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Author Topic: Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?  (Read 33607 times)

Offline thedoc

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« on: 13/01/2010 16:26:31 »
During these cold winter months you might like to strap yourself into some lovely fluffy socks, perhaps that your granny made you at Christmas.  And now you can get special socks for donor organs and people with diabetes, according to a paper from Chemistry of Materials this week.
It’s not quite putting livers in jumpers and hepatic veins in booties but chemists this week have described how they’ve created a special fabric that can deliver nitric oxide to donor organs.
Nitric oxide is great in preventing damage to organs which aren’t getting enough oxygen.  It’s actually a molecule which many animal cells use to communicate with other cells.  And one of the tasks nitric oxide performs is as a muscle relaxant, which means it can dilate blood vessels and increase blood flow.  Actually, it’s one of the signalling pathways that Viagra capitalises on.
So this fabric contains zeolites which are molecular cages of aluminium and silicon oxides.  And those cages will soak up gas molecules like nitric oxide and then release them in a controlled manner.  The way they make the bandage fabric is to construct a water-repellant polymer, then embed some of these zeolites in it.  They can control how fast nitric oxide is released by making the polymer more or less water repellent.  So to get the nitric oxide flowing you just need to add moisture.
And the scientists working on this, Kenneth Balkus and Harvey Liu at the University of Texas, are solving a problem here that many have struggled with before in medicine.  It’s quite tricky to find reliable ways of storing and then delivering nitric oxide in a controlled manner.  Because, as with many good things, too much is toxic.
So apart from wrapping donated organs ready for transplantation, the zeolite fabric could be used for people with diabetes, in whom it’s been found that nitric oxide production is compromised. Wearing this fabric might increase blood flow in all sorts of extremities, and they could really benefit from some NO socks.
« Last Edit: 13/01/2010 16:42:39 by chris »


 

Offline BenV

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Re: Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #1 on: 13/01/2010 16:26:58 »
Thanks for spotting the typo RD - now fixed...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #2 on: 13/01/2010 19:23:13 »
"Actually, it’s one of the signalling pathways that Viagra capitalises on."
Where do you propose to wear these socks?
 

Offline chris

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #3 on: 13/01/2010 19:32:36 »
Very good!
 

Offline Bacon Wizard

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #4 on: 03/09/2010 22:14:05 »
How far is this along? Are such fabrics on the market yet? (Huge fan of the show here!)
 

Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #5 on: 04/09/2010 01:17:59 »
So you put these on your feet and the NO tippy-toes through the epidermis to work its pharmacological action all over your little piggies?  Now pull the other one. You wouldn't, by any chance, have something like a double blind randomized study to show how well these actually work?

I wonder what these happen to cost? As it happens my secret formula "Aztec Cactus Salve" has been previously shown to do just the same thing for $2 less as a serendipitous side effect of its miraculous powers to restore hair and banish wrinkles. Watch for the infomercial coming soon to a midnight cable TV program near you.
 

Offline Geezer

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #6 on: 04/09/2010 06:33:06 »
"Aztec Cactus Salve" has been previously shown to do just the same thing for $2 less

Gimme a break. Everyone knows Tincture of Moth Vomit is the only cure.

Forunately, I can supply it at a mere $19.95 for an entire microliter.
 

Offline Variola

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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #8 on: 04/09/2010 16:32:15 »
OK. Let's open this article and ask ourselves questions like real scientists would...

1. This is a news blurb in a publication of the American Chemical Society.
(a) Why is it not in a critically reviewed medical Journal?
(b) What do chemists know about wound healing or mice with diabetes?
(c) How did it come to be in this journal? (i.e. was it sent to them by some huckster, I mean "Marketing Consultant"?

2. The premise of this article presumes that NO gas freely passes thru the skin?
(a) If that is true, why do we need lungs?
(b) Why doesn't the Oxygen all leak out and we die of suffocation as we read this?
(c) Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

3. The only real therapeutic use of these stockings is in (possibly) treating diabetic foot ulcers.
(a) Would you put a pair of socks on an open foot ulcer ( In a diabetic with compromised healing in the first place!) and then lace up your shoes for a walk to the market?


