# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What particle carries magnetic field?  (Read 40183 times)

#### yor_on

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #25 on: 14/11/2008 00:38:37 »
Good one, but nah:)
The light still only has 'momentum'

The box though, if clad in a totally reflective material, will exhibit an added mass.
But it sure phreaks me out:)

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #26 on: 14/11/2008 12:34:06 »
Good one, but nah:)
The light still only has 'momentum'

The box though, if clad in a totally reflective material, will exhibit an added mass.
But it sure phreaks me out:)
A couple of photons not travelling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:

E2 = (Mc2)2 + (cP)2

E = energy of the two photons' system = E1 + E2 = 2E1, with two equal photons, where E1 is a single photon's energy (energy is additive).
M = mass of the two photons' system.
P = momentum of the two photons' system = P1 + P2 where P1 and P2 are the momenta of the  photon 1 and 2, respectively.

A single photon's momentum is, in modulus: |P1| = |P2| = E1/c.

So, if the two photons are not travelling in the same direction:

|P| = |P1 + P2| < 2|P1| = 2E1/c

so

P2 = |P|2 < 4E12/c2   →   -P2 > -4E12/c2

(Mc2)2 = E2 - (cP)2 = (2E1)2 - c2P2 > 4E12 - c24E12/c2 = 0

so

(Mc2)2 > 0

that is:

M > 0.

So it's light which has mass when confined in a fixed space.

#### yor_on

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #27 on: 14/11/2008 15:25:50 »
lightarrow, are you referring to momentum as mass?
As that, as I see it, is what gives the box the added 'weight'
And do you see it as being 'invariant' mass?

You wrote 'A couple of photons not traveling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:'
If you by that mean that photons 'meeting' each other will, when treated as a 'whole system', take out each others momentum as seen inside that system?
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)
Ahh, a small Joke there...Innocent Sir, totally innocent I insist.

But yes that's true.
Rather elegant in fact:)
But doesn't that negate mass too then?
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 18:18:36 by yor_on »

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #28 on: 14/11/2008 20:24:21 »
lightarrow, are you referring to momentum as mass?
No.

Quote
And do you see it as being 'invariant' mass?
Exactly. Weird, isnt'it?

Quote
You wrote 'A couple of photons not traveling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:'
If you by that mean that photons 'meeting' each other will, when treated as a 'whole system', take out each others momentum as seen inside that system?
They can "meet" each other or recede.

Quote
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)

Quote
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)
Ahh, a small Joke there...Innocent Sir, totally innocent I insist.

But yes that's true.
Rather elegant in fact:)
But doesn't that negate mass too then?
Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 20:28:18 by lightarrow »

#### yor_on

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #29 on: 15/11/2008 09:56:32 »
Yes it's very weird.
Where does this 'transformation' take place?
And how can it do it.

Normally when you think of 'energy' or spacetime creating particles there has to be a lot of energy involved right, if we're not talking virtual partickles.
But here you just need to 'enclose' a photon, or if you like, wavepacket, oh ok, a lightquanta then, qubits? Ahhhhhh...(running away into the wilderness, while repetitively calling 'Glooria')
:)

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #30 on: 15/11/2008 13:28:30 »
Yes it's very weird.
Where does this 'transformation' take place?
And how can it do it.
Do you mean the "transformation" mass <--> energy?

Quote
Normally when you think of 'energy' or spacetime creating particles there has to be a lot of energy involved right, if we're not talking virtual partickles.
But here you just need to 'enclose' a photon, or if you like, wavepacket, oh ok, a lightquanta then, qubits? Ahhhhhh...(running away into the wilderness, while repetitively calling 'Glooria')
:)
About composed systems, for example an atom, you find that part of the energy (and so part of the mass) is present in the form of the field binding the electrons to the nucleus. About elementary particles we still don't have models (apart from string theory) describing them as made of some kind of confined fields. Just as curiosity, some times ago I saw a model of the electron as made of electromagnetic radiation interacting in a strange way with itself (the wave is "warped around" a small region of space, so that to canceal the magnetic field by destructive interference but not the electric field and so giving rise to the electric charge!) but it was just a speculation. (Now the author will write me and say "What speculation? It's a serious theory!"  ).

#### yor_on

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #31 on: 15/11/2008 16:42:02 »
Nope;)
He will write you and congratulate you to your show of common sense, as you now at last admit to his theory's inherent strength and beauty.
And wait until you see mine...

