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Author Topic: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?  (Read 36340 times)

Michael L

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« Reply #25 on: 17/09/2009 06:32:11 »
I am trying to affiliate myself with people like you here to develop maybe not perpetual motion but something close to develop electricity, there are hundreds of ideas already in existance but not much on the market, perhaps I can intrigue someone to get in touch with me to help me develop further my ideas
 

Mike

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« Reply #26 on: 14/10/2012 20:20:48 »
So... I understand how all the static magnets behave. What I don't understand is how can this:

work?
Considering the friction and air drag, this fan shouldn't be working. Yet it does.
 

amster

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« Reply #27 on: 22/02/2013 20:45:08 »
I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?
 

malaki

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« Reply #28 on: 15/01/2014 22:05:16 »
I believe the magnetic force is caused by the accumulation of the aligned atoms within the magnet.  these aligned atoms have electron 'clouds' which are polarized (north/south).  the electrons are essentially 'speeding' around each atom (more or less. i don't feel like getting into quantum physics at the moment) creating and electron field or cloud.  when all the atoms within a material are aligned with one another, the electron fields are shared as a common whole, more or less.  electricity and magnetism are two aspects of one whole, the photon.  as electricity flows, a field of magnetism is produced around it, and vise versa.  so basically, the atoms all align, therefor creating one large electric flow of sorts, and thereby creating one large shared, magnetic field.  So, basically what i'm trying to say is that the magnetic force itself  comes from the nucleus of the atom, holding the  electrons in orbit, compiling the fields together, creating a magnetic force.  essentially, it's powered by nuclear force.  electromagnetic force, and strong and weak nuclear forces (which bind the atom together) are all different representations of the photon.  so the answer is basically that the magnet gets its power from the universal energy that binds all things together, the same source that causes fission and explosions, and chemistry, and teddy bears, and the sun, and...carpet ants.  just another form of the energy, condensed into a specific orientation, combination, variation, etc ( you get the point i'm sure) to come together to form what we call a magnet with it's magnetic force.  I hope that helps.
 

curiouskid

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« Reply #29 on: 21/08/2015 07:10:41 »
if it is due to electricity in a factory then the electric energy must be constantly converted into magnetic energy. conversion of electric energy into other forms of energy takes place naturally only when the conductor has some amount of resistance to electric current. is this even true that electric energy is being the source of magnetic energy? if yes, does it mean that if the circuit has zero resistance it will not have the electric energy converted into magnetic energy and, as a result, will have no magnetic property?
 

Dendric

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« Reply #30 on: 23/10/2015 16:10:23 »
It is a cop-out to avoid the obvious fact that magnets do work as they act against gravity or forces that try to push them together or pull them apart. Newton's laws, Maxwell's 4 equations (edited by others from his 20 quaternion equations), and Lenz's law are not inviolate and represent distorted incomplete understanding of magnetic fields and EM. Tesla knew otherwise, as have and do many others that learn to think for themselves rather than accept dogma.
 

Offline Dreamer

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #31 on: 02/03/2016 08:20:37 »
I m not a smart guy but I do have imagination. I believe that we will soon be capable to travel on space time “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” .by Albert Einstein 
I think that the humanity is like a piece of metal on a large magnet, where, we are being pull down by gravity. The same way with our planet Earth that it being pull dawn by the gravity of the Sun and the Sun by another superior gravitational force.
When, we get to the point in which we are capable of building and space ship that could create a gravitational force strong enough to push the Earth gravitational force, the same way the earth pushes the Sun we are going to be traveling on space time. (Sun’s gravity +( - ( + Earth gravity)) +( - ( + artificial gravitational force  + mc˛)) )…A magnet its capable to create + and - witch it creates a gravitational force in a small scale.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2016 08:29:59 by Dreamer »
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #32 on: 02/03/2016 08:27:41 »
I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?

Energy is force x distance moved. If the lower magnet doesn't move, no energy is being expended.

Consider replacing the upper magnet with a piece of string - is there any energy input whilst  the lower magnet is stationary?
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #33 on: 02/03/2016 09:41:08 »
Quote from: amster
I still don't get it. Suppose we had a weight on one magent that was suspended below another magnet and the weight was just enough to keep the weight suspended, but to keep the magnets apart. There must be some energy being expended to keep them in this position?

Perhaps you are thinking of a human treading water, or a helicopter hovering?

In these cases, your hands (or the helicopter rotor blades) are pushing down on the water (or air), exerting a force. This force is exerted over a distance, and this takes energy.

