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Author Topic: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?  (Read 7861 times)

Offline CD13

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Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« on: 31/08/2012 19:29:35 »
Hope this isn't too basic but ....

If dark matter has mass (I'm assuming it must have or it wouldn't affect gravity), does it follow that it must be influenced by the Higgs Field?

Therefore ... the force carrier must be present?
« Last Edit: 02/09/2012 22:11:48 by chris »


 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #1 on: 31/08/2012 20:27:12 »
What if it is made up from exotic particles? Meaning not our normal atoms but something different? Dark matter neither radiate, nor absorb light. According to the amount of deuterium measured from our Big Bang it can't be made from atoms, if it was we would have less deuterium available.

"The proportion of deuterium that ought to emerge from the Big Bang depends on how dense the Universe is, and observations agree with theory if there are 0.2 hydrogen atoms in each cubic metre. This proportion agrees quite well with the actual number of atoms in shining objects — half of these atoms are in galaxies, and the other half in intergalactic gas — but nothing much is then left over for the dark matter. If there were enough atoms to make up all the dark matter, the concordance with theory would be shattered. The Big Bang calculations would then predict much less deuterium, and somewhat more helium, than we actually observe: the origin of the deuterium in the Universe would then become a total mystery."

So what is it made from?
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #2 on: 01/09/2012 06:08:34 »
Dark Matter.

   I believe this does not exist, and that it is gravity or another ( undiscovered ) force.  Gravity's secrets have eluded scientists so far in there quest for there "unified theory".  Gravity might be the key, but that puzzle is eluding them as much as this so called "dark matter".  Dark is used for unknowns, ex - dark matter, dark energy, dark particles, etc.

  there is something causing "unknown" effects on matter, but this "force" may just be one of gravities many puzzles.

 
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #3 on: 01/09/2012 06:26:13 »
We have already detected dark matter, it is slow neutrinos. Oscillations of neutrinos is not oscillations but elastic collisions  between slow and usual fast neutrinos. Where does all this dark matter comes from? The universe is eternal and certainly larger than what we thought. 95 to 98% of all energy expelled from supernovae is neutrinos...  ;)

Neutrinos are so light that they are less likely (statistically speaking) than ordinary matter particles to be absorbed by black holes.

There is no higgs field but a gravitational-inertial field. Inertia and gravity are the 2 sides of the same coin. Any 0 spin particle is composed of 2 elementary particles having +1/2 and -1/2 spins. If not, it would invalidate Relativity. It does not make any sense.

The higgs boson is a dead end and nothing useful will come out of it. And it certainly not Peter Higgs fault...



« Last Edit: 01/09/2012 06:48:06 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Emc2

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #4 on: 01/09/2012 08:23:48 »
We have already detected dark matter, it is slow neutrinos. Oscillations of neutrinos is not oscillations but elastic collisions  between slow and usual fast neutrinos. Where does all this dark matter comes from? The universe is eternal and certainly larger than what we thought. 95 to 98% of all energy expelled from supernovae is neutrinos...  ;)


Neutrinos are so light that they are less likely (statistically speaking) than ordinary matter particles to be absorbed by black holes.

There is no higgs field but a gravitational-inertial field. Inertia and gravity are the 2 sides of the same coin. Any 0 spin particle is composed of 2 elementary particles having +1/2 and -1/2 spins. If not, it would invalidate Relativity. It does not make any sense.

The higgs boson is a dead end and nothing useful will come out of it. And it certainly not Peter Higgs fault...


yes, the universe is both eternal and infinite.......
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #5 on: 02/09/2012 05:06:21 »
Yeah, neutrinos are a good guess to me too but??

Take a look here, and follow the links 
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #6 on: 02/09/2012 07:40:08 »
First, modified gravitational laws would produced specific patterns of gravitational lensing that are not observed. What is observed is clearly dark matter particles. These particles must be extremely stable. Heavy cold dark matter particles would gather in clumps that could be denser than stars which would be easily observed.

Neutrinos don't seem to decay.

Cold neutrinos are not expected because the universe is supposed to be born from a singularity. But the singularity is just an indication that Einstein Field equation is incomplete or simply an approximation. Our visible universe seems to leak matter and radiation. The most logical explanation is a much larger universe with many cyclic bigbangs. Thus there is  certainly slow neutrinos that came from other bigbangs if my theory is correct. Neutrinos are very light but contrary to what people think, they are not small but very large, about 500 000 times larger than electrons which are over 100 times larger than protons. So from a matter particles point of view, slow neutrinos (no length contraction) will be seen as flat waves and thus not interacting with it but gravitationaly.

