The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?  (Read 1106 times)

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
In this forum my question concerns the standard theory about when the light from the far stars turns red. At the same time I will ask the question in new theories to give the readers their opinions and their own theories. Hopefully this is an acceptable method of discussing the standard theory and any new ideas.
   At the same time what is an independent Einsteinian reference platform? Is our galaxy an independent platform? Is the sun an independent platform within the galaxy platform? Is the space platform spinning around the earth another independent platform?


 

Offline Atomic-S

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 928
  • Thanked: 18 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #1 on: 09/08/2016 05:50:46 »
I am not quite sure what the term "independent Einsteinian reference platform" means, so I will guess that it means one that is free of mechanical connections to any other. Such a platform is one such that the on-board observed gravity is 0.  So two platforms following different orbits or floating freely in widely separated locations, both of which are such that 0 g prevails on-board each, can be considered independent reference platforms, in my opinion.  However, before you accept that definition, you should attempt to ascertain in exactly what context the term has been used. 

When does the light of a far star turn red? That depends upon the reference platform from which it is being examined.
 

Online evan_au

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4096
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #2 on: 09/08/2016 11:56:47 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
when [does] the light from the far stars turns red?
1. Light is redder whenever we are moving away from the star that emitted the light, due to Doppler shift. Based on various measures of distance apart from Doppler shift, it seems that most of the universe is expanding away from us, so most distant galaxies are redder.

2. Light is redder when the bluer wavelengths are absorbed or scattered by dust between us and the star. This is distinguishable from Doppler shift because this mechanism changes the relative brightness of different spectral lines, but not their wavelengths.

3. Stars appear redder when they enter the red giant stage of their life. This can be identified by the temperature, brightness and chemical composition of the star (mostly obtained from spectroscopy).

4. Cepheid variable stars appear redder during certain phases of their cycle, as the outer parts of the star cool down. Cepheids are recognizable by periodic oscillations in brightness and temperature of the star.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #3 on: 09/08/2016 13:18:55 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
when [does] the light from the far stars turns red?
1. Light is redder whenever we are moving away from the star that emitted the light, due to Doppler shift. Based on various measures of distance apart from Doppler shift, it seems that most of the universe is expanding away from us, so most distant galaxies are redder.

   Thanks for your answers but there are more questions.
1. Do they observe that the red light is identical with the energy of the observed photons? Thus has the photons lost energy due to the motion of the far galaxies with respect to the Earth? This would be similar to a Doppler effect but not quite the same. The Doppler effect involves the measurement of the waves as they move toward us or away from us. No energy is involved but we observe different points on the waves.
2. Do they observe any differences in redness when the Earth is moving toward the sun or away from the sun. Thus the redder could get even more redder or turn toward a less redder. This would possibly indicate that the far light changes color when it reaches our galaxy and then changes color again as they reach our sun and finally changes color again when they reach the Earth. that would indicate that the Galaxy is an independent reference platform, and the Sun is another independent reference platform and finally the Earth is another reference platform.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #4 on: 09/08/2016 13:39:48 »
I am not quite sure what the term "independent Einsteinian reference platform" means, so I will guess that it means one that is free of mechanical connections to any other. Such a platform is one such that the on-board observed gravity is 0.  So two platforms following different orbits or floating freely in widely separated locations, both of which are such that 0 g prevails on-board each, can be considered independent reference platforms, in my opinion.  However, before you accept that definition, you should attempt to ascertain in exactly what context the term has been used. 

When does the light of a far star turn red? That depends upon the reference platform from which it is being examined.
   I posted my understanding of the independent reference platforms on new theories. Perhaps the physicists here can give you an answer. I have different answers.
 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #5 on: 09/08/2016 14:13:05 »
1. Do they observe that the red light is identical with the energy of the observed photons? Thus has the photons lost energy due to the motion of the far galaxies with respect to the Earth? This would be similar to a Doppler effect but not quite the same. The Doppler effect involves the measurement of the waves as they move toward us or away from us. No energy is involved but we observe different points on the waves.
Not quite correct. The sound waves changed through Doppler do transmit more or less energy depending on whether the source is moving towards or away from the receiver.

The redshift from cosmology is not properly Doppler, not because light can't undergo Doppler shift, but because its origin physically is somewhat different.