This is all horribly inefficient - if you wanted efficiency, you would only swim in shallow water where you could stand up, and you would leave your helicopter parked on a high hill.

But the magnet does not move, and so does not consume energy to stay in place.

(With most magnet structures, the hanging magnet is unstable - any small movement of the air might move them slightly closer, and they will immediately stick together. Any small movement apart and they will fall apart. So you probably would need an active control system to stabilize it, which consumes some energy.)
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #34 on: 02/03/2016 15:06:04 »
In magnetic iron, the outer most elections of the iron atoms, will align with the same spin. Same spin electrons repel each other. This will not allow the magnetic fields of the individual electrons to cancel, but rather it increases the magnetic potential of the electron grouping. This is the potential energy behind the magnet. This electron configuration within magnets is stable at level of the iron atom. However, it contains residual potential energy; magnetic, since this is not the lowest possible way to arrange these electrons in terms of energy.

If we heat a magnet, activation energy can be added to the electrons, so they can climb the energy hill and then lower potential by assuming a lower energy arrangement of the electrons. This involves opposite spin electrons which attract and cancel their magnetic fields. This type of iron will not show any magnetism.

In the diagram below, which is used for chemical reactions, but also applies to any movement between stable states of matter, the magnetic iron would on the left. It is higher up the hill (reactants) than the plateau on the right (product). It occupies a stable plateau, but with lingering energy potential. This is sort of unique in the sense we can see this lingering potential as magnetism. Heating will push it up the hill and once at the top, it freely slides down into the more stable non-magnetic plateau.

We can also go the other way; right to left or non-magnet to magnet,  by adding energy, such as electricity, to push the electrons up the hill from right to left. Once the electrons reach the top off the hill, they will assume the stable magnetic plateau, since this is more stable with energy environment of electricity. 

 

Offline Villi

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #35 on: 01/07/2016 07:16:14 »
Magic. Obviously.
 

Offline William McC

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #36 on: 18/09/2016 03:32:56 »
These replies all seem to have come from a textbook which was written by someone who reads textbooks. The "irrational" mind would serve to at least stimulate here. Is it possible that our definition of "work" may be flawed. Is it possible that merely "acting" on a body, either in motion or at rest, does indeed constitute work?  Is it possible that the energy is actually input into the magnet at a rate equal to the energy "lost". Is it possible that we humans have all the answers regarding physics, and no modification to what we "know" will ever be made? Is it possible that man cannot and will not ever "fly like a bird"? I think we had all better preface our statements with "I am told" or "I read" until we actually figure out some of our other seemingly unexplained mysteries, like where 75% of the matter (energy) in the universe resides.

Even the manufacture of gasoline and diesel is just a circular perpetual motion operation in itself. They use coal to take hydrogen from water steam actually, and then reclaim the carbon dioxide created during the operation, and re-burn the carbon monoxide for heat to sustain the reaction. They need a constant supply of coal and water, however in the end they end up with a lot high BTU fuels that are then burned and create water and carbon dioxide. The trees use the carbon dioxide and grow, and we take the wood and can make man made coal from the trees or corn or any source of carbon.

A helicopter hovering above the ground creating air pressure under the rotor and a vacuum above the rotor, burns a lot of fuel to do so. Why? Because it is fighting a constant force of gravity, which we know exists as a force that we can measure. So if a magnet can repel and levitate from another magnet on the ground, and stay aloft it is fighting the force of gravity constantly with a created sustained magnetic field, not actual material like a spring would be using. People have built some cool perpetual motion devices using magnets, they are just for the demonstration of perpetual motion though not for practical power. They do it by cutting or pulsing the magnetic field, in this way you can create constant movement with magnets.

The voice coil in a speaker does something similar.

Sincerely,

William McCormick



 

Offline William McC

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #37 on: 18/09/2016 05:13:18 »
I was taught that magnets harness the ever present ever in motion ambient radiation. Magnets that are joined at opposite poles, do not attract one another, because our universe was designed without attraction forces. The magnets are pushed together by ambient radiation. Between the magnets a flow is setup from one magnet to another, and if you have ever put a short piece of hose up to a similar piece of hose that is flowing water, you can note a strange occurrence. As the short piece of hose moves closer to the hose spewing water, the small piece of hose is suddenly apparently pulled to the hose spewing water. In reality the water exiting the short piece of hose being moved closer to the hose spewing water, is pushed to the hose spewing water, by pressure at the exit point of the small hose.

