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Author Topic: What is the universe expanding into?  (Read 5672 times)

Offline wolram

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What is the universe expanding into?
« on: 20/02/2006 19:56:00 »

I think most scientists agree that the universe is expanding ( the way it is expanding seems rather unique) ie the distance between gravitationaly bound bodies does not increase, the distance between the sun moon earth is not affected, but the distance between un bound bodies does increase.
If some thing the (universe) is expanding it is increasing in size
(it must have space to expand) but no space exists (out side ) the
universe, as the universe is (all) that exists, i have looked on
several FAQ sites, and the most popular ansewer to what is the universe
expanding into is, it is (philisophical) and no interest to science, or
words to the same effect. So if science can not tell us what the universe is expanding (in to)how can we think it is right.

A born optomist


 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #1 on: 20/02/2006 20:49:54 »
quote:
I think most scientists agree that the universe is expanding ( the way it is expanding seems rather unique) ie the distance between gravitationally bound bodies does not increase, the distance between the sun moon earth is not affected, but the distance between un bound bodies does increase.


its not unique its just that the force {dark energy}which is expanding the space between the galaxies is a weak force compared to gravity.so areas which are full of mass like galaxies are controlled by gravity as it is able to overwhelm the weaker dark energy.
And the areas between the galaxies where there is little mass allows the much weaker dark energy to become the strong prominent force which is expanding space.

quote:
If some thing the (universe) is expanding it is increasing in size
(it must have space to expand) but no space exists (out side ) the
universe, as the universe is (all) that exists, i have looked on
several FAQ sites, and the most popular answer to what is the universe
expanding into is, it is (philisophical) and no interest to science, or
words to the same effect. So if science can not tell us what the universe is expanding (in to)how can we think it is right.



The way i see it is our universe is probably an insignificant part of a super universe containing an infinite number of other universes. and our universe is just expanding into the empty space between other universes. but as we will never be able to see beyond our universe because of the infinite distance we will never be able to tell whats out there for sure.

These are just my views and i'm sure others will follow.:)

Michael
« Last Edit: 20/02/2006 21:01:27 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Mystericon

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #2 on: 20/02/2006 23:46:23 »
Things like this destroy my brain when I even begin to think about it...

As I mentioned in my post a few days ago, I believe that maybe our planet is an electron, our sun is the neutron, our solar system is an atom, Our Galaxy is a cell... And so on. I know its highly unlikely I just love the idea of believing I am part of larger entities and possibly made up of billions of galaxies.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #3 on: 21/02/2006 01:25:42 »
Michael - firstly, there is no evidence for dark matter. It is a theory to explain the so-called missing mass.

Secondly - if there are other universes, ours wouldn't be expanding into the space between them as there would be no "between". Each universe would do as ours does - create its own space as it expands.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #4 on: 21/02/2006 03:05:49 »
Hiya doc
quote:
Michael - firstly, there is no evidence for dark matter. It is a theory to explain the so-called missing mass
Doc i didn't say dark matter i said dark energy.

Dark matter is what holds our galaxy together.  Also Dark matter galaxies, galaxies mainly comprised of dark matter have been found,and there are lots of other discoveries which when put together give credence to the idea that dark matter must exist.
You don't need a body to prove someone committed murder.(George i wasn't talking about you)

Dark energy is the mysterious force which is causing our universe to expand,the proof of its existence is expansion itself.

 
quote:
Secondly - if there are other universes, ours wouldn't be expanding into the space between them as there would be no "between". Each universe would do as ours does - create its own space as it expands


I dont believe that our universe is magically expanding into nothing,(i dont believe in magic) i believe its expanding within a host universe which is home to many other universes ,therefore the space which are universe is expanding into is already present. Unless somehow in the future we can somehow view whats beyond our universes collection of galaxies (view outside)we will never know where or how a universe resides in the great scheme of things.

Michael
« Last Edit: 21/02/2006 03:07:38 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Ray hinton

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #5 on: 21/02/2006 15:02:25 »
uuhhh
so is it expanding or is it just squirming around [:(!]