Hawking-unruh radiation is the particles themselves. Black holes are similar to neutrinos but they are made of multiple Planck wavelengths. Neutrinos don't radiate so black holes should not. Hawking-Unruh radiation comes from vacuum energy. There is no vacuum energy, the universe is one wave of energy. The Quantum Theory is so near but so far from the truth at the same time. Some bad concepts are haunting it and the cause is conditioning. Before teaching Science, free thinking should be taught. Analysis is well taught but synthesis is badly taught...
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #7 on: 02/09/2012 09:06:46 »
Leak radiation and matter CPT?
Hmm, you better present some proofs for that one :)

If that's correct our conservation laws should be in dire circumstances, as I think.
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Dark Matter
« Reply #8 on: 02/09/2012 09:24:52 »
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-the-universe-leaking-energy

In my theory, there is no conservation problem, it is implied. The bigbang is a black hole expanding. Half of the black hole energy is kinetic energy, half is gravitational energy (which is the strong force in a black hole, unified with electromagnetism). The kinetic energy is exchanged with other black holes in the cycles of bigbangs. It is strikingly similar to the exchange of halves charges between particles (entanglement). Black holes are particles... I found both independantly!!!

In order to leak, matter just need escape velocity. There is a center to bigbangs if they come from a black hole and black holes are particles. It does not violate relativity in any way because the universe is made of multiple bigbangs. There is no dark energy, the observations leading to dark energy is a circular argument inside the cosmological model. In fact, it is a proof of non homogeneity but in the standard model you need dark energy. Dark energy is an observation of non homogeneity but it is not considered in this way. Closed mind problem...

The center is probably the cold spot...

And don't forget that neutrinos are slower than the speed of light. Light always has the speed of light whatever the observer, not matter even if it travels at near lightspeed for an observer, it can be stopped for another.



« Last Edit: 02/09/2012 10:29:18 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #9 on: 03/09/2012 12:37:28 »
CPT ArkAngel & yor_on: A short discussion about why Dark Matter composition should only be a  small fraction made up of neutrinos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Hot_dark_matter
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #10 on: 03/09/2012 17:51:50 »
If dark matter has mass (I'm assuming it must have or it wouldn't affect gravity), does it follow that it must be influenced by the Higgs Field?

Good question!  If we assume that dark matter is a form of matter that interacts via gravity, but not via electromagnetism (which means it doesn't emit light), then we know it has gravitational mass--the kind of mass that causes interaction with gravity.  However, the Higgs field explains only inertial mass--the kind of mass that makes it take more work to accelerate a car to a given speed than to accelerate a tennis ball.  As far as we know, the two types of mass are equivalent--dark matter with gravitational mass should also have the same amount of inertial mass, which would mean it interacts with the Higgs field.  However, we don't know why this should be the case.  We only know that it appears to be the case in all our observations.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #11 on: 03/09/2012 23:03:38 »
What does it explain really JP? The inertia of something accelerating? How does it stand on the equivalence principle? stating that a uniform acceleration is equivalent to a uniform gravity? Using that you can see all masses as 'uniformly accelerating' but using Higgs I seem to introduce a 'preferred frame of reference' defining what is a acceleration. To me that is as good as trying to invalidate GR? And by indirect reasoning too, assuming/inducing instead of measuring.
=

now as a byside :)

"Actually...one of the exciting findings is that the Higgs boson's mass is lower than expected. So low that the standard model predicts that the vacuum should be unstable. That means any space with no particles in it should be boiling away, with the zero point energy converting into real energy. Since we probably would have noticed if the universe had spontaneously disintegrated, that suggests something needs to be fixed in the standard model."

Not the Higgs then?
But the standard model, and GR too possibly?
==
Hm reading some more it seems as if its mass stop, just before this 'disintegration'. Still, GR is validated directly by time dilations etc, Higgs isn't, well, as far as i know?
« Last Edit: 03/09/2012 23:41:17 by yor_on »
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #12 on: 04/09/2012 11:51:58 »
JP
If the dark matter particles violate weak equivalence and have say zero inertial mass whilst having positive gravitational mass does that imply that they would be moving at SoL?


Yoron
On the wikipedia is good on the differences between the weak, Einsteinian, and strong equivalence principles.  I am not sure that a field like that described really does form a preferred frame of reference.

quote from where?  calculations from ZPE to background energy just do not work - we have something wrongin our theory; it was 10^120 orders of magnitude wrong before the Higgs and remains wrong regardless of the energy of the higg's boson.  in the vast majority of concepts the higgs is a huge plus for the standard model. 

