Post by: cleanair on 13/06/2021 05:25:02
Filter or 'reducing valve' theory of mind suggests that the origin of consciousness/life could be the Neutrino particle.
When life would be bound to a region around the Sun, then it may not be possible for animals to live on 🪐 Mars or to explore deep space.
A feature of the biological cell, plant and animal alike, is that all cells have a similar size, which is approximately 10 microns. If Neutrino's are the origin of consciousness/life then perhaps, the distance between the Earth and the Sun and the size of the biological cell are tied to enable life.
Questions:
1) What is the farthest distance an animal has traveled in space?
2) Is there evidence that Earth life is possible in deep space?
References:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain (https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/think-well/201906/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain)
https://medium.com/top-down-or-bottom-up/the-filter-theory-of-the-mind-brain-connection-cf48d7184b24 (https://medium.com/top-down-or-bottom-up/the-filter-theory-of-the-mind-brain-connection-cf48d7184b24)
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f8f7/977fed4fc4f3663634bf3f2185f478b60cae.pdf (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f8f7/977fed4fc4f3663634bf3f2185f478b60cae.pdf)
https://arrow.tudublin.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1100&context=scschphyart (https://arrow.tudublin.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1100&context=scschphyart)
https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikki-halsted/2019/02/neutrinos-and-astrology-could-this-ghost-particle-be-the-force-behind-human-consciousness/ (https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikki-halsted/2019/02/neutrinos-and-astrology-could-this-ghost-particle-be-the-force-behind-human-consciousness/)
Post by: Bored chemist on 13/06/2021 11:45:28
Almost all the travelling we do is a consequence of the Sun's motion through space so...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest-living_organisms
Post by: Kryptid on 13/06/2021 14:58:25
Post by: cleanair on 14/06/2021 15:55:22
With regard Neutrinos being the origin of consciousness/life. Wouldn't it be logical?
My logic shows that consciousness/life cannot be caused in the brain or in the individual.
Simple logic makes it evident at first sight: the origin of valuing cannot be value (a simple logical truth¹: something cannot be the origin of itself).
When one looks at the origin of consciousness, one looks at the origin of a manifestation. Properties such as cognition, perception and memory are manifestations. At question would be: why do those manifestations exist? What is the cause or origin?
The mentioned properties can only become manifested on the basis of information obtained by the senses, i.e. the mentioned properties of consciousness follow the origin of the senses. The scope of the quest can therefore be reduced to explaining the origin of the senses.
The origin of the senses is necessarily valuing because one is to assume a preceding position of 'lack of reason'. if it were to be otherwise, there would be nothing to be sensed. The scope of the quest can therefor be reduced to explaining the origin of valuing.
As is evident from the mentioned simple logical truth¹, what precedes valuing cannot be value and one is therefor required to look outside the scope of the individual for the origin of valuing.
Based on this logic the origin of consciousness/life must lay outside the scope of the individual.
The brain and human body may merely be an instrument.
--
It appears logical that the Sun may be the giver of life and the Neutrino particle or "Ghost Particle" may be the origin of life.
Neutrinos travel at the speed of light and in exact straight lines. The particles pass straight through stars such as the Sun, and straight through the earth's iron core.
It is estimated that 10 trillion Neutrinos fly through every square centimeter of space per second (within Earth's region in the solar system).
Neutrinos can morph, increasing their mass up to 3000x in size (maybe more, recently a fourth heavy weight flavor was discovered) which is why the particle is called a "Ghost Particle".
What could explain an act out of itself by a particle so small that it can pass straight through the core of the Sun? Perhaps it is a clue for the origin of consciousness/life.
When Neutrinos are the origin of consciousness/life, then, Earth life may be bound to a region around the Sun.
Post by: alancalverd on 14/06/2021 17:16:38
Post by: cleanair on 14/06/2021 18:24:55
This topic merely asks a simple question: what is the farthest distance that an animal has traveled and whether there is evidence that Earth life is possible in deep space.
The provided theory is merely intended to indicate that there may be a logical ground (including emerging new theories of mind) on the basis of which it may be applicable to question whether for example animals can live on 🪐 Mars.
If the farthest distance that an animal has traveled is around the 🌑 Moon, then perhaps, the great investments that are being made to live on 🪐 Mars may be at risk.
(2019) Science as we know it can’t explain consciousness – but a revolution is coming
http://theconversation.com/science-as-we-know-it-cant-explain-consciousness-but-a-revolution-is-coming-126143 (http://theconversation.com/science-as-we-know-it-cant-explain-consciousness-but-a-revolution-is-coming-126143)
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/06/2021 18:30:16
using logic to explore new theories may provide the best opportunity to discover new paths towards a valid explanation of consciousness/life.And logic tells you this.
