paste. Job done :)


6" or 15cms head end     3" or 7.5 cms middle   castors off the bottom
Why do varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed by sleeping on an inclined mattress affording a level but tilted surface with the head end 6 inches or fifteen cm's higher than the foot end?

How does physiology Literature account for this interesting observation?

You might be interested to learn that the causes of varicose veins are not understood and therefore the chance of anyone providing an answer to my question is pretty remote.

Why do veins become varicose?
The answer, in most cases, is that we don’t really know what causes varicose veins. There are two main theories.

Examination of Varicose Veins and Blow Outs or bulges. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ikb_b5WTijU

Post 30th July 2008

Karen Provided us with before and after photographs from several days of IBT. She also provided us with stats showing a marked decrease in blood pressure which can be found here on her thread about congestive heart failure and insomnia.  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=7069.125

Alun
We now have Our predicted photographic proof to support the above statement and together with the testimonies of several more people who have experienced varicose vein shrinkage and significant Oedema reduction. And still no interest from the medical profession? A series of photographs have been posted in support of this study which show a slow progressive shrinking in varicose veins.
Penny
A photograph of Penny who has also had problems with a large varicose vein that no longer bulges.
Jude
A Photograph showing my wife’s varicose vein, which went flat in 1994 and has not presented any problems since.
Old Dragon
Photographs of Oedema and varicose veins from Old Dragon who has also provided us with statistics for blood pressure, heart rate, respiration rate etc showing again a reduction in blood pressure due to sleeping on an inclined bed. We have some compelling anecdotal evidence. But is it really anecdotal when a prediction is made based on previous pilot studies over many years and is then proven to be correct and fully repeatable? Or is the word anecdotal in this case used to validate ignorance and contempt for something that has the potential to save life and limb?

Old Biker who accidentally forgot to take blocks out from under his bed, used to keep the head board away from the wall while it was drying became interested in why he felt much better after sleeping on an incline & googled to find our study and posted his own experiences. At 68 years young he has also noticed his varicose veins are shrinking.
Squirrel, who I know personally has provided us with another important testimony stating that her vascular surgeon advised her that after 4 repeated surgeries on her varicose veins they would inevitably return and require more surgery. she has avoided further surgery for 5 years and I have seen her legs and they no longer present any varicose problems after tilting her bed.

Squirrel has discovered that IBT assists the nerves to rapidly recover from injury with botox injections, rendering the botox useless. This is a very important observation because it confirms many years of research into neurological conditions including multiple sclerosis, Parkinson’s Disease, Cerebral Palsy,  Arachnoiditis and Spinal Cord Injury that IBT stimulates nerves to recover and regenerate.

From the onset of this study we are evidently on course to demonstrate that gravity is a beneficial driving force for circulation. We need many more people to join our study and provide us with vital photographic and written evidence. We are hoping for at least 50 people with varicose veins and / or oedema to become pioneers of this Free therapy.

Photographs can be uploaded to www.photobucket.com and then a link can be pasted to your photographs in this thread. Make a folder for your photographs where you intend to keep them because if you move them to another place in photobucket they will not be shown in the thread. Please also email me a copy at full resolution.

A simple and tidy way to modify a bed is to get a length of strong grey soil pipe from a builders merchant. Cut to correct lengths so Top of bed would be 7.5 inches middle of bed 3.25 inches and bottom of the bed 1.5 inches these fit over the castors of the bed and provide a better looking modification than the blocks. One length of pipe will do several beds and they are pretty cheap too, especially if you find one in the recycle centre that has not been used. The casters are then inserted into the pipe lengths.


Inclined Bed Therapy on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3D7tBQfCxQ

Andrew K Fletcher

If you are of the opinion that simply tilting a bed will have little effect on human physiology, perhaps you might be interested in what happens to the body when the bed is tilted in the opposite direction to imitate the massive effect that micro gravity has on healthy astronauts during space flight.

Staying in a NASA Bed For 90 Days Would Fetch You $17,000

NASA is appealing for healthy people to sleep on a bed tilted head down for long three months and is offering $5000 per month. Why would NASA be paying so much money for people to stay in bed?.
Their Bed Rest project aims at studying the consequences of long-term micro gravity in humans by making you lay down on a slightly-tilted bed with head down and feet up. Does not sound a lot to ask for $5000 a month? Or does it?
Participants will have to live in a special research unit during the entire study period and would be cautiously fed with a controlled diet. Immediately following the initial 11-15-days, applicants will be subjected to prolonged stay of 90 days lying in bed with exceptional change of undergoing specific tests.
On daily basis, they will be awake for 16 hours and can take a sleep of 8 hours. As a pat of process, they will undergo countless tests to identify changes in their state of their bone, muscle, heart and circulatory system, and nervous system plus their nutritional condition and ability to fight against infections would be checked. Want to give it a try? To apply click here.
NASA Human Test Subject Facility (HTSF) http://www.bedreststudy.com/
 The Bed Rest Study web site is currently down for maintenance. We will be accepting new applicants in the near future
But you need to ask yourself why would NASA be offering so much money to sleep head down tilt for such a long time? I don’t mean ask about their reasons for advancing the space programme, but why would someone want to pay you all that money?

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/behindscenes/bed_rest_study.html

To Help with our study, you need to join Nakedscientists forum in order to post your observations and photographs.

« Last Edit: 13/08/2014 07:53:11 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Question for Doctors and Nurses: Please explain why varicose veins shrink after 4 weeks of inclined bed therapy and continue to improve further over the following months? Inclined bed therapy is sleeping on a level but tilted mattress sloping down from head to toe at a five degree angle, head being higher than feet. This is a prediction based on pilot study results so if you have varicose veins and oedema I suggest you read carefully through this thread as it evolves.

The literature you rely on cannot explain why sleeping head up rather than head down, or legs elevated is having such a profound and obvious beneficial effect.

« Last Edit: 06/08/2009 09:49:23 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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paul.fr

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Andy
Whilst this is slightly off topic, those reading may find your reply of interest.

1. Does this question relate to studies that you have conducted, or research carried out?

2. When did "inclined bed therapy" first begin to be researched?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Paul

Yes this relates to my own research into the way solutes change pressures inside the body as they are drawn through the vessels by gravity. The first to observe improvements in varicose veins was a nurse called Stephanie from Paignton, who reported improvements in her varicose veins after a 4-week period of IBT. Coincidence? I would agree, but simultaneously my wife’s varicose vein deflated and no longer ached and this happened 2 weeks earlier than Stephanie’s improvements. Followed by improvements in my mother’s varicose veins and my late father’s varicose veins improved also. And then Penny Meredith reported bulging varicose veins shrinking. And since then there have been many more reports of improvements in varicose veins, which flies in the face of accepted physiology erroneously suggesting that elevating the legs higher than the heart will improve unsightly veins. It may provide relief temporarily but it simply does not address the underlying cause of varicose veins and indeed makes use of the same gravity driven flow.

When solutes are dissolved in fluids the density of the fluids changes accordingly. When concentrations of solutes rise due predominantly to evaporation of solute free water in the breath and from the skin, the resulting denser fluid is shifted due to the influence of gravity taking the path of least resistance towards the ground. This downward flow is generally in the artery and exerts a positive pressure on the inside of the walls, and forces fluids down under a positive pressure, while at the same time generates a negative tension behind it causing a dragging effect so powerful that it provides a negative tension in the venous return more than capable of pulling fluids from the surrounding tissue back into the venous return and into the main circulation where it is then filtered and excreted in the urine as it should be. Evidence for this is density changes in urine during IBT, measuring urine output density of myself and my partner sharing the same IBT, flat bed rest and head down bed rest. The results were staggering showing IBT to produce urine density significantly higher than flat bed rest or head down bed rest or normal daily activity. But here is the crunch. Urine density dropped off to near water density when Head Down Bed rest was adopted. Proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that salts and other toxins arrive in the bladder because of the interaction of dissolved solutes and gravity.

I didn’t expect any replies to my post, because my own observations cast serious doubt on the validity of accepted and deeply rooted physiology. In fact I would have been surprised if someone had come up with an answer to the initial question.