 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #13 on: 04/09/2012 16:47:00 »
Matthew, I don't know the answer.  I can make some educated guesses though.  Certainly if the weak equivalence principle were violated, we'd have to rethink general relativity (GR).  It shouldn't, however, influence special relativity (SR) directly, since SR doesn't rely on and special relativity.  In other words, something with zero inertial mass should move at the speed of light (unless we find SR is also violated). 

I was being somewhat pedantic in posting that, but it is important to know that there is a difference between inertial and gravitational masses.  Even though the weak equivalence principle appears to hold in all cases we've checked, we don't know a fundamental reason why it should hold.  Presumably there is some underlying connection between the Higgs mechanism and gravity, but we don't know what that is.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #14 on: 04/09/2012 16:57:24 »
Nah, Imatfaal, I sort of threw it in, in the heat of the moment :) I'm irritated with the way the Higgs has assumed almost religious proportions on the net. Self-fulfilling prophetias need to be experimentally verified by direct experiments. I'm pretty sure that using high energies we can find all sort of interesting phenomena, after all, assuming a hot Big Bang we should then close in on symmetrybreaks and what more? Don't get me wrong here, Cern is money well spent but when it comes to the Higgs I need a lot more than just indirect evidence, especially as it seems to overthrow GR. And that one hasn't been answered by you either?
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #15 on: 04/09/2012 17:05:40 »
As for what preferred frame is, it has to be a frame of reference that you can relate, for example, all accelerations too. Depending on view you can find people defining a 'acceleration' as a 'infinite amount of displacements' from uniform motions, meaning that they all could be seen as including 'instants' of uniform motion, as imagined 'frozen in time'. Using that definition and turning that around you can so also define a uniform motion as a 'instant of a acceleration'. And Einsteins original GR is pretty clear on the equivalence principle, I still haven't seen any clear definitions of how the Higgs see it. There's a lot of theories claiming that they 'fit' relativity, and I've seen that claim for Higgs too. So this should be a simple question, already solved?
==

In a indirect way Higgs also propose the mechanism why all uniform motions are 'the exact same', as observed from the view of 'inertia' of a system, so if I want to be mean :) I could say that the Higgs is a try to quantify 'motion'. And in relativity we then have two types. Uniform motion and accelerations in where uniform accelerations is equivalent to 'gravity'. But Higgs avoid 'gravity' as I understands it? Einstein and Higgs collide there as I see it. SR is a very clear theoretical definition, in a 'flat space', GR on the other hand works, as far as I know, for what we see practically. And those field equations are still being milked for all sorts of interesting ideas. If you like I might relate SR as more close to philosophy, that is very logical but also very restricted, hmm, that sounded weird :) let's put it like this instead, 'defined inside a system' than what I find GR:s SpaceTime to be. GR is more of 'poetry in equations' to me :) if you get my drift, and works.

Is the Higgs a better fit than GR?
« Last Edit: 04/09/2012 17:51:43 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #16 on: 04/09/2012 18:17:42 »
The Higgs mechanism doesn't deal with the equivalence principle since it's a part of the standard model.  It explains non-gravitational effects of mass, i.e. inertial mass--as in why mass "resists" accelerations (it takes more force to accelerate a large mass object from rest to a certain speed than it does to accelerate a small mass object).

I don't see how there's a problem with between the Higgs mechanism and general relativity, since we don't know why gravitational and inertial masses appear to be the same.  Presumably there's some mechanism at work that will link all this up in a sensible way, but we haven't found it yet.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #17 on: 04/09/2012 18:23:08 »
It's a problem  :)

I can happily 'play' with 'c', as in SR, alone, until we get to 'gravity'. After that I find Einsteins definition of 'motion' and 'gravity' to be what makes most sense to me (GR). In my own ideas I keep trying to relate Relativity to a very small scale, fitting for QM, and I agree that with 'gravity' we need a way too relate it too. But that has to do with the continuum and background dependencies of the same to me, not 'particles' per se, although? 'particles' exist, don't they? So maybe there is 'particles/bosons' covering 'gravity' too. But then those also should be what creates a SpaceTime, to me that is :)

And then we need to remember the superimposing, super positioning, we assume Bosons to be able to do, to find a definition of seamlessness, maybe? Not sure at all there. But yeah, inertia relative gravity JP. But if you try to define what makes the inertia in a uniform acceleration, without considering its 'gravity' you will need to split 'gravity' in two definitions as it seems to me?