Good news Mother! I met a man on the way to market and I have traded the cow for this pair of magic socks which will cure your diabetic ulcers!
« Last Edit: 04/09/2010 16:43:16 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #9 on: 04/09/2010 23:14:06 »
OK. Let's open this article and ask ourselves questions like real scientists would...

1. This is a news blurb in a publication of the American Chemical Society.
(a) Why is it not in a critically reviewed medical Journal?
(b) What do chemists know about wound healing or mice with diabetes?
(c) How did it come to be in this journal? (i.e. was it sent to them by some huckster, I mean "Marketing Consultant"?

2. The premise of this article presumes that NO gas freely passes thru the skin?
(a) If that is true, why do we need lungs?
(b) Why doesn't the Oxygen all leak out and we die of suffocation as we read this?
(c) Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

3. The only real therapeutic use of these stockings is in (possibly) treating diabetic foot ulcers.
(a) Would you put a pair of socks on an open foot ulcer ( In a diabetic with compromised healing in the first place!) and then lace up your shoes for a walk to the market?


Good news Mother! I met a man on the way to market and I have traded the cow for this pair of magic socks which will cure your diabetic ulcers!

Ok I will give it a go!

1)
a) I suspect because it has not undergone trials yet, so there is nothing medical to review.
b)Quite a bit, most chemists understand the basics of biochemistry.
c)Because it is a chemical materials journal, the authors proves they could incorporate a gas into a material.

2)
a) It does, it is very permeable and passes easily through membranes. Best guess is that when in the air NO takes on a different form and has to be processed, it is highly reactive with oxygen etc
b)Leak out of where???
c)Because most men don't wear socks on their knobs? Seriously I think viagra comes in at a different point in the pathway.

3)
a)Well the therapeutic use is another matter, but if it helps speed up healing I would give it a go.
 

Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #10 on: 04/09/2010 23:41:54 »
It just goes to prove the profound understanding my old man ( the door to door siding salesman ) had of the human mind. Some people were just plain born to be "fleeced". If those arguments seem sound to you, who am I to refute you  with tiresome questions - like whoever told you that fairy story about NO crossing the epidermis freely? I wonder if you would kindly oblige me with some sort of factual reference outside the realm of Science Fiction.

You know this could be my ticket to buying that villa overlooking the harbor in Korcula on the Adriatic riviera...it's obviously somebody's meal ticket.

*******************
I just goggled "transdermal NO" to check on this buncomb that transdermal absorbtion of NO exists outside of fairyland...Here's what I turned up...

(1) some bodybuilders peddling some kind of snake oil formulation guaranteed to turn you into another Hercules (results depend upon diet and exercise - go figure.)

(2) A chemist at the University of Akron, Ohio who is studying this using....

"Three diazeniumdiolates (formerly “NONOates”), including two water soluble compounds, (Z)-1-[N-(2-aminoethyl)-N-(2-ammonioethyl)amino]-diazen-1-ium-1,2-diolate (DETA-NO) and (Z)-1-[N-(3-aminopropyl)-N-(3-ammoniopropyl)amino]-diazen-1-ium-1,2-diolate (DPTA-NO), and one insoluble compound, DPTA-NO grafted to dextran microspheres (DPTA-NO–g-dextran) were used to transdermally deliver NO to rats. "

So if you are (a) willing to slather your tootsies with "diazeniumdiolates" and (b) you are a rat - then yes you could absorb NO through the skin of your feet.

So go know.










« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 02:14:17 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #11 on: 05/09/2010 10:31:06 »
Quote
   like whoever told you that fairy story about NO crossing the epidermis freely? I wonder if you would kindly oblige me with some sort of factual reference outside the realm of Science Fiction.