My research began in 1993 when I was heavily involved in an irrigation project. During which the question arose as to how to address salt build up in land exposed to sustained high evaporation rates. Irrigated land under these conditions inevitably poisons the soil leaving behind a crust of salt. Except where trees are present, they live for many years under the same irrigation scheme yet somehow manage to maintain the equilibrium of salt verses water ratio. So the question as to what exactly these trees were doing with the salts arose leading me to investigate fluid transport in trees and plants, later applying the same paradigm to the way animals and humans function, leading on to testing the theory by avoiding a flat bed and using IBT to see what if anything changes, which took place in the early part of 1994. Our bed has remained tilted ever since and so has the bed of many friends, family and complete strangers who have realised that there might be something seriously wrong with sleeping on a flat totally unscientific bed!

Andrew   
« Last Edit: 23/09/2007 12:26:30 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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   Varicose veins shrink during Inclined Bed Therapy, usually within a 4 week period of avoiding a flat bed. No surgery, drugs or diet changes, it's a fact! Varicose veins are caused because the pressure inside the vein is increased. A vein is not strong enough to resist high positive pressures resulting from the heart and blood pressure. The arteries however do resist positive pressure effectively. So the question should be how does physiology today explain the absence of positive pressure inside a vein when the heart is believed to be the sole source of output in circulation? The heart is a pump after all and the circulatory system inside our body is linked to the pump. So it is easy to understand why a pump will inevitably inflate both the artery and the vein and therefore easy to understand how varicose veins occur. But the puzzle remains as to why varicose veins do not affect everyone in the same way?

Raising the legs higher than the heart can temporarily relieve varicose veins. The improvements using this method are very short term and the problem does not resolve using this method. Surgery is often used to repair damaged veins, it is often painful, and runs the constant risk of infection along with the possibility of venous collapse, where the repaired vein closes restricting circulation and resulting in further costly surgery.

Also when a person exercises by jogging or walking briskly it will inevitably increase the heart rate and therefore the output from the heart should be expected to increase the pressure in the artery and the vein, yet this does not happen, in fact the pressure in the vein is reduced and the pressure in the artery is increased respectively. This is well known hence the need to exercise following vein surgery.

1.   If the heart is solely responsible for pumping fluids why does a needle inserted into a vein not cause blood to spurt out as it would in an artery?
2.   What is causing the reduction in venous pressure during exercise?
3.   Why does I.B.T. cause the veins to visibly shrink in 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed?
4.   How does lymph circulation occur?
5.   What is driving the cerebrospinal fluid?
6.      During development, long before a heart emerges, circulation occurs. This is primary circulation. Even before the heart becomes the familiar pump and looks more like a loop of tubing, a pulsatile flow develops. What causes this pulsatile flow?

Andrew K Fletcher
« Last Edit: 23/09/2007 12:29:20 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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http://www.vascularsociety.org.uk/Docs/Provision%20of%20Vascular%20Services.pdf
THE PROVISION OF
VASCULAR SERVICES 2004 Vascular Surgical Society of
Great Britain and Ireland
The provision of an effective vascular service is relatively expensive. Vascular units have high bed occupancies and some of the patients may need prolonged hospital stays, particularly in centres where rehabilitation and community services are not readily available to take over the care of amputees or elderly patients. The surgery is technically demanding and consumes a lot of theatre time with significant demands on ITU/HDU facilities.
Over 30% of the population will develop varicose veins, although recent guidelines from the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) have undoubtedly reduced referrals to the vascular service from primary care.
Despite this reduction, varicose vein surgery remains a significant demand on the vascular service for the 10% of the population who will develop skin changes as a result of chronic venous insufficiency and for those who have particularly troublesome symptoms.
Chronic venous ulcers occur in 1% - 2% of the population over the age of 60 years and consume up to 2% of total health spending, let alone the associated loss of economic productivity.

Peripheral arterial disease may progress to critical limb ischaemia, with constant and intractable pain preventing sleep, often with ulceration or gangrene of the extremity. These patients are at particular risk of losing their limb without treatment and a high proportion present as emergencies. Interventional treatment is essential to avoid amputation. Such treatment is both clinically valuable and cost-effective4. When loss of the limb becomes unavoidable, amputation and early post-operative rehabilitation is the responsibility of the
vascular surgeon.


Limb Fitting Service/Rehabilitation
Peripheral vascular disease is one of the major indications for lower limb amputation, which is usually performed by vascular surgeons. Patients need local access to a limb fitting service and although this need not necessarily be on the same site, there should be close collaboration between surgeons and prosthetists with a team approach to tailor the individual needs of each patient to their care. A specialist rehabilitation unit is a more appropriate environment than an acute surgical ward for amputees who no longer require active
medical treatment but have not yet reached the stage where they can manage at home.
 The Provision of Vascular Services 2004


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/varicose_veins/hospital.htm
Hospital Statistics for Varicose veins


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/varicose_veins/stats-country.htm

Statistics by Country for Varicose veins
Prevalance of Varicose veins:
45 per 1000 (NHIS95)
Prevalance Rate for Varicose veins:
approx 1 in 22 or 4.50% or 12.2 million people in USA



European Journal of Vascular and Endovascular Surgery 2000; 20: 386-9
http://www.gvg.org.uk/vvinfo.htm#causes
Recurrent varicose veins

Varicose veins can recur even after entirely satisfactoy surgical treatment although their reputation for doing so is often overstated. Reasons for the later re-appearance of varicose veins may include:
Inadequate initial operations can lead to the early recurrence of varicose veins. Dissection in the groin and behind the knee to disconnect superficial veins from the deep system, at a site of valvular incompetence, needs to be carried out with meticulous care. The anatomy is often quite variable but it is essential that all small communicating branches of the veins are identified, tied and divided completely otherwise these provide a route for rapid refilling of superficial veins.
Similarly, failure to appreciate that there is more than one separate site of valve leakage at the pre-operative assessment will lead to early failure of the operation if all significant sites of incompetence are not dealt with.
Regrowth of tiny vein branches (neovascularisation) is a somewhat contentious cause of recurrent varicose veins, the probable importance of which is only just beginning to be appreciated. Recent research, much of it carried out in Gloucestershire, has demonstrated conclusively that multiple tiny vein branches can grow and develop through scar tissue in a matter of months, providing a new connection between deep and superficial veins even after an entirely adequate initial disconnection operation. Recognition of this fact has led to a number of modifications of surgical technique aimed at reducing the incidence of the problem. These include:
      - wide resection and diathermy destruction of disconnected branches.
      - routine stripping of the long saphenous vein in the thigh to make communication
        with calf varicose veins more difficult if neovascularisation occurs in the groin.
      - barrier methods to make it more difficult for veins to rejoin, including sewing
        adjacent tissue over the stump of tied vein and covering the divided end of the
        vein with a patch of artificial material such as PTFE.


Guess no one here will admit to having varicose veins. So not much chance of getting anyone to test the inclined bed therapy and disprove or prove what I have stated here either. Which is a crying shame when we are supposed to be interested in science.
« Last Edit: 03/07/2008 11:32:31 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Thought we were all scientists here. Here we have a great opportunity to prove a very important point in human physiology.

Showing that pressure changes from positive to being low enough to draw the varicose vein back from bulging above the skin surface to being level with the skin surface by altering the tension in the blood inside the vein due to sleeping with the head end of the bed elevated by 6 to 8 inches instead of sleeping flat must be of interest to any physiologist, doctor, vascular surgeon, physiotherapist or indeed that health service in general. Yet this thread is not getting the responses I anticipated. After all, we currently elevate the legs, which is thought to relieve pressure. Yet inadequate, risky and costly surgery continues to be performed and often has to be repeated over and over again. Why? Because operating on a bulging vein does not address why the vein was bulging in the first place! Change the pressure inside the vein and you are addressing the problem at its source!

I demand that a study should be set up to test this. In fact I have been demanding that a study should test this to many High ranking Health Officials, politicians, surgeons, professors doctors and nurses since 1994 when this important discovery was observed for the first time on my wife’s varicose vein and the veins of 2 local nurses.