As an small appetizer I will confide in that it involve AVGP instead of a BB.
Yes A...V...G...P!!!

« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 16:46:05 by yor_on »

#### Soul Surfer

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #32 on: 16/11/2008 23:31:24 »
Lightarrow.  Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.

An interesting thought. Does the size of the fixed space matter.  Suppose our universe was a fixed space that confined the energy in the universe (like the inside of a black hole) could that mean that the total electromagnetic energy in the universe reperesented a significant effective mass?

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #33 on: 17/11/2008 13:31:57 »
Lightarrow.  Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.

An interesting thought. Does the size of the fixed space matter.  Suppose our universe was a fixed space that confined the energy in the universe (like the inside of a black hole) could that mean that the total electromagnetic energy in the universe reperesented a significant effective mass?
This is not bad too as thought  I suppose it should be so.

#### labview1958

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #34 on: 21/11/2008 00:19:03 »
My hunch is that mass bends space. A magnet has mass thus bends space. However if a North pole of a magnet is brought near another North pole, space is bend in a way as to "repel" them. Similarly if unlike poles are brought together space is bend another way as to "attract"

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #35 on: 21/11/2008 15:19:22 »
My hunch is that mass bends space.
Of course.

Quote
A magnet has mass thus bends space.
There are many things which have mass, not only a magnet: stones, trees, ants, you...Probably you intended to talk about "magnetic field"?

#### nicephotog

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #36 on: 23/11/2008 11:57:27 »
..."invariant mass?"... shell orbit level by charge...
Wave mechanics and Geometry!!!, my favourite, if i ever get out of the old kingdom and intermediate one for my Dingos which probably came from Ancient Chinese explorerers not Egyptian war dogs bred on another continent for Pharoah, i can have some mathematical fun not encryptive decyphering by block interpretations.
http://www.nicephotog-jsp.net/Dingone.pdf
http://www.awarenessquest.com/research.htm

#### yor_on

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #37 on: 26/11/2008 10:30:14 »
A V G P

Well, ah 'somebody' gave birth to our universe via it.
And indeed it was, and is, a very good party.
And thats the truth about AVGP:)
« Last Edit: 26/11/2008 10:37:13 by yor_on »

#### labview1958

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #38 on: 26/11/2008 13:23:36 »
I am implying a magnet of 1 kg.  bends space in a certain way. These bending is different from a  1 kg of non-magnet material.

#### lightarrow

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #39 on: 26/11/2008 15:01:38 »
I am implying a magnet of 1 kg.  bends space in a certain way. These bending is different from a  1 kg of non-magnet material.
So you are talking about the magnetic field, not the magnet.

#### Mark Tillotson

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #40 on: 04/06/2009 19:59:57 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit

Your problem is in assuming a magnetic field and an e-m field are separate things - they are not, electricy and magnetism are two aspects of the same "stuff" described by Maxwell's equations, and in quantum terms by QED (quantum electro-dynamics).  Photons are the force carrier.

However it is more illuminating I think to view magnetism as the relatavistic correction to electro-statics, as this is more intuitive than Maxwell's equations or Diracs (I'd imagine!).

If you have a wire with a current flowing, there are moving electrons and stationary positive charges - straightaway the Lorentz transformation will tell you that something interesting happens since the linear charge-densities seen by an observer depend on the velocity of the observer, and if the observer is charged, there will in general be "electro static" forces.

Even though the Lorentz corrections are tiny at the typical drift velocities of electrons in a typical wire, remember the amount of charge is vast (Faradays of charge) so that any minute imbalance in charge density between positive and negative will lead to a measurable force.

So what I'm really saying is that magnetism is reducible (in some sense) to electric fields plus special relativity.  There is no magnetism without moving charges (or changing electric fields).  The neat thing is that the magnetic effects can be described by a field abstraction.

#### kongkokhaw

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #41 on: 07/06/2009 14:36:23 »
Base on my understanding, particles are made of electric and magnetic field. This can be observed from the processes of pair production, annihilation, radioactive decay, collision of particles and etc. From these processes, matter and wave are interchangable. The ingredients of wave is electric and magnetic fields, hence, the ingredients of matters/particles are also the electric and magnetic fields.

Atom itself is not a stuffed or solid 'object', it is the magnetic and electric (M&E) fields in a different form that make up the volumetric size. the electric field corresponds to the charge of the particles. while the magnetic field corresponds to the quantized energy level of the particles. Figure below illustrates the structure of an atom.