Yes I can, it was this chap:


http://www.sussex.ac.uk/biochemistry/profile2692.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nitric-Protocols-Methods-Molecular-Biology/dp/0896035379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283678331&sr=8-1

He is one of my lecturers and also a good friend, so I asked him.  If you look at his research( and book), you will find that his field is nitric oxide. Much as I would like to put my faith in your 'google search' I would trust the word of a researcher above that.
Next time you want to insult my intelligence by suggesting I am buying into fairy stories and patronize me by saying my posts are  science fiction, perhaps you might realise that I am a degree student, I am studying molecular medicine, I recently took modules taught by the above researcher on NO amongst other things, so you can kiss my a**.
 

Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #12 on: 05/09/2010 14:11:47 »
OK.Your prof is flogging a book on Amazon called "Nitric Acid Protocols". Oooooh! Shiny! But I'm from Missouri (or at least I drove thru it last June)


Now kindly show me a critically reviewed article in a reputable medical journal to support your frankly incredible claim that NO freely passes through the human epidermis.

Are you sure you're a graduate student? When I was in my graduate seminars in Pharmacology (back in the day) we learned how to support our arguments without inviting people to kiss our a**. The way we did that was to politely say, "show me the facts to support your most remarkable assertion." When they couldn't do that then they were fair game to be asked if they had recently visited fairyland and maybe had a toot with the little people.

In my experience people start in using profanity when their statements have been shown to be ridiculous twaddle--or they have a financial interest in some kind of junk they are trying to sell.

That wouldn't be you would it? So why not just use dat lil ol' cut and paste function and show us your proof the way real graduate students do?
 

Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #13 on: 05/09/2010 14:31:57 »
Quote
OK.Your prof is flogging a book on Amazon called "Nitric Acid Protocols". Oooooh! Shiny! But I'm from Missouri (or at least I drove thru it last June)
 

Not really, it happens to be a book he wrote. Oh an it is Nitric Oxide Protocols, not acid. Might suggest he knows a thing or two about NO though, certainly more than an ageing oik from Missouri.


Quote
ow kindly show me a critically reviewed article in a reputable medical journal to support your frankly incredible claim that NO freely passes through the human epidermis.
   

Actually I think you will find I don't need to, I have asked my lecturer, a researcher in the field of NO and he has told me that NO is permeable through membranes. It is up to you to prove him and me wrong.

What you don't like is being shown up to be wrong, hence you are now floundering and demanding papers. However I will help you out a bit here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20662836

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20813110

Do you need me to explain either of those to you?

Quote
Are you sure you're a graduate student? When I was in my graduate seminars in Pharmacology (back in the day) we learned how to support our arguments without inviting people to kiss our a**. The way we did that was to politely say, "show me the facts to support your most remarkable assertion." When they couldn't do that then they were fair game to be asked if they had recently visited fairyland and maybe had a toot with the little people.   

Nah I am making it all up!!! ::) When you were a graduate? Can you actually remember back that far? Now you see for me to support an argument politely, it would have to be asked politely, not suggesting I had gone to fairy land or that it was science fiction. I thought when you posted those questions you were interested in whether the socks would actually work, so I put a few answers back in the hope of opening up the discussion, see if anyone had any ideas. But instead you replied in a patronising and insulting tone. Hence my reply that you can kiss my a**. I am not known for my tolerance of fools on here.

As for the socks, I have doubts whether they would work for any length of time, and if the amount of NO embedded would last for enough time to warrant the cost of the socks. However that does not stop NO being permeable in membranes.

Now Martin, if NO is NOT permeable in membranes, how do you suggest it works? You might have to blow the dust off your books for that one.
All you have done so far is googled it....  ::)




« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 14:41:26 by Variola »
 

Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #14 on: 05/09/2010 15:11:00 »
You show me two articles showing that NO crosses membranes. That is not in dispute. The question at hand is whether or not NO crosses the epidermis (the skin barrier) which you have not shown...because no one has ever shown it to do so..and which simple logic tells us would be a miraculous phenomenon.