Neutrinos interact very rarely with matter. Their involvement with consciousness therefore seems unlikely.So we know that there are lots of less bizarre suggestions for consciousness.
Why do you stick with one that's practically impossible?
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/06/2021 18:39:10
This topic merely asks a simple question: what is the farthest distance that an animal has traveledI think there are tortoises that are near 200 years old. About 6 billion seconds
The speed of the Sun through space is about 200 km/s
So that tortoise has travelled about 1.2E 15 metres
So what?
Post by: cleanair on 14/06/2021 18:43:40
(2018) The 4th Flavor? Scientists Close in on a New Kind of Neutrino
https://www.livescience.com/62842-fourth-flavor-neutrino.html
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12917542-700-science-fourth-neutrino-upsets-the-theories/
The particle simply is able to interact with matter, and with a changing mass.
Post by: Kryptid on 14/06/2021 20:08:08
The question has not been answered.
The Moon is probably as far from Earth as any animal has traveled (since humans are animals). Microbes have probably travelled much further as accidental hitchhikers on deep Solar System probes.
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2) Is there evidence that Earth life is possible in deep space?
Given that the vacuum of space causes water to boil, complex life would struggle to survive there. I believe experiments with microbes have found that some can survive in a vacuum in a state of suspended animation (as well as the more complex "water bear").
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With regard Neutrinos being the origin of consciousness/life. Wouldn't it be logical?
No, in part, for the reason I initially pointed out. There is also no observational correlation between neutrinos and consciousness.
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My logic shows that consciousness/life cannot be caused in the brain or in the individual.
No, it doesn't.
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Simple logic makes it evident at first sight: the origin of valuing cannot be value (a simple logical truth¹: something cannot be the origin of itself).
I don't think anyone here is arguing that consciousness is the origin for itself, so that's not an issue.
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Based on this logic the origin of consciousness/life must lay outside the scope of the individual.
Non-sequitur.
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It appears logical that the Sun may be the giver of life
In the sense that it supplies light for photosynthesis and warmth to keep water liquid on Earth, yes.
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and the Neutrino particle or "Ghost Particle" may be the origin of life.
You've provided no evidence for this so far.
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Neutrinos travel at the speed of light and in exact straight lines. The particles pass straight through stars such as the Sun, and straight through the earth's iron core.
You know what else they pass through? Living things.
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What could explain an act out of itself
I'm having trouble parsing this.
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Perhaps it is a clue for the origin of consciousness/life.
You've given no evidence for this.
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The provided theory
It's a hypothesis at best. There are zero observations that support it.
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recently a fourth heavy weight flavor was discovered
It's just a "possible" discovery. It hasn't been verified.
Post by: Bored chemist on 14/06/2021 21:15:33
So, we know, by experiment that the idea is wrong.
Would someone please move it to the "That can't be true" section?
Post by: cleanair on 14/06/2021 22:46:52
Therewith the question: what is the farthest distance that an animal has traveled in space?
If the farthest distance that an animal has traveled is around the Moon, then perhaps, the great investments that are being made to live on Mars may be at risk.
Post by: Kryptid on 14/06/2021 23:30:09
It wouldn't really matter whether the theory is valid. It is merely a lead for a possible indication that it may be applicable to question whether Earth life is possible outside a region around the Sun.
If evidence ever pops up that life is somehow dependent upon being in proximity to the Sun, feel free to let us know about that.
the great investments that are being made to live on Mars may be at risk.
I guess we'll know once we try.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2021 08:55:01
Therewith the question: what is the farthest distance that an animal has traveled in space?It will have increased a little since yesterday but this answer is still pretty close.
This topic merely asks a simple question: what is the farthest distance that an animal has traveledI think there are tortoises that are near 200 years old. About 6 billion seconds
The speed of the Sun through space is about 200 km/s
So that tortoise has travelled about 1.2E 15 metres
So what?
Post by: cleanair on 15/06/2021 13:13:27
Incidentally, if you stand near a nuclear reactor, you get way more neutrinos than usual, and it doesn't make any difference to your consciousness.
So, we know, by experiment that the idea is wrong.
Would someone please move it to the "That can't be true" section?
Nuclear reactors release electron antineutrinos, 10²⁰ of them per second in all directions. Also, the origin is essentially a dot with an outward spread as compared to the wide surface of the Sun directed 'at earth'. The resulting amount of (anti)Neutrinos that reaches the human may be low compared to that would be provided by the Sun.
Your argument has potentially be disproved and the Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness/life remains an option.
Is there evidence that 🦠 bacteria can survive beyond 🪐 Mars?