Quote
2. Do they observe any differences in redness when the Earth is moving toward the sun or away from the sun. Thus the redder could get even more redder or turn toward a less redder. This would possibly indicate that the far light changes color when it reaches our galaxy and then changes color again as they reach our sun and finally changes color again when they reach the Earth. that would indicate that the Galaxy is an independent reference platform, and the Sun is another independent reference platform and finally the Earth is another reference platform.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "independent reference platform", it is not a term in physics. In theory, the orbit of the Earth does introduce redshift and blueshift. In practice, it cannot be measured.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #6 on: 09/08/2016 14:31:35 »
1. Do they observe that the red light is identical with the energy of the observed photons? Thus has the photons lost energy due to the motion of the far galaxies with respect to the Earth? This would be similar to a Doppler effect but not quite the same. The Doppler effect involves the measurement of the waves as they move toward us or away from us. No energy is involved but we observe different points on the waves.
Not quite correct. The sound waves changed through Doppler do transmit more or less energy depending on whether the source is moving towards or away from the receiver.

The redshift from cosmology is not properly Doppler, not because light can't undergo Doppler shift, but because its origin physically is somewhat different.

Quote
2. Do they observe any differences in redness when the Earth is moving toward the sun or away from the sun. Thus the redder could get even more redder or turn toward a less redder. This would possibly indicate that the far light changes color when it reaches our galaxy and then changes color again as they reach our sun and finally changes color again when they reach the Earth. that would indicate that the Galaxy is an independent reference platform, and the Sun is another independent reference platform and finally the Earth is another reference platform.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "independent reference platform", it is not a term in physics. In theory, the orbit of the Earth does introduce redshift and blueshift. In practice, it cannot be measured.
  Thanks for the information. I carelessly mentioned sound waves which we know produce sonic booms near the speed of sound. Water waves would behave in a similar manner. So the difference in velocities produce Doppler which then turns non-linear.
  So you say the delta red/blue shift of the far stars has not been measured. Perhaps in the future it will be. So it is believed that photons do not experience Doppler themselves. that makes sense to me. Then at some time they lost energy as they travel toward us.
  Einstein has many independent platforms. Yet in my opinion a truly independent platform has a separate gravitational field. the Earth is independent from Mars. They are both within the suns gravitational field. The sun is independent from all the other stars in our Milkyway.
   Each person is independent from each other person but we are all codependent upon the Earth's field.  Thus light from the sun leaves the suns gravitational field and becomes part of the Earth field. It went from being independent of the Earths field to being dependent upon the earths field. Thus in my opinion changes to the color of light occur at the junction or balance point of the gravitational fields. This I put up in new theories and would appreciate your input there.
 
   
 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #7 on: 09/08/2016 17:27:16 »
  Thanks for the information. I carelessly mentioned sound waves which we know produce sonic booms near the speed of sound. Water waves would behave in a similar manner. So the difference in velocities produce Doppler which then turns non-linear.
Sound waves don't make sonic booms. Sonic booms are sound waves of a certain sort that are caused by objects moving at high speed. Doppler can effect the sound of these booms, but it is not a cause of the booms.

Quote
  So you say the delta red/blue shift of the far stars has not been measured. Perhaps in the future it will be. So it is believed that photons do not experience Doppler themselves. that makes sense to me. Then at some time they lost energy as they travel toward us.
I actually wrote something of a mistake there. We can and do measure the redshift in light associated with movement within our galaxy. However, this redshift tends to be very, very small compared to the redshift that we measure between galaxies.

Quote
  Einstein has many independent platforms.
Citation?
 

Online evan_au

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4096
  • Thanked: 244 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #8 on: 09/08/2016 22:57:00 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
2. Do they observe any differences in redness when the Earth is moving toward the sun or away from the sun.
Yes. High-resolution spectroscopy is used to detect planets around other stars in our galaxy - about half of the exoplanets discovered to date have been discovered by this method.

This method uses the fact that the position of the distant star is disturbed by the mass of any planet orbiting that star. The star and the planet effectively orbit their common center of gravity. Since the star has a much larger mass than the planet, the movement of the star is very small. I understand that some recent high-resolution spectrographs can detect a star moving backwards and forwards at a "walking pace". (Pretty impressive when you consider that the gases making up the star's surface are moving at enormous speeds!)

However, when you measure the velocity of the other star, you need to subtract out the speed of the Earth as it spins on its axis, and as the Earth orbits the Sun.