We are still waiting to see your proof, Mister.

Now you may wonder why I am pursuing this question so doggedly. If, in fact, NO doesn't cross the skin barrier these socks are worthless junk that some scoundrel is trying to flog to diabetics as useful prevention of foot amputations (as an "off label" treatment) instead of real medicine.....I hate scum who cheat and prey upon the sick. I could be easily talked into a long and exemplary prison sentence for the lot of them - and double that for people with a degree.

 
« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:10:33 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #15 on: 05/09/2010 15:55:22 »
I wonder what part of this you are not understanding.....  ::)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WMD-4576DSX-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01/07/2002&_alid=1451220097&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_zone=rslt_list_item&_cdi=6932&_sort=r&_st=13&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1199&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=133e7816c36779a4944ff800d10a1a4a&searchtype=a

(excuse the long link, would not post any other way)


Mathematical Modelling of Nitric Oxide Regulation of Rete Peg Formation
in Psoriasis- NICHOLAS J. SAVILL, RICHARD WELLER and JONATHAN A. SHERRATT
Journal of Theoretical Biology
Volume 214, Issue 1, 7 January 2002, Pages 1-16


Quote
Healthy
human skin does produce nitric oxide, at very
low levels, as a result of chemical reactions within
sweat (Weller et al., 1996b). However, production
is about ten times higher in non-lesional skin of
psoriatics, and about ten times higher again in
the plaques themselves (Weller& Ormerod, 1997;
Orem et al., 1997; Ormerod et al., 1998). These
observations are highly suggestive of a role for
nitric oxide in the development of psoriasis, although
no mechanism has yet been established.
From a clinical viewpoint, this is an exciting
possibility, because nitric oxide levels can be altered
relatively easily, by topical application of
nitric oxide donors or inhibitors.   

Skin produces NO in combination with sweat,sweat is on the outside of your body.
It is not a pump system and does not rely on protein carriers. It is permeable through the membrane.
Topical, meaning applied to the skin. This backed up by other cited papers in the article.


Quote
The nitric oxide molecule is small and is soluble
in phospholipid membranes and thus will
diffuse at approximately the same (high) rate in
different layers of the skin, unimpeded by cells,
extracellular matrix components, etc. 

Oh look, it is permeable through the phospholipid later, that means it can move freely in and out of cells, even skin layers. It can even squeeze through in between epithelial cells.

Quote
The high production rates of nitric oxide in
psoriatic plaques have been established by
measuring release rates of nitric oxide from the
skin surface.

It is released from cells, show me some proof that it cannot enter back in?

I am losing the will to live with this conversation. I have the word of a researcher in NO, which you are trying to doubt because you are wrong. Why don't you email him and tell him he is wrong?
 I have stated my position, all you have done is googled some rubbish. Either prove NO cannot be absorbed through the skin, or admit you are wrong and back down. I am not going to waste my time replying to your ill-informed posts until you do.

As for my peevish comments and 'scientific traditions'..... lol you think googling is a scientific tradition and far outweighs the word of a respected researcher? Hahahahhahahahaha  ;D


« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:00:08 by Variola »
 

Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #16 on: 05/09/2010 16:25:08 »
The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body.Your arguments about what happens in live cells simply do not apply to the case at hand. Why are you working so hard to try to confuse people? It is extremely dishonorable.

These socks are almost certainly worthless garbage (p>> 99.9%). Worse than that - they would divert people from effective therapy and consume scarce health care funds. You are promoting untried and pernicious therapy based on a preposterous idea. Does your Mother know what you're up to?
« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:31:53 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #17 on: 05/09/2010 16:39:43 »
Quote
The epidermis is composed of dead cells...your arguments about what happens in live cells do not apply to the case at hand. Why are you working so hard to try to confuse people? It is extremely dishonorable.
 