Magnets work the same way, they create a constant flow of particles of electricity. If you ever doubt perpetual motion, get two large aluminum plates with a piece of thin glass between them, and lay the wires from a magneto that uses permanent magnets to generate electricity on one of the plates and give it a little spin. Measure the output and declare your wrist or the magneto perpetual motion.

Sincerely,

William McCormick
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #38 on: 18/09/2016 06:06:22 »
The sub-atomic world is frictionless and can spin forever. This is the source of magnetic energy.
.
 

Offline chris

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #39 on: 18/09/2016 09:46:26 »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #40 on: 18/09/2016 11:19:05 »
Quote from: William McC
The magnets are pushed together by ambient radiation.
This sounds like an explanation for the Casimir effect; it doesn't sound like an explanation for magnets.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #41 on: 18/09/2016 14:20:38 »
It's a strange thread this one. It's like asking "What is the power source for a shelf?"
"I can put a rock on a shelf, and it seems as if it will stay there forever with no sign of any power source. ".

Why would anyone think it needs power?
 

Offline William McC

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #42 on: 18/09/2016 20:54:34 »
It's a strange thread this one. It's like asking "What is the power source for a shelf?"
"I can put a rock on a shelf, and it seems as if it will stay there forever with no sign of any power source. ".

Why would anyone think it needs power?

Yet go look at your shelves, in the closet and see if they are slightly dipped down in the center. Over time many shelves give way. The shelve is an electrical effect according to my teaching. I have seen the metal holders for ceiling fans over time slowly bend downward. There is a constant force from gravity that must be fought in order to hold something still. The springs on cars are constantly failing ever growing weaker and weaker.

I can levitate a block of aluminum with an AC electromagnet, and prove it requires energy to levitate it. I attached an image and this below is the whole link.

http://www.rockwelder.com/History/WorldsFair/WF.htm

Willam McCormick
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #43 on: 18/09/2016 21:51:36 »
Quote from: William McC
go look at your shelves, in the closet and see if they are slightly dipped down in the center
It is true that many macroscopic systems slowly decay over time.
- However, many atomic-level systems (defined by quantum theory) do not decay over time. The atomic-level magnetic field of unpaired electrons is one such system
- This is because macroscopic systems have many adjacent states, and they can easily decay from one to another, increasing entropy. Quantum systems have few adjacent states (especially if they are already in the ground state), and so they can continue for long periods without decay.

A macroscopic permanent magnet does lose strength over time, due to temperature and vibration.
- This occurs via the growth and migration of magnetic domains which oppose the general magnetic field of the permanent magnet
- However, the underlying quantum magnetic field of the atom remains just as strong (although perhaps reversed in direction).

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism#Origin_of_magnetism
 
 

Offline David Reichard

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #44 on: 21/09/2016 06:09:01 »
JP'S answer seems very helpful to me.Electrons are magnetic dipoles,termed spin,if I am not mistaken.If we use a magnetizer to force all the electron dipoles to line up and make a big magnet as a group,they are like a stretched spring held at both ends.As long as it is held still,no more energy is needed to be addedTthe magnetizer added enough.The magnetic force is constant,No work is done.However if the electrons' alignments are allowed to go back to random,the stored energy of the magnetizer is released.Scientists are now intensely engaged in working with magnetic phenomenae and spin to create new effects.Electrical motors are actually using electromagnetic effects to produce motion,and the energy used is electrical energy,doing work.Friction and other losses keep a motor running on just still magnetic fields from staying in motion or doing work.It was the idea of perpetual motion.
 

Mika Loiselle

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« Reply #45 on: 23/09/2016 01:50:11 »
Is the repulsive force of the electromagnet as strong as the attractive one???
 

Offline Alex Siqueira

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #46 on: 01/10/2016 01:19:58 »
 We humans tend to always consider mechanic energy as when refering with anything that is made of matter like a mechanic engine, but from a certain point of view, one has pushed two pieces of magnets one towards the other, but one magnet never has trully pushed one away from the other, they are only the catalistor for a field, magnetic field...
  Wherever lock on two magnets that are repeling one the other from an apropriated distance, now what do you have, a mechanic "system", trully there seems to be no motion, but there is, the particles are not stationary or static as the whole seems to be, the fields are constantly interracting one with the other, so one could say that the constant repeling of the two magnets are producing a inconstant magnetic field, that on itself has the "potential" to infinite energy...
  The elephant on the room is refering to "electrical energy" or any sort of energy witch we humans could harvest, isn't the topic subject but is the final product of the search...