This is by no means the first time I have called for a controlled study into IBT and indeed this thread dated 25/06/2005 on this same forum calls out for that same illusive study. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2262 I am grateful to Doctor Chris who highlights some of the bureaucratic B.S. that stands in the way of research and progress today. And all the time people are losing limb and life when all that is required to save many of them is the realisation that gravity works with the circulation and not against it!

While trying to remain calm in the hope of someone who can allow this simple study to take place so that it is under the scrutiny of people who can validate or indeed disprove it --(which will not be the case!) I feel like I am going to explode with rage and anger and punch someone to a bloody pulp. But Calm it must be for now at least.

Google "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher"

http://embarrassingproblems.co.uk/varicose.htm
‘Varicose’ simply means swollen
Varicose veins are the price we pay for our upright posture; if we still walked on all fours, we probably wouldn’t have them
One person in five has varicose veins or is likely to get them (Misconception)
Varicose veins usually develop slowly over 10–20 years
Recent research has found that varicose veins are more common in men than in women
60 000 people in England have hospital treatment for varicose veins every year
Varicose veins are more common in Wales than anywhere else in the world

Andrew K Fletcher
« Last Edit: 03/08/2008 09:47:45 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline shrewbolt

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Andrew, mind enlightening us on how an erection is driven by gravity? Or has that not come up yet?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Oddly enough, impotence has also been reported to have become less of a problem when horizontal bed-rest is avoided, even in diabetes type1 after many years of waking with no erection it has been resolved. However it is far more likely we will be able to conduct a study into varicosity than penile erection, so for now I would like to remain focused on the introduction of a varicose vein study.

However, I will add that simply releasing a denser fluid down an artery, lymph or vein could well induce sufficient pressure as to inflate flaccid veins. And can be shown using soft walled latex or silicone tubing, where one side of an inverted U tube inflates while the other side deflates simply by introducing salt solution at the upper end of the n tube
Andrew, mind enlightening us on how an erection is driven by gravity? Or has that not come up yet?
« Last Edit: 15/04/2008 12:43:26 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline BenV

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releasing a denser fluid down an artery

I'm assuming you mean in the direction that blood is already flowing in an artery? Introducing anything against the flow would be difficult.

While I appreciate that you have observed benefits of sleeping on an inclined bed, I'm not fully convinced by your proposed mechanism.  I haven't fully read it through yet, and I know that there are many threads where you explain it on here, so lets not go into that here.

One thing puzzles me though - why would we be physiologically adapted to sleeping off-horizontal?  It's a safe bet to assume we evolved from a species which slept in nests in trees, and therefore foetally.  Do you propose this was a trade off for bipedalism?

Oh, and Andrew, you need to calm down.  If you want to see the research done, you may need to do some of it yourself - demanding that other people carry out research will never work.  I suggest you try to find as many people as possible to try inclining their beds, and have their blood pressure (I assume, in your experience, inclining the bed effects blood pressure?) measured before and after a set period.

Ask them not to change their diet or level of activity during this time.  Anecdotal evidence will get you nowhere - if you can demonstrate a significant change in blood pressure (as one marker) with a significant number of people, and demonstrate that the pressure returns to prior levels after resuming horizontal bed rest, then you are far more likely to get someone to look into it.

It's also pretty important that you do not tell people what it is you're looking for - if someone can just dismiss any effect as placebo, they are less likely to look into it any further.  Tell your volunteers you're looking into something else - sleep patterns maybe?

Do not suggest you know why it happens.  Do not offer any explanation. Do not tell them your mechanism.  Just offer sound data that shows significant improvement.

If you can do that, someone will probably look into it.
« Last Edit: 15/04/2008 13:17:15 by BenV »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Ben, introducing solutes even against the blood flow has been done by inducing complete reversal of the blood from the skin to the brain using exercise. Michel Cabanac, University Laval Canada using a doplar placed where the nose meets the eye. Cabanac Initially interpreted his results as the brain trying to cool itself and reversing the blood flow. Yet in Cabanac’s own words, there are no valves, so this cannot be the case. What I proposed to him was that the intense exercise regimen generated sufficient heat to greatly increase the evaporation from the scalp, eyes, face and neck and the resulting changes in density of the fluids beneath the skin surface altered the direction of the bloodflow, against the normal flow.

A new born after taking his / her) first breath releases salts and other chemicals down the main artery as evaporation inevitably changes the density of the fluids in the lungs for the first time.

salt-aerosol has been used experimentally in the lungs of animals.

salt-aerosol is used via nasal introduction of drugs
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Offline BenV

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introducing solutes even against the blood flow has been done by inducing complete reversal of the blood from the skin to the brain using exercise. Michel Cabanac, University Laval Canada using a doplar placed where the nose meets the eye. Cabanac Initially interpreted his results as the brain trying to cool itself and reversing the blood flow. Yet in Cabanac’s own words, there are no valves, so this cannot be the case.
That sounds interesting - could you send me a reference so I can give it a read?

My point was really about the differences in flow dynamics between arterial and venous blood - arterial blood is moving so quickly and at such high pressures that I would doubt solutes could move against it in any meaningful way.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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M. Cabanac1   and H. Brinnel1
(1)    Laboratoire de Physiologie associé au C.N.R.S. Nℴ 180, Université Claude Bernard, C.H.U., Lyon-Sud, B. P. 12, F-69600 Oullins, France
Accepted: 12 April 1985   
Summary  The direction of the blood flowing in the emissary veins (vena emissaria mastoidea and v. e. partietalis) was recorded in human subjects during moderate hyperthermia and hypothermia. During hyperthermia the blood flowed rapidly from skin to brain. During hypothermia either no flow could be detected or the blood flowed slowly from brain to skin. On two fresh cadavers the calvaria was removed with the scalp adhering. Gentle massaging of the scalp produced abundant drops of blood on the inner surface of the bone each time the scalp was massaged, thus showing that cutaneous blood can flow inward through the bone. These results support the hypothesis of selective brain cooling in hyperthermic humans by offering a possible mechanism.
Key words  Venous blood flow - Temperature regulation - Emissary veins - Brain cooling
News Physiol Sci 1: 41-44, 1986;
1548-9213/86 $5.00
News in Physiological Sciences, Vol 1, 41-44, Copyright © 1986 by International Union of Physiological Sciences
Keeping a Cool Head
M Cabanac
The mammalian brain has poor tolerance to increased temperature. However, when body core temperature rises during exercise or heat stress, the temperature of the brain can remain at a lower level, somewhat independent of the rest of the body. In several mammals the cooling of the brain is related to anatomically well-defined countercurrent heat exchangers. Humans lack these distinct anatomic structures, but significant cooling of the brain can nevertheless occur. Such selective cooling of the brain may have important medical implicantions.

Dean Falk http://www.anthro.fsu.edu/people/faculty/falk/radpapweb.htm

1. Role of emissary veins

Whole-body cooling takes place when arterial blood is cooled through the effects of evaporation of sweat from the body’s surface, a process that also contributes to regulation of brain temperature via its arterial supply. Michel Cabanac and Heiner Brinnel proposed an additional mechanism for selectively cooling the brain under conditions of intense exercise that results in hyperthermia. Because experimental evidence revealed that blood flows out of the cranium through the mastoid, ophthalmic and parietal emissary veins in hypothermic subjects but into the braincase in hyperthermic subjects, Cabanac and Brinnel reasoned that venous blood that is cooled at the head’s surface through the effects of evaporation on dilated veins is selectively delivered into the braincase under, and only under, conditions of hyperthermia (oral temperature of 37.6oC + 0.18o).  The authors noted that innumerable, microscopic emissary veins exist in humans, and demonstrated (by massaging a cadaver’s skullcap) that blood is capable of flowing through this network from the outside of the skull to the diploic veins within the cranial bones and then to the inside of the braincase.