Post by: cleanair on 15/06/2021 13:15:45
It will have increased a little since yesterday but this answer is still pretty close.
The question is of course the distance from the Sun or Earth, e.g. towards 🪐 Mars and beyond.
Post by: cleanair on 15/06/2021 13:17:20
I guess we'll know once we try.
It appears strange that no tests have been done to send 🦠 bacteria or 🦗🦟🐜🕷🐛🐌 into farther regions of space. Wouldn't that be one of the first things to test?
Is there a specific reason that such tests were never done?
Post by: Kryptid on 15/06/2021 14:22:54
the Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness/life
It's not a theory.
It appears strange that no tests have been done to send 🦠 bacteria or 🦗🦟🐜🕷🐛🐌 into farther regions of space. Wouldn't that be one of the first things to test?
Is there a specific reason that such tests were never done?
We can duplicate the conditions of deep space on Earth, so there really isn't any purpose.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2021 14:26:14
Is there a specific reason that such tests were never done?Because we don't want to be seen as the jerks who littered space with our bugs.
Also, very few things have been sent much further than the moon; even fewer have been brought back.
Post by: cleanair on 15/06/2021 18:04:46
the Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness/life
It's not a theory.
Wouldn't it seem logical that life originates from the Sun? What would be the basis for the idea that it started randomly at some point in time and was passed on like a fire?
It appears strange that no tests have been done to send 🦠 bacteria or 🦗🦟🐜🕷🐛🐌 into farther regions of space. Wouldn't that be one of the first things to test?
Is there a specific reason that such tests were never done?
We can duplicate the conditions of deep space on Earth, so there really isn't any purpose.
Wouldn't it be one of the first things to test whether Earth life is bound to a region around the Sun?
I simply cannot understand how humans would suffice with some Earth / Moon based testing to assume that they can safely explore the Solar system, and are already investing trillions of USD for a mission to Mars in 2035.
mars-mission.jpg (38.99 kB . 157x187 - viewed 6209 times)It seems crazy that no insect or bacteria as of today, went farther than the Moon.
Post by: Bored chemist on 15/06/2021 18:07:59
Wouldn't it seem logical that life originates from the Sun?No.
Also, it seems you don't know what a theory is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
Wouldn't one of the first things to test be whether Earth life is bound to a region around the Sun?No.
Because there's no mechanism by which it could be.
(And, of course, we know,by experiment, that neutrinos don't affect people.)
I simply cannot understand ...That seems to be an item on a long list.
Post by: Kryptid on 15/06/2021 21:33:35
Wouldn't it seem logical that life originates from the Sun?
In the sense that it supplies light for photosynthesis and warmth to keep water liquid on Earth, yes.
What would be the basis for the idea that it started randomly at some point in time and was passed on like a fire?
We don't know that it did happen "randomly".
Wouldn't it be one of the first things to test whether Earth life is bound to a region around the Sun?
Scientists would need to have a good incentive to believe that in order to have motivation to test it. Based on what we currently know about physics and biology, there is absolutely no reason that a human on a suitably climate-controlled, radiation-hardened spacecraft couldn't survive in interplanetary (or interstellar) space.
Post by: cleanair on 16/06/2021 01:27:57
Wouldn't one of the first things to test be whether Earth life is bound to a region around the Sun?No.
Because there's no mechanism by which it could be.
(And, of course, we know,by experiment, that neutrinos don't affect people.)
In the Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness/life, Neutrinos (from the Sun) would be the origin of life.
Neutrinos would interact with the weak force. Weak force interaction was measured for the first time in 2018 between protons and neutrons. Today's technology is not yet capable of measuring 'weak force' based interaction at the level of Neutrinos.
(2018) Physicists measure ‘weak force’ inside atoms for first time
https://www.futurity.org/weak-force-atoms-physics-1956822/ (https://www.futurity.org/weak-force-atoms-physics-1956822/)
(2015) Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness
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Surprisingly, weak force decoherence times over cellular distances are of the relevant dynamical timescale needed, suggesting that if any force is associated with the global properties in and between neurons (such as consciousness) it is the weak force. This finding concurs with a twenty year old theory that argues for a fundamental link between the weak force, electron neutrino and the biological cell. That theory also predicted the mass of the electron neutrino that is soon to be verified. The consequences for biology and future consciousness theories, of this radical change of paradigm, are considered.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f8f7/977fed4fc4f3663634bf3f2185f478b60cae.pdf (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f8f7/977fed4fc4f3663634bf3f2185f478b60cae.pdf)
In general: why would one assume that the Sun is not the giver of life, and that life is something independent of the Solar system?