One 'false' sort of, being uniform accelerations, and one 'real', what we experience being at rest on a planet. and that? It isn't GR to me. Or how would you define it?
==

Maybe you can split inertia from gravity? I know we've discussed this before, but I find it so much simpler to assume that they are two sides of the same coin. And that's the way I presume GR to think of it too, although to give it a strict definition you need to make the equivalence between a 'uniform acceleration' and 'gravity'?
« Last Edit: 04/09/2012 18:38:32 by yor_on »
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #18 on: 11/09/2012 06:11:42 »
I think acceleration and gravity can be viewed as locally identical phenomena ifwe take the view that both cases express how matter behaves in a space-time that is not flat.
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #19 on: 11/09/2012 06:21:11 »
The role of things such as the Higgs, then  becomes that of linking matter to space-time, with the result that the Higgs would impart the same sort of behavior whether in an accelerated reference frame or on the surface of a gravitating body.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #20 on: 12/09/2012 10:33:13 »
You might say that the Higgs is closely related to the question what 'motion' really means. Relativity defines it as 'relative motion' implying that all uniform motion can be defined as being equivalent. That includes the question if you then move 'at all', meaning that you are free to define yourself as 'unmoving', as I understands it.

So what is 'motion' from a relativistic perspective?
Locally you will see blue and red shifts though, depending on your motion so in that motto we may be allowed as defining ourselves as 'moving' in some absolute way. The Higgs assume a absolute frame of reference for 'motion' as I read it? In where accelerations are what creates the 'resistance' of the Higgs Bosons, or 'field'. I like the idea of fields, but I'm not sure what sort of 'field' this would be as we know that relative ourselves there exist different uniform motions/speeds. The field is assumed to ignore this fact and only react presenting a 'inertia' at accelerations. Against that we have the idea of traveling uniformly close to the speed of light in where you will find a distorted Space and time, relative other frames of reference, which tells us that uniform motion indeed can be different as compared between frames, and also 'strictly locally', if you accept that radiations energy will change due to uniform motion? Myself I find it very hard to assume otherwise.

« Last Edit: 12/09/2012 10:36:54 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #21 on: 12/09/2012 13:29:19 »
No, the Higgs field shouldn't assume an absolute reference frame any more than the electromagnetic field or any other field in the standard model does.  I only know very fuzzy details, but the Higgs field accounts for inertial mass, so its effects should only be felt when trying to accelerate a particle.  Therefore, it should treat as equal all particles moving with constant velocity, so no preferred reference frame.  The way in which the Higgs acts should agree with special relativity (all parts of the Standard Model should), and so observations of inertial mass should depend on the observer's reference frame relative to the observed. 
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #22 on: 12/09/2012 15:00:13 »
It may be that I look at it differently than the main stream definition JP? In a main stream definition you have a 'unified indivisible SpaceTime' defined by four dimensions, same for us all, although containing 'frames of reference'. I prefer to look at it from locality, assuming nothing about a 'same invariant SpaceTime', instead using radiation as a representation joining localities. From such a definition 'fields' becomes problematic.

As for the Higgs, the universe know how to differ between uniform motions as I understands it. That's what your local radiation will tell you when it blueshift, as I think of it? But it's also a problem with defining what a frame of reference should be. As I think of it, it should belong to Plank scale, although HUP steps above that scale. But yeah, it could be a 'field' to me too, but how many degrees of freedom would that field represent? It's also a question about what the 'motion' of radiation represent, as there is only recoil and annihilation observed.

When it comes to a preferred frame that is :)
« Last Edit: 12/09/2012 15:02:34 by yor_on »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #23 on: 12/09/2012 15:10:07 »
It's a difference between relative uniform motions in the blueshift, though.  What the standard model (including the Higgs mechanism) does is to predict the results of measurements/interactions between things, and in that case the only way velocity should come into the model is as relative velocity between particles/the observer, not an absolute velocity.  In the case of a blueshift, it's relative velocity between the photons in your neighborhood and yourself (or between the emitter of those photons and yourself).
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #24 on: 12/09/2012 15:15:48 »
Yep, but it tells you one thing, that the universe has a way to define 'relative motion' locally, as I see it. Although you have the 'motion' of celestial objects relative each other to consider too in it.
 

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Re: Does dark matter interact with the Higgs Field?
« Reply #24 on: 12/09/2012 15:15:48 »

 

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