The three emissary veins that were used to record direction of blood flow are located at dispersed points of the network that supplies the entire skull: at the face (ophthalmic), behind the ear (mastoid), and at the top back part of the skull (parietal). (See Figure 1.) Cabanac and Brinnel concluded that when blood flows into the braincase in these three emissary veins, it also does so in the innumerable tiny veins that comprise the entire network. According to this hypothesis, venous blood cooled at the head’s surface under hyperthermic conditions flows into the braincase over a disperse network of tiny veins (the cranial radiator). This is a selective brain cooling mechanism that serves to keep brain temperature in check. Cabanac and Brinnel’s hypothesis became controversial among physiologists who claimed that existence of an anatomical network of cranial veins capable of delivering cooled blood into the braincase was speculative. This point will be returned to in Section III.     


« Last Edit: 19/04/2008 10:19:06 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline BenV

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I'll give that a proper read soon.  But my point still stands that it's practically impossible to introduce solutes that will move against the flow in arteries.  I was only being pedantic that arteries were included in the list.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Ben, No it is not impossible to introduce a solute and cause the arterial blood flow to change direction, in fact it is highly probable that introducing solutes will slow down the arterial blood flow and cause circulatory collapse leading to respiratory failure followed by cardiac arrest. This can be observed in a simple tubular model showing two directional flow in the same tube, and has been observed many times by me and a few others by adding different coloured dyes to the solutes we can see for example a blue less dense fluid flowing up and a red more dense fluid flowing down, the turbulence caused by this effect shows how the arterial revered flow scenario is probable. The resulting back pressure generated by the falling solutes would pose considerable problems for the heart to overcome.

Also, using silicone or latex walled tubes we can show solutes inflating the wall of an inverted n tube and deflating the juxtapose solute free side showing clearly that solutes change the internal pressures of the model to a degree that is clearly visible with the naked eye
« Last Edit: 19/04/2008 12:10:28 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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This question is very basic. I have yet to receive one single reply as to why varicose veins shrink when the head of the bed is raised to +5 degree to the horizontal and flat bedrest is avoided for 4 weeks? If you are working in the Health Industry then you should want to know more about this and you should want to question why it is not mentioned in any literature.

If you don't have an answer then you should say "I don't have an answer" To ignore this question is not an option because I will continue to badger everyone until I get a statisfactory answer..

What happens when we sleep the opposite way round with our head down?


F. Louisy1   , C. Gaudin1, J. M. Oppert1   , A. Güell2 and C. Y. Guezennec1

(1)  C.E.R.M.A. = Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches de Médecine Aérospatiale, Base d'Essais en vol, F-91228 Brétigny-sur-Orge Cedex, France
(2)  Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, Toulouse, France
(3)  CNES-NASA = Centre National d'Etudes, Spatiales, National Aéronautics and Space Agency, France

Accepted: 18 April 1990 

Summary  Venous distensibility of the lower limbs was assessed in six healthy men who were submitted twice successively to 1 month of –6° head-down bedrest, with and without lower body negative pressure (LBNP) (LBNP subjects and control subjects, respectively). Venous capacity ( V v,max, in ml·100 ml–1) of the legs was determined by mercury strain gauge plethysmography with venous occlusion. Plethysmographic measurements were made on each subject before (Dc), during (D6 and D20) and after (5th day of recovery, D+5) bedrest. During bedrest, LBNP was applied daily, several times a day to the subjects submitted to this procedure. Results showed a gradual increase in V v,max (ml·100 ml–1) throughout the bedrest, both in the control group [ V v,max = 2.11 SD 0.54 at Dc, 2.69 SD 0.29 at D6, 4.39 SD 2.08 at D20, 2.39 SD 0.69 at D+5, P<0.001 (ANOVA)] and in the LBNP group [ V v,max = 2.07 SD 0.71 at Dc, 2.85 SD 1.19 at D6, 3.75 SD 1.74 at D20, 2.43 SD 0.94 at D+5, P<0.001 (ANOVA)], without significant LBNP effect. These increases were of the same order as those encountered during spaceflight. It is concluded that –6° head-down bedrest is a good model to simulate the haemodynamic changes induced by exposure to weightlessness and that LBNP did not seem to be a good technique to counteract the adverse effects of weightlessness on the capacitance vessels of the lower limbs. This latter conclusion raises the question of the role and magnitude of leg venous capacitance in venous return and cardiac regulation.
Key words  Vein haemodynamics - Bedrest - Lower body negative pressure - Venous return

This study was part of a joint CNES — NASA project designed to evaluate the efficiency of periodic lower body negative pressure exposures to prevent microgravity effects on certain physiological parameters (orthostatic tolerance, work capacity, muscle changes, etc....;) in order to prepare the future manned space missions Hermes and Colombus.
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paul.fr

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Andrew, i may have asked this before...
But, how did you arrive at the 6 inches or 5 degree angle? Why not 8 , or 3 degrees?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Going higher than 6 degrees means your comfort is compromised as you move down the bed. So there is a trade off from not sliding down the bed.

Originally I was trying to find a way to determine the optimum angle for circulation according to the way solutes are moved when suspended or dissolved in liquid.

As I was experimenting with fluids in clear plastic tubes, and observing how solutes rotate fluids in a closed loop of tubing, the downward flowing solute added side suspended vertically, representing the phloem in trees and the arteries in the human body, while the upward flowing less dense solute free side representing the upward flowing xylem in trees and venous return in the human body.

So logically, to stretch this closed loop of water filled tubing from one end of the bed to the other and observing how solutes alter the steady state of fluids within to a powerful flow and return circulation when the bed is raised to 5 degrees. And to see a circulation where the solutes flow down one side of the loop of tubing and cause clean water to flow over the top of the downward flowing solute giving rise to a two directional flow with no overall rotation of the complete loop of tubing when raised lower than 4 degrees. Adding food colouring to solutes gives a clear visual picture of the flow and turbulence caused by the solutes as they move allows one to easily determine how the circulation is flowing.

The proof that the angle was correct came from several people who had experiences some pretty amazing results from varicose veins going flat or near flat within 4 weeks of avoiding a flat bed. This was the Eureka moment for me. It told me that solutes do alter the flow of fluids through the human body and that the pressure than had been causing the veins to bulge had now changed to a greatly reduced pressure pulling the veins in. And this can be the only answer as to why lowering the legs as opposed to raising them addresses oedema in the lower limbs by changing the direction of the flow back through the veins and into the main circulation where it is excreted in the urine.
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Accept the challenge and go find a single explanation anywhere that addresses THE FACT that varicose veins are observed with the naked eye to substantially reduce in size when flat bed-rest is avoided by raising the head end of the bed 15 cm's higher than the foot end. This is not rocket science and anyone in their own home can repeat this, yet it is nowhere to be found in the literature. WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS THE CASE? Why is this not mentioned in Medical School? Why is it not mentioned in nursing and why does your doctor and surgeon continue to offer surgical procedures that do not address the reason why the veins are bulging in the first place?

Could Inclined Bed Therapy prevent many more circulation related medical problems and even reverse many of them preventing the unnecessary amputations and loss of life through gangrene and infections that we see in our hospitals in the year 2008?

Could tilting the bed prevent urinary tract infections and help to resolve blood pressure problems?

Are you going to ignore this post?

Andrew K Fletcher

« Last Edit: 25/05/2008 11:17:54 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Bored chemist

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"Why is this not mentioned in Medical School? Why is it not mentioned in nursing and why does your doctor and surgeon continue to offer surgical procedures that do not address the reason why the veins are bulging in the first place?"
IS it in the mainstream medical literature? If not then you can hardly blame them for not knowing about it.
Is there a proper double blind study?
If not then they might get accused of "quackery", which, together with the threat of being sued might put a lot of them off mentioning it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Getting sued for tilting a bed? Come on.... The medical profession tilt beds all the time! Maybe not correctly but they tilt them and don't get sued! So should they then be accused of quackery?

I have stated a fact and have been stating it since 1995. I have met with vascular surgeons, professors at Exeter University and Derriford Hospital for the purpose of setting up a controlled study to save the NHS countless £millions. Yet I have failed miserably to locate someone who is prepared to tilt beds for 4 weeks and measure the results to either disprove or prove what I have found to be true!