RE-HAB IS FOR QUITTERS.
 

Offline wolram

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #6 on: 21/02/2006 17:57:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

quote:
I think most scientists agree that the universe is expanding ( the way it is expanding seems rather unique) ie the distance between gravitationally bound bodies does not increase, the distance between the sun moon earth is not affected, but the distance between un bound bodies does increase.


its not unique its just that the force {dark energy}which is expanding the space between the galaxies is a weak force compared to gravity.so areas which are full of mass like galaxies are controlled by gravity as it is able to overwhelm the weaker dark energy.
And the areas between the galaxies where there is little mass allows the much weaker dark energy to become the strong prominent force which is expanding space.

quote:
If some thing the (universe) is expanding it is increasing in size
(it must have space to expand) but no space exists (out side ) the
universe, as the universe is (all) that exists, i have looked on
several FAQ sites, and the most popular answer to what is the universe
expanding into is, it is (philisophical) and no interest to science, or
words to the same effect. So if science can not tell us what the universe is expanding (in to)how can we think it is right.



The way i see it is our universe is probably an insignificant part of a super universe containing an infinite number of other universes. and our universe is just expanding into the empty space between other universes. but as we will never be able to see beyond our universe because of the infinite distance we will never be able to tell whats out there for sure.

These are just my views and i'm sure others will follow.:)

Michael


One minor point Michael, Space is assumed to be expanding (every where), not just between galaxies, but gravity holds bodies together
in galaxies. It is like the rubber sheet analogy, but galaxies are
not fixed in possistion, and the rubber still stretches in the area the galaxy occupies.

A born optomist
 

another_someone

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #7 on: 21/02/2006 18:16:56 »
Ofcourse, one fly in the ointment is that it is impossible to prove that the universe is expanding in an absolute sense, we can only say that the gap between the constituent parts of the universe is getting smaller in comparison to its component parts, but it could just as easily be that its component parts are shrinking.  In the latter case, what the universe is expanding into is an irrelevance, since the universe would not be expanding at all.

I think we had this debate on another thread some time ago.



George
« Last Edit: 21/02/2006 18:18:30 by another_someone »
 

Offline wolram

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #8 on: 21/02/2006 19:14:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Ofcourse, one fly in the ointment is that it is impossible to prove that the universe is expanding in an absolute sense, we can only say that the gap between the constituent parts of the universe is getting smaller in comparison to its component parts, but it could just as easily be that its component parts are shrinking.  In the latter case, what the universe is expanding into is an irrelevance, since the universe would not be expanding at all.

I think we had this debate on another thread some time ago.



George


And it gets even stranger, when the SM has 70% of all there is in the
univers is (dark energy) and 25% is (dark matter) leaving only 5% for
stars, planets,gas.



A born optomist
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #9 on: 21/02/2006 21:11:26 »
quote:
One minor point Michael, Space is assumed to be expanding (every where), not just between galaxies.



but does space itself really expand within a galaxy like it does between the galaxies, hard one two prove either way.

Michael
« Last Edit: 21/02/2006 22:50:13 by ukmicky »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #10 on: 21/02/2006 21:21:33 »
Michael - my mistake. Blame the puppies. I was awake for almost 60 hours.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #11 on: 21/02/2006 22:12:07 »
No worries doc.  what breed are the pups.

Michael
 

Offline Ray hinton

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #12 on: 22/02/2006 01:15:02 »
piecost!!
 

Offline wolram

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #13 on: 22/02/2006 13:39:06 »

You are right Michael.
Quote

but does space itself really expand within a galaxy like it does between the galaxies, hard one two prove either way.[QUOTE/]
Scientists do not have a infinitely rigid ruler, so they must depend on GR and red shift data,
The results from GP B will be in in 2007, they should help confirm falsify these theories.

A born optomist
 

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Re: What is the universe expanding into?
« Reply #13 on: 22/02/2006 13:39:06 »

 

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