I repeat:

Skin produces NO in combination with sweat,sweat is on the outside of your body.
It is not a pump system and does not rely on protein carriers. It is permeable through the membrane.
Topical, meaning applied to the skin. This backed up by other cited papers in the article.
It can even squeeze through in between epithelial cells.

So top skin is totally dead and nothing can pass through it huh?? Best tell that to manufactures of medications that reply on being absorbed by the skin. Desquamation is not a suit of armor!
 
Quote
You are promoting untried therapy based on a preposterous idea. 

I repeat:

As for the socks, I have doubts whether they would work for any length of time, and if the amount of NO embedded would last for enough time to warrant the cost of the socks.

Quote
  Does your Mother know what you're up to?

I doubt it she died some years ago.


 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Are you being deliberately thick or do you need to take a course in reading comprehension?  ::)

I repeat either show me that NO cannot be absorbed by the skin or back down.










 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #18 on: 05/09/2010 16:45:33 »
The wonderful world of science forums....

*My lecturer, an NO researcher says NO can be absorbed into the skin.

*Papers state that NO can be absorbed into the skin. They cite other papers than also state this.

But because Martin_The_K states it cannot permeate, supported by a few google quotes, I am to believe the opposite!  :D

This place just gets better!  :)
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #19 on: 05/09/2010 16:55:57 »
It was your original claim that NO crossed the skin barrier. I have thrice asked you to show some reputable source to support your claim and the best you can come up with is to ask me to prove that it doesn't. Apparently that's all you've got. I personally believe you, little buddy. (thousands wouldn't) I'm sure you will have a most interesting career in science

I hope that this tiresome exchange has at least caused people to question the junk science behind these wretched socks.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #20 on: 05/09/2010 17:22:15 »
Quote
It was your original claim that NO crossed the skin barrier. 

My original sentence was in response to yours questioning whether it did or not. My response was that I thought it did.

Quote
have thrice asked you to show some reputable source to support your claim and the best you can come up with is to ask me to prove that it doesn't.   

I have provided-

*The opinion of my lecturer a researcher in NO and backed his credentials up by posting links to his profile. Are you now saying he is not reputable? His papers on NO are not reputable?

*Several peer-reviewed papers that dispute your opinion.

You are now relying on trying to claim I have not provided reputable source, that is a pretty poor show Martin.
 
Quote
I personally believe you, little buddy. (thousands wouldn't) I'm sure you will have a most interesting career in science

Ah so instead of backing up your statement with evidence, you decide to try and patronise me again.  ;D Martin, I am 35 yrs old, I have 3 kids and a house, I already have a professional career behind me, and I am midway through my career change. Do you really think I am going to be bothered  whether an ageing 'nurse' believes a word I say?  :D :D (Rhet)


Quote
  hope that this tiresome exchange has at least caused people to question the junk science behind these wretched socks.
 


 The junk science that you have yet to disprove,
Well it has certainly shown you up for what you are.




 



« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 17:24:54 by Variola »
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #21 on: 05/09/2010 17:42:08 »
At this point I am reminded of the advice of Mark Twain, "Never argue with a fool because people passing by won't be able to tell the difference between you."

If you ever find something that actually supports your thesis (actually, now it's your 'opinion' you say), I would be interested in seeing it .






« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 17:47:13 by MartinTheK »
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #22 on: 05/09/2010 17:54:34 »
So instead of providing any sound arguments you are now trying to say it is my thesis??  :D :D

Do you not think people can read this thread??? I am not sure whether you really are being dense, or you really do believe you can rewrite history!

Keep going Martin, I am actually looking forward to your posts now, they are becoming more entertaining!
 

Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #23 on: 05/09/2010 18:04:22 »
Excuse me...I'm spending the day reading Huckleberry Finn again....You know, I could almost swear there's a guy just like you in it!
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #24 on: 05/09/2010 18:14:18 »
Really? Wow he must look odd with long hair and a large chest  :D :D
 

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