Just because it is not in the literature does not automatically warrant the label of quackery! It does however warrant further investigation and when this is proved WHICH IT WILL UNDOUBTEDLY WILL BE! There will need to be some serious revision of the current physiology literature! And that my friend is a FACT!
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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These are photographs of my wife's leg taken a few minutes ago and uploaded so that you can all see the marks where her vein once prominently bulged out yet now lays flat and is hardly visible. Jude was examined by a friend who is a doctor. She said that this was never a varicose vein. Believe me it used to bulge like a small egg and became very painful and unsightly, particularly when she walked up hills.

She added I had forgotten all about that until you just mentioned it. I can't even see it myself anymore.

Her vein went flat after only 4 weeks of IBT and has never troubled her since! That was over 14 years ago!

I Need your Help to set up a study. I can't do this alone. Believe me I have tried but without cooperation from either a hospital, a nursing home, medical school, a sleep study centre, a charity, a surgeon or even a doctor and his or her patients, it will mean that many people will continue to have surgery and will continue to put their lives at risk of infection and circulatory failure and more to the point repeated and totally unnecessary operations.

Inclined Bed Therapy costs nothing!
« Last Edit: 27/05/2008 13:11:30 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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From an earlier attmpt to move this forward.

Andrew K Fletcher

Posts: 1150
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MessageID: 18045
25/06/2005 08:53:08 »       

I would like to conduct a very simple study with varicose veins, oedema and leg ulcer, and would appreciate some help and guidance in achieving this.

Peter Lewis, a vascular surgeon from Torbay Hospital, has already tested the intervention and reported successful results. Professor Edzard Urnst, Exeter Hospital, and My own G.P. have expressed an interest in this exciting intervention.

So, I guess the question is, are there any doctors, surgeons, nurses who would be interested in lending a hand to test a simple intervention, which has been shown to be highly efficient in reducing / resolving all of these conditions in a pilot study?

Given that Nursing staffs suffer with varicosity, it could prove very rewarding for all concerned.

I look forward to your replies with interest

Respectfully yours

Andrew K Fletcher

Tel 01803 524117

chris
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MessageID: 18046
28/06/2005 09:27:19 »   

Andrew

in this day and age of complete intellectual destitution and the perception that all doctors are evil and incapable of treating their patients with an ounce of respect, before you go near anyone with a feasibility study you'll need to have filled in a 56-page long COREC ethics form.

And then wait ages whilst a bunch of loony-lefty control freaks decide that they want 500 pages more information, and evnetually you might get permission to do something.

This bull**** is paralysing research in this country now. The days of being able to test a good idea on a few anonymous samples, to see whether it justifies a grant application, are gone.

I'm currently wading through all this rubbish. I spent about a week on the grant application, tops, and then then last week filling in a forum twice the length, to get ethical approval to study DNA extracted from a whole bunch of anonymous breast cancers.

The very people that this lunacy is designed to protect - the public - are going to become victims because the discoveries that would have been made are going to take far longer to uncover, so the human health benefits will be lost for many.

Chris
 
Andrew K Fletcher
MessageID: 18536
18/07/2005 07:50:08 »       

Almost missed your post Chris.

Have already approached the Torbay Ethical Committee regarding ethical approval.

Their reply was, they did not believe ethical approval was required for this particular “Proposed Study” as the inclined bed is used in hospitals to help with Reflux on incubators and adult beds, and is already therefore approved.

Because no drugs are involved and the principle is obvious and has been tested over many years to be safe in its short term use, I can see no obstacle in our way, other than trying to obtain funding, albeit comparatively miniscule funding.
The problem is that drug companies hold the purse strings on 99% of trial/study funding, and have little interest in funding non-drug related research.

Sorry I missed your post Chris

Andrew

chris
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So what do you need funding for ?

Chris
 
Andrew K Fletcher
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MessageID: 18573
18/07/2005 21:02:48 »       

Chris, if the results from this proposed study are from a self funded study and do not involve the medical community in any way, the results will be ignored as you well know, and as I have already observed.

Funding would be required to pay for any professional people who would like to get involved. I myself would be glad to work for free in order to prove the efficacy of the inclined bed therapy as a means to provide a long term care environment for patients with oedema, varicose veins, leg ulcers and thromboembolisms.

Unless you know of professional people that would like to help in the study without charging for their services, which I think would be unfair, given the need to monitor the people taking part.

Any ideas on the best way forward would be greatly appreciated.

Andrew



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chris

So what do you need funding for ?

Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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 Too much money involved in surgery to do a study with an alternative that does not cost anything and involves no risks? Not a single comment on the photograph provided?

Anyone here got varicose veins and is willing to give this a try and hopefully provide before and after photographs for us all to see?

Enough anecdotal evidence provides a compelling argument for a full trial!

So why is nothing being done with this simple intervention when surgery is costing the NHS a fortune?

Inclined bed therapy works! Inclined bed therapy is free! Varicose veins shrink when the body is tilted correctly!

This does not fit with the literature so the literature is obsolete! and that is a fact!


The NHS could save millions of pounds by rationing unnecessary varicose vein operations, says new research.
An Edinburgh study shows that there is no reliable link between pains and aches in the legs and varicose veins.

And much surgery may have little beneficial health effect.

The Edinburgh University researchers say many people complain of pains and aches, believing this will help them get surgery when their main reason for wanting it is cosmetic.

More than 50,000 varicose vein operations are carried out in England and Wales every year at a cost of between £400m and £600m.

Varicose veins have been linked to a number of symptoms, including swelling, itchy legs, cramps and heavy limbs.

The presence of one or more of the symptoms is an important factor in whether doctors will suggest surgery.

But the researchers say little work has been done on the link between symptoms of vein disorders and disease.

Aches and pains

They studied 1,566 people aged 18 to 64. They found that women were much more likely than men to complain of aches and pains in their legs although men were more likely to have varicose veins.

Women most commonly complained of aching in their legs, while men complained of cramps.

In men, only itching was significantly linked to varicose veins while in women symptoms of stress, heavy limbs, aching and itching all indicated varicose vein problems.

The researchers found, however, that the symptoms were very common in people who did not have varicose veins and that they increased with age.

Writing in the British Medical Journal, they say: "Although tens of thousands of varicose vein operations are performed in the United Kingdom each year, the scientific basis for this activity is lacking."

They say there is little evidence to show a link between the symptoms and varicose veins and that operating on varicose veins improves the symptoms.

"It is therefore unsurprising that funding bodies in the United Kingdom are becoming increasingly reluctant to pay for the surgical treatment of venous disease," they write.

They suggest that surgery should be targeted at those most likely to benefit from it.

This can be discovered, they say, by taking a careful clinical history and examination of the patient.

Varicose veins are caused by a weakness in the walls of veins which caused the veins to swell.

The condition is usually inherited and is most prevalent in Europe and North America.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/272533.stm

« Last Edit: 07/06/2008 17:56:35 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Andrew, do you realise that anyone from whom you might seek funding to look at this will probably put your name in a search engine? When they come up with stuff like "First of all. You are not working against gravity when you pick up the book on earth." they are just going to throw your aplication in the bin.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Karen W.

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Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Karen thank you for this post. And thank you for trusting me enough to try Inclined Bed Therapy for yourself.

What you have just stated poses no problem to my own theory on the way circulation works with gravity. However it does pose some serious problems for the current literature that need to be addressed asap. Your own observations are as we know merely anecdotal evidence, even though we know you are giving a true account of what you witnessed. Particularly with the re-emerging veins on sleeping horizontal again. Add to this the fact that you have never given anyone a reason on this forum to doubt your integrity and you are respected by everyone here, your post may not get ignored quite as much as mine do.

The oedema relief conflicts hugely with current physiology because according to it your legs should have swollen rather than the observed reduction you witnessed. Now if you think about what you have written the answer as to whether it was IBT or diuretics lies with your observations while sleeping flat. So did your swelling begin to gradually return along with the return of the varicose veins?