[ Invalid Attachment ]
It seems crazy that no insect or bacteria as of today, went farther than the Moon.
Post by: Kryptid on 16/06/2021 06:15:23
In the Neutrino-biological cell theory of consciousness/life, Neutrinos (from the Sun) would be the origin of life.
Which, as I have pointed out multiple times, has absolutely no evidence supporting it whatsoever.
Neutrinos would interact with the weak force. Weak force interaction was measured for the first time in 2018 between protons and neutrons. Today's technology is not yet capable of measuring 'weak force' based interaction at the level of Neutrinos.
Which goes to show just how unlikely it is that it has any involvement with living systems.
In general: why would one assume that the Sun is not the giver of life, and that life is something independent of the Solar system?
No evidence, that's why.
Post by: cleanair on 16/06/2021 21:07:57
In general: why would one assume that the Sun is not the giver of life, and that life is something independent of the Solar system?
No evidence, that's why.
Is the evidence for the origin of life? If not, then one is to make an assumption.
From that perspective it is plausible (perhaps aught to be natural) to question whether it would be valid to assume that life is something independent from the Solar system.
Is there at least one clue that life is independent from the Solar system?
If not, would it not be logical that life most likely originates from the Sun when the origin would need to lay within the Solar system?
Post by: Kryptid on 16/06/2021 21:13:05
Is the evidence for the origin of life?
What evidence?
From that perspective it is plausible to question why it would be valid to assume that life is something independent from the Solar system?
Because nothing we know about biology would prevent life from leaving the Solar System. It's rather akin to going back half a million years and then asking why it would be valid to assume that humans can leave Africa.
Is there at least one clue that life is independent from the Solar system?
Yes: pretty much all of modern biology.
If not, would it not be logical that life most likely originates from the Sun when the origin would need to lay within the Solar system?
No. The answer to a question does not change simply because it is asked over and over again.
Post by: Bored chemist on 16/06/2021 21:15:27
Is there at least one clue that life is independent from the Solar system?It's hard to say, because it depends what you mean.
Most life certainly depends on the Sun's heat and light.
But that's not the same as saying that other heat and light sources- notably other stars- wouldn't work.
But there are strong clues that it is independent of neutrinos.
Post by: cleanair on 17/06/2021 17:11:51
Conclusion: the farthest that even a 🦠 bacteria has traveled (as part of a test) is around the 🌒 Moon.
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2021 17:43:41
Conclusion: the farthest that even a 🦠 bacteria has traveled (as part of a test) is around the 🌒 Moon.
No.
I think there are tortoises that are near 200 years old. About 6 billion seconds
The speed of the Sun through space is about 200 km/s
So that tortoise has travelled about 1.2E 15 metres
Post by: Eternal Student on 17/06/2021 19:14:51
To Cleanair: Even if life originated from the sun and had something to do with neutrinos (which seems unlikely), I think the main point people are trying to make is that it doesn't seem to need a steady stream of neutrinos any longer.
Mammals evolved from the oceans but land based mammals do not need to live and breath in the water any longer (it would kill them if they tried). There is little reason to think that neutrinos (or the lack of these) will be a problem on Mars, we don't seem to need them for anything now.
Post by: Kryptid on 17/06/2021 20:57:24
No.
Given context, I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is how far away from the Sun life has travelled. In that case, there are probably some deep Solar System probes with a few microbes clinging to them (assuming they survived that long).
Post by: Bored chemist on 17/06/2021 21:02:37
Given contextThe context here is that the OP doesn't even know what question they are asking.
Post by: cleanair on 17/06/2021 23:32:48
Hi all.
To Cleanair: Even if life originated from the sun and had something to do with neutrinos (which seems unlikely), I think the main point people are trying to make is that it doesn't seem to need a steady stream of neutrinos any longer.
Mammals evolved from the oceans but land based mammals do not need to live and breath in the water any longer (it would kill them if they tried). There is little reason to think that neutrinos (or the lack of these) will be a problem on Mars, we don't seem to need them for anything now.
Do you believe that life started at some point in time and has been passed on like a fire?
In the case that it isn't, then Neutrinos (as in the Neutrino-biological cell theory of mind) may be an 'actual' origin of life.
Post by: cleanair on 17/06/2021 23:35:55
No.
Given context, I'm pretty sure what they are talking about is how far away from the Sun life has travelled. In that case, there are probably some deep Solar System probes with a few microbes clinging to them (assuming they survived that long).
The answer to the question of the OP has been that there has been no official test with Earth life (bacteria, insects or animals) with a distance from Earth further than the Moon.
The argument that Earth itself travels through space wouldn't be relevant since the consideration as basis for the question of the OP is that Earth life may be bound to a region around the Sun.