 Well to achieve a practical way to structure such convenience fields on a practical way that would allowd us to harves that into motion, thus electrical energy, one should set mobile magnetic fields from outside in the static repelant one...
 We would want to harves the energy potential from that both repelant static magnetic fields, for that we need to give it "spin", not on itself, we need to cheat, keeping the magnets on the interior stationary repeling themselves just in order to produce a considerable repelant magnetic field, than on the exterior one should set a external layer os mobile magneticfields that when in motion would convert, not the "magnetic repulsive forces" but more like reshape the result, the repelant field, changing it from balanced to something resabling a hurricane, literally use the external magnetic rims to disrupt the center forcing it to take such shape, from that point on, we would not be harvesting the energy of the original static magnetic fields, witch we couldn't, one would be "shomehow"(trough vibration or high frequency), harvesting the potential of that new field, its hard to explain without the awnser of where does this forces come from, but surely the magnetic force is provenient from motion, is we can't see, means only that is happening in lower scale...
  In resume the trick would not how to harvest the energy from two magnetic field that are repepling one the other, but instead, how to restructure that very fields to be able to allowd a proper device to harvest the magnetic motion...

what cames to my mind is in principle a stationary internal magnetic system formed by a circle of repelant magnetics, and on the surrownding areas a spiral, not a complete or perfect spiral, but in purpose, incomplete spiral, like a coil, that is static around the inner ring, untill we start to set the inner ring to spin (the magnets not the field, it is still static). Such spining would force the "magnetic coild" to move up and down really fast, form that point on, all one would need is some sort of membranes that would be able to harves this very motion, converting it into electrical energy...

 The not coerent possibility is to keep the inner ring completly stationary and produce the magnetic coild using perfectly alignets cilindrical magnets that would set themselves in motion, again up and down, just by being constantly repeling themselves, side by side, with the inner ring, little pushes that would generate a considerable motion, altough I'm not sure that his is possible, without a external source of impulse power, like the first one does require to set itself in motion...

 For the last consideration pick up the image of such coild that is made from numerous cilindrical magnets, and prolong the coild lenght in order to form a perfect circle, inside of it set the conductive wire, and on the laterals of this circle set two spiral magnetic coils, just like above, that are working using the metod describled above, this wouldn't be a true infinite energy system, there is no such thing, but it would be more a trick, two small spiral sources, seting on motion another system, that is for it's turn, harvesting the "potential" of infinite energy that those two spiral sources have on themselves, but could never achieve on their own... For any purpose, one does not need to try to harvest the energy on the repulsive forces, there is non to be, one need to find a practical way to harvest their potential to, compensating eachother limitations by forcing one to interect with the other trought another one, and this one, would be trully infinite energy, "as long as the others are still spining on themselves"
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #47 on: 01/10/2016 11:11:24 »


I can levitate a block of aluminum with an AC electromagnet, and prove it requires energy to levitate it.


Willam McCormick
Why do you think it is helpful to show that you can hold up a block of metal inefficiently?
 

Offline William McC

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #48 on: 01/10/2016 13:23:02 »


I can levitate a block of aluminum with an AC electromagnet, and prove it requires energy to levitate it.


Willam McCormick
Why do you think it is helpful to show that you can hold up a block of metal inefficiently?

It is not inefficient to use an electromagnet at all. It is rather efficient, in fact they are using repulsion bearings in motors because it is so efficient. The mechanical bearing uses more energy than the electromagnetic bearing.

If we were talking about the security locks on doors that use steel instead of aluminum for the target of the magnetic field, and I hold up a piece of steel against the force of gravity, as it is used to keep bank security doors closed, because it is rather efficient, would there still be an argument?

Permanent magnets are creating a magnetic field constantly, they are redirecting flows of ambient radiation constantly. If you can flux or pulse the magnetic field of a permanent magnet you can cause continues movement of objects. People have done it but there is just not enough power to make it useful as a device in our lives. Which shows just how efficient AC magnetic fields are.

Sincerely,

William McCormick
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #49 on: 01/10/2016 16:58:00 »
Using an ac electromagnet to hold something up when yo could use a shelf is inefficient.
The use of electromagnetic locks is nothing to do with efficiency and a lot to do with remote operation.

Do yo have evidence for this "Permanent magnets are creating a magnetic field constantly, they are redirecting flows of ambient radiation constantly."
 or is it just more of the woowoo that you keep posting? I guess I will find out when, like so much of your stuff, it gets dumped into the "that can't be true" stream.
 

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Re: QotW - 07.12.09 - Power Source for Magnets?
« Reply #49 on: 01/10/2016 16:58:00 »

 

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