1.   You observed a reduction in pressure inside the varicose veins. So let us assume that the entire venous return has now a modified pressure inside the veins so that it has reduced significantly compared to the surrounding tissue pressure, which as you know makes the skin a tight as a drum when it is swollen.
2.   Oedema happens because the pressure inside the veins is higher than the surrounding tissue so fluid moves from the veins into the surrounding tissue causing the familiar swelling.
3.   When your varicose veins shrunk it was because the pressure that was pushing them out had reversed to a pressure pulling them in. This would inevitably reverse also the flow of tissue fluids back into the veins and into the main circulation where the salts would be excreted in the urine after filtration.
So over several months the density of your blood and more importantly the density of the tissue fluids would gradually return to normal.


Nevertheless we still need to conduct a controlled study in order to confirm what you and others have witnessed is not just a mere coincidence but something that tells us a lot about the way solutes change pressures inside the vascular and arterial network that circulates.

Now we need more people who will test this so rather than have an operation why no try this first and report your findings to us on this thread?

Andrew K Fletcher

Andrew I have been meaning to get back to you on this point.. When I first raised the head of my bed I noticed nothing except I seemed to breath a bit better but it was still hard..< but after several months, My varicose veins faded out and became smooth with no bulges I have about 3 or for on my right leg only. right to the left below my kneecap.. Just about 6 or 8 weeks ago, My bed came down to put on a head and foot board, It is still flat as the bed is being worked on my frame was to wide for my bed.. so I have lowered it back down.. I noticed that within these few weeks my varicose veins have come back and they are bigger then they were.. I am sleeping up right in a chair for now as laying back is difficult to breath I am sitting upright in my living room chair!

It really did help to have the bed inclined as far as the varicose veins. The swelling was another story.. I could not tell because I am on so many diuretics for the water retention.. so I don't know which one was the reliever!

« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 09:42:54 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Karen W.

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I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edma back in my limbe again with the return of the bed and my recentposition in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occassional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... justy the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a strtched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but  I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

 When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor  when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline OldDragon

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Guess no one here will admit to having varicose veins. So not much chance of getting anyone to test the inclined bed therapy and disprove or prove what I have stated here either. Which is a crying shame when we are supposed to be interested in science.

If it's of any use to you, I have varicose veins and don't mind admitting it. :) (Not just in my legs, either. ;) ) I also have a history of phlebitis, too. (Which some seem to think should be 'fleabit-us', as I've a couple of dogs who like to share sleeping arrangements with me. Lol)

You'd perhaps need to take a look at my thread at http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=15112.0 before deciding if I can be of use to you, and accept that I don't sleep in a bed but on a sofa with my back supported against the firm back of that, whilst various other bits get draped over cushions to remove pressure from pinching nerves in the spine. However, I don't think it would cause me too much of a problem to raise the head end of the sofa and give it a try... as long as my son does the raising and not me. Lol
« Last Edit: 14/06/2008 23:51:11 by OldDragon »
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Andrew, do you have a simpler write-up of the whole IBT-thing for the "non-scientist" simpler minds like mine?  [;)]
Reading this about oedema - a friend of mine has that in both legs and maybe she'd be willing to try if I can give her a simpler explanation and instruction?

(I really don't have varicose veins (yet?) - although I'm thinking of trying IBT for the old spine)

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3D7tBQfCxQ this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

 
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Quote
I am noticing however that my legs are tender up the shin bone and that there is mild edema even now with the dieuretics and no incline.. so I am experiencing some edema back in my limbs again with the return of the bed and my recent position in my chair.. I have been off and on in my chair for months but a body can only go so long in this position and then one needs to stretch out nice and flat and open up those bends at the hip from sitting upright all the time.. Thus the stretch out and occasional nights I migrate back to my bed knowing no sleep will come... just the stretch and relaxing... so I believe the incline allowed me more time in a stretched out position and my breathing was not quite as bad,,, but  I am not sure if that is from progression of the disease or the bed situation..

 When I stopped the incline I really noticed no real changes in the way I felt.. it was not for several weeks that I noticed small things bothering me that I had not noticed had gone away.. Like the bottom of my feet had stopped hurting on the incline... it was easier to get out of bed and walk without them hurting.. The soreness in my calves went away and one big thing I was not having as many bouts with the restless leg syndrome on the incline and I have had many actually an increased amount of episodes of that since returning to flat and sitting up folded in half! LOL.. So there is also another plus...

I will return to that position upon repair of my bed but need to buy a stool to mount my bed! LOL... It is difficult for me to get into the inclined bed as I am already a short girl! I have to elevate one hip at a time to get on the bed and my feet dangle six or more inches from the floor  when I finally get onto the bed. I feel like Lilly Tomlin on the big big Story bed!


Thank you Karen for sharing your experience when you went back to your normal postural routines. Very interesting.

This again is a very important post because it shows that oedema had not only reduced but that since you have reverted back from IBT you are seeing an increase in oedema again and this shows that is was not the diuretics in this case that were making a difference because presumably you still take them?

The restless legs syndrome or Ekbom’s Syndrome has been reported by many to have completely resolved using IBT, only to return again when IBT is abandoned. My wife’s mum had this problem and was the first to report improvements when she came to Devon on Holiday and I tilted the bed in the caravan for her.

Many people who have used the inclined bed method fail to notice niggling pains and aches that vanish. This is because people seldom complain about feeling better. So it takes a period of 2-4 weeks of reverting back in order to realise how much benefit you were getting in the first place.

The most impressive case to date is a girl aged 12 with cerebral palsy, who is a young woman now became able to walk for the first time after around 8 months of IBT. I would love to be able to convince a hospital to conduct a study into CP using IBT, but alas I cannot find a method of moving this forward.

Andrew
« Last Edit: 03/08/2008 09:35:39 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Karen W.

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I am still on the diuretics...

I hope you do find away and that lots of people benefit.. Test test test! Good luck!

"Life is not measured by the number of Breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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http://www.farmfoods.co.uk/ the best source of Asparagus at 0.89p
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Offline OldDragon

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Re a simple explanation for IBT. google it using "inclined bed therapy" or "andrew k fletcher" this way your friend can find the right level of introduction. It is well worth investigating further as there are many reports and case histories to be found that will be of interest to you and your friend. You will also find some posts from people who are sceptics and the usual spoilers.

Naked Scientists is by far the best forum of its kind on the Internet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3D7tBQfCxQ this is a short video that is pitched about right by the television crew.

IBT may become uncomfortable at times, you may find you ache more in the first two weeks. Hang on in there as this means you are beginning to respond.

Your screen names, Old Dragon and Grumpy Old Mare don't appear to fit your personalities in the slightest?

 

Thanks for this and the Farmfoods link, Andrew. Have PM'd you information relating to my current situation with the varicose veins/oedema/IBS and that all seem interlinked in an ongoing cycle of medication related chaos! Feel free to quote anything you might wish from that.

Oh, believe me, 'Old Dragon' is very much an earned ID name! (Although friends rarely feel the flaming tongue of the dragon licking their lugs, it can happen! [;)] )

I'll refrain from commenting on Jutta's 'Grumpy Old Mare' ID, but can empathise should she feel grumpy when her back kicks off and she feels like sinking her teeth into certain people that lead with the chin! [;)]
« Last Edit: 24/06/2008 11:04:26 by OldDragon »
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Offline OldDragon

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All I need to get now are the blocks and someone to take the photos, then I'll be ready, but won't have much chance tomorrow as back in hospital for the day for a bone scan. Radioactive dye injected am, then the scan in the afternoon.

Got some fresh asparagus and ordered a case of tinned from the little local shop. Got the hydrometre, nettle tea, batteries - which someone with working fingers is going to have to fit into the scale for me! That after they have retrieved one from an obscure corner of the bathroon, 'cos I dropped it.  [::)]
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Lidl do asparagus in a jar which from memory is inexpensive. Fresh is amazing, frozen is pretty amazing also. Tinned and jarred has everything in it you need but lacks the must have more appeal.