Magnetic gauss line is the energy level of the atom, represented by n=1 and n=2. Electrons are orbiting on these quantized energy level. These quantized energy levels are the home of electrons.

For atom, the charge is defined as positive charge and it possesses different level of quantized energy line depending on the charges. For electron, the charge is given as negative charge. Electron is spinning at the speed of light, therefore, it has the smallest size in the category of particles.

In general, for a stable atom, electrons circulate surrounding the atom at different energy level. The base magnetic field of the atom is neutralised by the magnetic field generated by the moving/orbiting electrons. Hence, it is difficult to detect/measure the magnetic field of an atom.

In term of magnetic dipole moment, the spinning atom possesses an upward magnetic dipole moment. The orbiting electrons generate a downward magnetic dipole moment which neutralizes the upward magnetic dipole moment of the atom. Therefore, some atoms are neutral in magnetic dipole when both upward and downward dipole moments are equal. Figure below illustrates the balance of magnetic dipole moment of an atom with two electrons circulating around it.

The atom itself possesses an upward magnetic dipole moment, μa. The orbiting electrons produce magnetic dipole moment which is at the opposite direction, μe. The cancellation of upward and downward magnetic dipole moment makes the atom neutral in term of magnetism.

More descriptions and detail derivations are presented in this link:

Molecule is the combination of few atoms. Due to the quantum mechanics of atoms, molecule are able to form in various shapes, such as water molecule possesses 'V' shape. The quantum mechanics of water molecule is illustrated below.

The combination of hydrogen and oxygen atoms produces the principle orbital number of 3. This causes the angle between two hydrogen atoms to be 105 degree.

#### Vern

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##### What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #42 on: 07/06/2009 15:07:16 »
Quote from: kongkokhaw
Atom itself is not a stuffed or solid 'object', it is the magnetic and electric (M&E) fields in a different form that make up the volumetric size. the electric field corresponds to the charge of the particles. while the magnetic field corresponds to the quantized energy level of the particles. Figure below illustrates the structure of an atom.
You present interesting notions. It would be good if you could identify those places, if they exist, where you depart from established theory so that we could ponder it better and decide which version seems to satisfy the most observations.

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #43 on: 17/10/2012 09:11:36 »
Sorry Mark, should have responded to your description a looong time ago :) But yes, that's exactly how I understands it too, nowadays that is :) Magnetic fields are observer dependent. But then you have a permanent magnet, how do I describe that as observer dependent? And have a look at this one. Einstein Straightened Out.
=

And that title gotta be a little joke :)
On geometry and the way Einstein got his Relativity framework together
« Last Edit: 17/10/2012 09:21:09 by yor_on »

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##### Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #44 on: 22/10/2012 09:12:23 »
Base on my understanding, particles are made of electric and magnetic field. This can be observed from the processes of pair production, annihilation, radioactive decay, collision of particles and etc. From these processes, matter and wave are interchangable. The ingredients of wave is electric and magnetic fields, hence, the ingredients of matters/particles are also the electric and magnetic fields.

What a coincidence. Kong, are you still around? I'd like to ask you a few questions about double-slit experiment.

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##### Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #45 on: 22/10/2012 09:45:08 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit

All basic particles, like electron, positron, proton, neutron... including photons. It's usually called "magnetic moment", which is magnetic DIPOLE moment due to spin.

To be very specific, you could say a particle "carries" electric field or charge, but magnetic field is rather an effect of (charge) motion, not really an intrinsic property of a particle itself, like electric charge/field seem to be.

So, beside dipole magnetic moment due to spin there is also magnetic moment/field being formed around charge due to its spatial motion, and is directly proportional to velocity of the charge. This is known as Lorenz force or Ampere force. Note that if velocity is zero this magnetic field does not exist, which is why I say it's an "effect" rather than actual property of a particle itself.

There is this equation called Biot–Savart law that works equally well in electromagnetics just as in aerodynamics, so amazingly this photo bellow will too describes how this magnetic field due to moving charge "looks" like:

...it just happens to work the same way, go figure.
« Last Edit: 22/10/2012 10:05:33 by madus »

#### yor_on

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##### Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #46 on: 22/10/2012 10:24:57 »
If the idea of a permanent magnet being domains that are lined up in a same direction is correct, then it must be correct to assume that 'electrons' move too. That is if a magnetic field is 'observer dependent', which it indeed seems to be. You need those 'electrons' to change position in a orderly pattern in a permanent magnet to create that magnetic field being at rest with it.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #46 on: 22/10/2012 10:24:57 »