So, exoplanet hunters regularly measure the change in redness as the Earth moves towards and away from a star - while they are searching for far smaller changes in velocity of the distant star, caused by exoplanets orbiting that star.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_spectroscopy
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #9 on: 10/08/2016 11:24:30 »

Sound waves don't make sonic booms. Sonic booms are sound waves of a certain sort that are caused by objects moving at high speed. Doppler can effect the sound of these booms, but it is not a cause of the booms.


I actually wrote something of a mistake there. We can and do measure the redshift in light associated with movement within our galaxy. However, this redshift tends to be very, very small compared to the redshift that we measure between galaxies.

Quote
  Einstein has many independent platforms.
Citation?
  I was careless with my words again. Yes Sonic booms are caused by objects moving faster than about 660mph the speed of sound. But in my mind I could see the compression of the air and related that to the Doppler.
  As far as Einsteins independent platforms I get that from Postulate One by Einstein: "The Principle of relativity states that the laws of physics are the same or invariant for all inertial systems"  Postulate two by Einstein states " The speed of light in a vacuum is constant independent of the source or the observer." Thus Einstein has a huge number of inertial systems.

   Since your correction it appears that you believe that the redshift from the far stars and entering a telescope for measurement has a large shift between galaxies and then finer and finer corrections based upon the motion of the Earth and the rotational of the Earth. I would add the motion of the sun within our galaxy.
  From this I conclude in my new theories discussion that the photon changes energy as it enters our galaxy which is an independent inertial system. then it reaches our sun and changes  depending on whether the sun is moving toward the center of the galaxy or away. then it changes color again as it enters the Earths independent inertial platform.
   This tells me that the photons constant velocity C always exists relative to the center of gravity of each independent inertial platform.
Thus from these measurements the MM experiment is invalid because where ever you are, the speed of light is constant but photons traveling from the far stars are really moving at C-V yet once they reach our galaxy they lose energy and are moving at C.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #10 on: 10/08/2016 11:29:46 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
2. Do they observe any differences in redness when the Earth is moving toward the sun or away from the sun.
Yes. High-resolution spectroscopy is used to detect planets around other stars in our galaxy - about half of the exoplanets discovered to date have been discovered by this method.

This method uses the fact that the position of the distant star is disturbed by the mass of any planet orbiting that star. The star and the planet effectively orbit their common center of gravity. Since the star has a much larger mass than the planet, the movement of the star is very small. I understand that some recent high-resolution spectrographs can detect a star moving backwards and forwards at a "walking pace". (Pretty impressive when you consider that the gases making up the star's surface are moving at enormous speeds!)

However, when you measure the velocity of the other star, you need to subtract out the speed of the Earth as it spins on its axis, and as the Earth orbits the Sun.

So, exoplanet hunters regularly measure the change in redness as the Earth moves towards and away from a star - while they are searching for far smaller changes in velocity of the distant star, caused by exoplanets orbiting that star.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_spectroscopy
Thanks for the good information. This leads me to believe that the photon travels at the speed of light C relative to the gravitational field that it move in. In addition when it changes gravitational fields, the photon changes energy levels.If the gravitational fields are moving apart the photon lose energy. If the gravitational fields are moving toward each other the photon gains energy.
 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #11 on: 10/08/2016 13:53:50 »

  As far as Einsteins independent platforms I get that from Postulate One by Einstein: "The Principle of relativity states that the laws of physics are the same or invariant for all inertial systems"  Postulate two by Einstein states " The speed of light in a vacuum is constant independent of the source or the observer." Thus Einstein has a huge number of inertial systems.
Physics has a huge number of inertial systems. An infinite amount. An "inertial system" in this case is merely the choice of a system of coordinates. Einstein is just saying that choosing your system of coordinates should not change the laws of physics.

Quote
From this I conclude in my new theories discussion that the photon changes energy as it enters our galaxy which is an independent inertial system. then it reaches our sun and changes  depending on whether the sun is moving toward the center of the galaxy or away. then it changes color again as it enters the Earths independent inertial platform.
Nope. Every "inertial system" must include every physical object that you want to discuss, you cannot mix systems of coordinates.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #12 on: 11/08/2016 13:52:57 »

  As far as Einsteins independent platforms I get that from Postulate One by Einstein: "The Principle of relativity states that the laws of physics are the same or invariant for all inertial systems"  Postulate two by Einstein states " The speed of light in a vacuum is constant independent of the source or the observer." Thus Einstein has a huge number of inertial systems.
Physics has a huge number of inertial systems. An infinite amount. An "inertial system" in this case is merely the choice of a system of coordinates. Einstein is just saying that choosing your system of coordinates should not change the laws of physics.