Test urine with hydrometer before asparagus as this amazing vegetable will definitely change your urine and obscure any results:)

I have observed tar like urine produced while my Father was in hospital and we were advised that his kidneys had irretrievably broken down begin to produce clear urine several hours after his bed was tilted against the wishes of the doctors and nurses J

His legs were so swollen his pyjamas had been cut right up the legs which were so heavy with oedema I had trouble lifting them let alone dad. The nurses and doctors watched in amazement as all of the swelling vanished as quick as it had developed and all we did was tilted his bed. You would think that this would have stimulated some interest, yet as soon as my back was turned down came his bed and back in a comatose state he went. Eventually I stayed at his side to prevent these idiots from putting his bed down. 4 times I got dad out of a comatose state by tilting his bed. Each time it was induced by putting him horizontal and each time we had the bad news I am afraid message and rushed back to the hospital to find his bed had once again been put flat. Stupidity is too kind a word when the evidence is so blatantly obvious for keeping him tilted.  Dad was given metformin, a drug given to people with type 2 diabetes, despite my Father never having had diabetes and our family being eventually told that he was given this dangerous drug as a preventative measure just in case he ever developed diabetes?  I have not figured this logic out yet either.

Must stay focused on veins and oedema sorry about getting sidetracked.

Hopefully we should soon see some reports of shrinking veins and oedema. And we have already had it confirmed by Karen’s own experiences with IBT that both veins and oedema improved.

We do need around fifty people with varicose veins to test this in order to provide us with some statistics and photographic evidence. If we can show that veins do reduce by tilting the bed to a five degree head up tilt it will pose some serious problems for current physiology to deal with and if oedema goes down as predicted it will and has done for Karen we will have presented some serious problems for the current paradigm on circulation.

Of course this will still be considered as anecdotal evidence that will be requiring a controlled study or a double blind cross over study but at least we will have put the pilot study in place for this to happen. And more to the point will have shown others that there is no reason to risk dangerous ineffective surgical procedures when a couple of blocks under the bed can address the problem with oedema and varicose veins.

Perhaps then we may also be able to address why so many amputations are still being performed due to circulation failure. Perhaps hospitals may then begin to question how a totally untested flat bed model has been put in place to treat people with often life threatening circulation problems? In fact a flat bed has been shown to produce many serious health problems and has been used by NASA and the former Soviet Space programme to induce many of the harmful effects that affect astronauts in space travel. 


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Offline OldDragon

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I thought perhaps to turn the tinned asparagus into soup or add it to a chicken and rice dish I make to give some variety, but still be consuming it daily. Also stand-by supplies for when it's out of season or my freezer is full.

Aiming to head for the builder's merchants today to see if they can supply a suitable lump or length of wood to raise the sofa.

Not slept again since the few hours I got soaking in the bath yesterday morning and prior to the body scan. Between the injection of the radioisotope and the scan, I was asked to drink plenty and had some strong coffee, as I felt I'd likely nod off somewhere and fail to make it back to the radiology department on time otherwise. Also tried some mentally stimulating things - after another night without sleep, and in hindsight, I likely overdid both the coffee and brain stimulation. [:D]

I wonder if IBT will help to normalise my sleep patterns and improve the insomnia problems? I know that has to be taking its toll on my body.

Tasks for today:
1. Get the veins photographed.
2. Acquire some means of lifting the bed, as my son's visiting in the evening after work, so can do the heavy lift bit.

I really need now to get back into as normal a routine as possible work-wise, and so that I can both catch up and keep on top of everything as far as possible once the chemo cycles start. Yesterday morning I had to resort to taking 15mg of codeine phosphate to address the IBS sufficiently to attend the hospital appointment without discomfort and to try and slow my gut action a bit, as much as anything because the frequency of bowel movements have aggravated the haemorrhoids! Bleeding piles are the last thing I want, and especially as I've had to increase the amount of aspirin I'm taking at present to tackle inflammation in my back. There is obviously a fair bit of activity with bone breaking down and/or regenerating, but when I asked to see a copy of the images that had been printed onto a sheet of A4 paper, and out of curiosity, my request was refused. I was told the results would be given to me by my cancer consultant. Odd, as I'd not asked for the results, just to see the printed sheet, as I was viewing the reverse side of that at the time, so had little more than an outline and areas where the ink density was showing up well through the paper to identify some hot spots. Mmmmmmmm! It came as no surprise then that they wanted to take some ordinary x-rays of my lumbar spine; more so that they didn't have any on record in my file, but I was surprised that they weren't going to x-ray the thoracic region due to the recent flare there and because they already had one from Feb 2006.

The radiologist was more willing to allow me to view those lumbar spine x-rays. Even to discuss things evident there, and that were plain to see. She looked a little taken aback when I mentioned the degenerative evidence was hardly surprising after the SI joint had been locked up in the wrong position for 12 years... Could that be an omission from my notes, I wonder? I bet they mention poor posture as the cause to me at some point when giving me the results. [;)]

Whatever, it all does have bearing on varicose veins, because the whole package is interlinked with medication and these other conditions. Having not been to bed yet again, or even been able to lie down in comfort due to the signs that the x-ray positions I had to assume have triggered little flares that could kick off the muscle spasms again (please, God, no!) the oedema in my legs has also increased, and my calves especailly are very hard and tight. I have had a couple of couple cups of nettle tea, though, and hope that will help.

« Last Edit: 26/06/2008 08:12:51 by OldDragon »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Luke has reported improvements in his varicose veins on the psoriasis study in a very short period of IBT. http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?p=362067
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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You really need to be sleeping on a tilted bed, because having your upper body propped up against the arm of the couch even with it's tilted is still going to be placing a load on the spine, and then there is the problem with your feet pushing against the other arm of the couch and the constant pressure on the bottoms of your feet which needs to be avoided due to the possibility of pressure sores developing on your toes, soles and heels. Whereas titling a bed will do the opposite. So maybe when you feel you have become accustomed to the incline you may consider retiring to an inclined bed?

You asked me about Chemo and Radio Therapy and hair. Danny, who outlived his prognosis of less than a year to live by 10 years noted that after tilting his bed, his hair no longer fell out following chemo and radio therapy. Ironically his white blood cell count went down and his red blood cell count went up but that’s another study for another time.

Check out also milkthistle for protecting your liver and kidneys during radiation therapy.
« Last Edit: 26/06/2008 11:14:18 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline OldDragon

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This is all a very fascinating subject for me to study, Andrew, but to put your mind at rest, mine isn't the normal type of sofa with solid arms. I don't prop myself up on the arm at the head end, as that is a simple, metal arch, I just use pillow. There's nothing at the foot end for my feet to connect against, except perhaps a sleeping dog, so the feet would end up poking over the end into space if I slipped down the incline. It's the support the sofa back provides for my back, and to keep my sleeping on my side rather than rolling onto my back during sleep, that I rely on. It's also ample long enough for me to stretch out full length along, being a sofa bed, rather than a bed. I could pull it out to make it a flat, double bed, but by morning be unable to get out of it and be in agony. Perhaps, if there's a significant improvement resulting from inclining the sofa bed, I'll risk pulling it out flat one day in the future, but not at this stage or as my back is at present, okay? [:D]
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Great, I can now sleep at night myself instead of worrying about you and the dogs piled up at the bottom of a settee :)

It might interest you to know that this is normal for our family, we are continually snuggled up with 3 of our 4 bull terriers. The older one Nelly is an antisocial miserable old cow around the home but we still love her :) Shes great when shes outdoors. At 10 she managed to bag a magpie that came too close while out for a stroll (terrier type) Still one less magpie means lots more safe birds eggs.