Quote
From this I conclude in my new theories discussion that the photon changes energy as it enters our galaxy which is an independent inertial system. then it reaches our sun and changes  depending on whether the sun is moving toward the center of the galaxy or away. then it changes color again as it enters the Earths independent inertial platform.
Nope. Every "inertial system" must include every physical object that you want to discuss, you cannot mix systems of coordinates.

 The universe we live in is not a simple linear system. Upon the earth things are reasonably linear and the laws of physics can be described by simple best fit equations such as Einsteins special relativity. If you were in a black hole, non-linerar physics would be required. Now if you want to include all the non-linear effects then you could possibly adjust all the independent inertial platforms but who could do the math?
   One thing good about the earths gravitational field is that the center of this field is at the center of mass of the Earth.This tends to equalize everything upon this Earth. A space ship traveling around the Earth is codependent upon the earths field. Once the spaceship leaves the Earths gravitational field it becomes an independent system. However it is still within the Suns field and then within the galaxy field if it travels even further.
  Einsteins relativity is an ideal solution which works well because we exist upon this Earth in which our gravitational field equalizes what we see and observe. If we lived upon a planet traveling at 0.5C relative to the center of the galaxy the non-linear physics would eliminate the possibility that we could write Einstein's equations.
  Thus in my opinion Einstein's work is a special case of the more complex non-linear physics which govern the entire universe.
 

Offline PhysBang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #13 on: 11/08/2016 14:46:50 »

 The universe we live in is not a simple linear system. Upon the earth things are reasonably linear and the laws of physics can be described by simple best fit equations such as Einsteins special relativity. If you were in a black hole, non-linerar physics would be required. Now if you want to include all the non-linear effects then you could possibly adjust all the independent inertial platforms but who could do the math?
I agree that it would be a difficult math problem to discuss everything in the universe. This does not mean that "inertial platforms" are anything other than something you made up.

If one wants to discuss the interaction between two physical systems, then one has to use the same system of coordinates to describe that interaction. We can use many different systems of coordinates and we can use systems that do not include all objects.

Quote
  Thus in my opinion Einstein's work is a special case of the more complex non-linear physics which govern the entire universe.
That's a fine opinion to have. However, since his work appears to have amazingly accurate application out to very remote regions of the universe, it does seem like the right place to start.
 

Offline jerrygg38

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
  • Thanked: 27 times
    • View Profile
Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #14 on: 13/08/2016 11:58:43 »

 The universe we live in is not a simple linear system. Upon the earth things are reasonably linear and the laws of physics can be described by simple best fit equations such as Einsteins special relativity. If you were in a black hole, non-linerar physics would be required. Now if you want to include all the non-linear effects then you could possibly adjust all the independent inertial platforms but who could do the math?
I agree that it would be a difficult math problem to discuss everything in the universe. This does not mean that "inertial platforms" are anything other than something you made up.

If one wants to discuss the interaction between two physical systems, then one has to use the same system of coordinates to describe that interaction. We can use many different systems of coordinates and we can use systems that do not include all objects.

Quote
  Thus in my opinion Einstein's work is a special case of the more complex non-linear physics which govern the entire universe.
That's a fine opinion to have. However, since his work appears to have amazingly accurate application out to very remote regions of the universe, it does seem like the right place to start.
  Yes, Einsteins answers appear to be very good. As I see it they are electrical type geometric mean answers and it is difficult to obtain any better measurements. To do better we would have to take measurements on a spaceship far from the influence of a gravitational field stronger than the spaceships field and another spaceships field. Even then the galaxy field would tend to equalize things and we would have to go between galaxies. This cannot be done. Thus we will always be forced to accept gravitational field equalization of the results.
   The reports on the Doppler masses specified that the measurements were within the margin of error of the test instruments yet the authors believed they were true. so we are dealing with difficult things to prove. Perhaps someday we can get a pair of spaceships up to 0.2C and then it will be evident that Einstein's work is only a best fit approximation. Until then his solution is the best we can do.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: When does the light from the far galaxies turn red?
« Reply #14 on: 13/08/2016 11:58:43 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
 
Login
Login with username, password and session length