Got a good feeling about you joining this study and know if it does not go to plan you will say so and if it does you will tell it how it is. Your friend should benefit from IBT greatly given her problems with nerve damage.
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Offline OldDragon

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I have a feeling about it too, Andrew. Borrowing from my goddaughter's vocabulary, when I first read this thread, I was 'prinkling'. [;)]

I have my grandson here now, so concentration is impossible! He's now trying to discover what the two levers do under my office chair, so I'm on tenterhooks in case my seat suddenly crashes down! Think he'll need to be a bit stronger yet to operate the levers but... Counted over 50 Whys, whats and hows already since he walked in through the door! Still lagging behind with answers for him as he speeds ahead with the questions, punctuated by tales and queries after the black dog's health, since the little golden one was ill and had to be put to sleep! He wanted a drink, so I offered him a sip of my 'Beekle juice' (beetroot juice), which he's never tried, so was suspicious of, unlike his father at that age, who would eat pickled beetroot (or onions) until the cows came home and then drink the vinegar as well. Instead he opted for my 'squirty bottle' of water, send a load down his neck and chest with a misfire at his mouth, so promptly upped his t-shirt and dried his chest on his granddad's trousers! Granddad (my ex) then threatened to leave him here with me, which would have delighted the young 'Mini-Mick-Taker' so grandma had to do a rapid fiery dragon act and herd the pair of them out of the front door!

What's the betting than little fellow wants to know why my sofa bed is inclined and when it finally is... Who would have though it so hard to get hold of a couple of 6" blocks of wood? It'll be easier around here to find an old length of railway sleeper and cut that to size... and I just might know where one of those is...

Be seeing you!

BTW, the Grumpy Old Mare is moving house, so may be missing for a couple of weeks and until she has her internet connection sorted at the new location.  [:)]
« Last Edit: 26/06/2008 19:59:41 by OldDragon »
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Offline OldDragon

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Progress Report:

Someone had pinched that railway sleeper!  [::)] (It would have been a swine to extract anyway, and I think it must either have gone or been buried when a JCB was working in the area recently.)

I have ordered a pair of wooden lifts to be made by probably the only place around here willing to make them as a one off item, and at a price I'd rather not afford, so Mike has kindly offered to put his money where my mouth is. (This probably in return for resisting the temptation to remove or otherwise alter his scalp in the recent challenge.) [;D] I am told by the managing director of the company, in person, that they will be ready next Wednesday. (That'll be £30 per pair, Mike, and that's for the soft wood ones, so if you want hard wood ones... might I suggest you or Mig saw a couple of your oak logs to size?)

Photos: (Be warned, these are not a pretty sight!  [;D] )


Left Inside Leg - showing affected veins and a degree of oedema present together with the depression left in that from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.


Right upper inside leg - difficult to see the veins due to the current level of oedema. The marks showing in that represent having been wearing knee length socks.



Right ankle and lower leg, again showing a measure of oedema from wearing trews with elasticated bottoms.

Varicose veins not shown: Haemorrhoids.

History:


The varicose veins on my right leg began to develop following a riding accident when aged 16 years (August 1968) and after being trampled by a young pony whilst training for a career in the equestrian industry. Although not easy to identify, there is still a horseshoe shaped depression in the lower calf region and between the two main areas affected. The upper area has been affected on numerous occasions by phlebitis and, possibly, by cellulitis. (Different doctors, different diagnosis - each prescribed the same anti-biotic on each occasion, with was successful in treating it. I will confirm the name of that anti-biotic if/when I can access my medical records.) At the time of the riding accident, some neurological damage occured and resulting in a loss of sensation to the right big toe. This was finally and fully restored after approximately 4-5 years.

The varicose veins on the left leg and mid-calf region have gradually developed with the onset of middle age.

The haemorrhoid problem can be traced back 30 years (1978) to pregnancy and the birth of my son in 1978, and these have been an ongoing problem, and especially acute when affected by IBS, which is largely controlled by diet unless the need to take medication causes an impact on the system, affecting the frequency and consistency of bowel movements.

The oedema varies according the what exercise is possible at a given time, and whether or not, often severe, periods of insomnia occur, and/or whether it is possible at any given time to rest with the weight off the legs.

Current Weight: 15st 2lbs (212lbs) following breast cancer surgery and full left axillary lymph node clearance operations. (Pre-operative  weight: 14st (196lbs.) )
« Last Edit: 26/06/2008 20:10:39 by OldDragon »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Thanks for the photographs, which are very useful. These show predominantly thread veins, which are not swollen like varicose veins. The vein on the back of your calf is a varicose vein but is probably obscured from view by your oedema. The oedema on the other hand should be easier to determine improvements or indeed the reverse.

Have you been advised to raise your legs to address the oedema and varicose veins? This is the usual advice people are given by their doctors, nurses and therapists.

Your current blood pressure stats might prove to be valuable also if you have them as this should alter too and should be monitored. Your GP might be interested in what happens with regards to BP.

The Following 2 photographs were taken 5 days after IBT. I have added them to this post so they can be compared more easily on the same page.



« Last Edit: 08/07/2008 08:24:09 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline OldDragon

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Thanks, Andrew. Actually, the photos don't show clearly how prominant and swollen the ones just below my right ankle are in reality. The dark spots usually stand out about 1/4" from the rest of my skin. Those below the right knee, when the oedema isn't obscuring them also, are varicose, trust me! Lol

I have been told to put my feet up in the past, but not necessarily to raise them at an angle. Just to take my weight off them, and not to sit at the PC etc for too long a period without taking a break and walking around to help the circulation. All very well when I can, and I do tend to do that naturally, but of late, yes, I've been sitting too long in one position, and without sufficient breaks. [::)]

Will add the BP Stats later and once I have stopped rushing around feeding critters and dealing with chaos here.
« Last Edit: 27/06/2008 22:06:08 by OldDragon »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Hate to be a pain in the ass but could you measure your legs in order to determine how swollen they are as this will help to see how the swelling is responding or not to IBT.
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Offline OldDragon

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No problem, Andrew. [;)]

Left mid calf: 45cms

Right mid calf: 43cms

These measurements taken after assisting the vet to examine (including internally); inject and tube a two years old pony with gas colic; getting head butted in the left breast (yeah, right on the op site/healing scar); and generally being thrown around a stable! [:)] Somehow I think today is not a good day to record blood pressure! Just been back to check the said 'sick pony' before vet phones me back, in case she has deteriorated and we need to consider euthanasia. Said 'sick pony' has now rearranged the stable furniture, kicked the water bucket to bits, done her percussion practice for my amusement all around the kicking boards and doors and farted directly into my face! I was supposed to listen and check her for gut movement, and check her pulse points, and the colour of her gums etc. The gums looked okay when she was attempting to take my hand off and I would say taking her pulse would be a waste of time right now, and until she's ceased the tantrum or circus act! LOL

Not sure what the vet will make of it when she calls, but unless she's eaten locoweed, I'd say she was clearly feeling better, and I'm not about to risk my neck further by scrabbling around looking for fresh bits of dung in the shavings with her throwing tantrums like that! She actually reminds me a bit of the pony that trampled me that time, although that one turned out to have a brain tumour, this one's just a sassy madam feeling better after a colic bout... I take it you agree re. the blood pressure? [;D]


BTW, what you said about the bladder/oedema - granny was sucking eggs as a toddler - aye, and squatting in the corners of stables every few minutes when she wasn't peeing herself trying to get out of the way of the flying hoofs! Lol [;)]
« Last Edit: 29/06/2008 02:57:53 by OldDragon »
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Offline OldDragon

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Andrew, further to our discussons re. oedema and nettle tea/asparagus detox, I thought you might like to know the current measurements of my calves.

Left mid calf: 42cms (Down from 45cms.)

Right mid calf: 42cms (Down from 43cms.)

And this is before raising the bed for the IBT! When last measured for the purpose of buying a pair of half-chaps a couple of months ago, each calf measured 38cms.

Tomorrow I will see if I can get into my wellies again.
« Last Edit: 30/06/2008 02:37:59 by OldDragon »
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Offline OldDragon

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Just a quick update - both calves have gone down now to 41cms.

Checked my BP earlier and that was 142/84 and pulse rate was 85; respiration 10 per min.

Thought to check it again after sitting here a while doing nothing more than typing. Shocked to see it is now 158/91 and my pulse 79. Respiration still 10 per minute.

Body fat now showing a horrendous 49.6%; Body Water 35.1% and body muscle 47.3%!

Can anyone explain how these machines are supposed to work? How can one end up with a total percentage that exceeds 100%?

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