Naked Science Forum
Life Sciences => Physiology & Medicine => COVID-19 => Topic started by: Drmarkf on 18/05/2020 10:31:53
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I see Manchester Airport Group has made wearing of gloves (and masks) a requirement for air travellers: https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/coronavirus/
Anyone know any evidence for this (IMHO) lunatic strategy? Have they consulted any of the expert U.K. bodies, such as PHE?
This is not a no-risk strategy, since gloves can increase transmission to the wearer and to others under some circumstances, especially by the untrained, and I don’t see any good guidance on the Manchester site. Here is some background on clinical glove usage, including why you need to perform hand hygiene before and after putting them on, why you shouldn’t wash hands wearing gloves, and why they don’t differ from bare hands as regards transmission among surfaces and other people or your own face:
http://professionals.site.apic.org/files/2013/09/DosDonts-of-Gloves.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/gloves.html
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr5116.pdf#page=19
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At least in part, the justification is this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater
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At least in part, the justification is this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater
Well that’s fine, and just as I thought.
I’ll stop worrying about it...
(Although I have emailed the content of my first post to a mate who’s a travel journalist)
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Expert body? PHE? Sadly, no longer true.
Masks reduce the probability of the wearer infecting others. If I were working at an airport I would know that half of the passengers may be as infective as the rest of the UK population, and the other half have been exposed for at least an hour to every airborne infection carried by any other passenger. So I'd be grateful of nobody coughed, spat or even breathed heavily in my direction.
Gloves prevent the wearer from acquiring infection from contaminated surfaces. By insisting on glove-wearing, I protect myself from claims that you were infected by my toilets and washbasins.
Having no great love of the drunk and unwashed, "security" queues, shops selling cosmetics, watches and suitcases (I've never understood cosmetics for healthy people, and doesn't every passenger already have a suitcase and a wristwatch?) and overpriced sandwiches, I fly from a rural grass strip to various city airports. We're miles from anywhere, only a dozen aircraft, but for the time being aviators and engineers are strictly segregated, no cash transactions, bring your own coffee (try that on "security"), only one person in the office at any time.... Pleased to see Manchester are doing their best, in a much more difficult environment.
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Gloves prevent the wearer from acquiring infection from contaminated surfaces. By insisting on glove-wearing, I protect myself from claims that you were infected by my toilets and washbasins.
No they don’t prevent the wearer acquiring infection, they just prevent the wearer from performing hand hygiene before they touch their own faces or pass the contamination on to some other object they touch.
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No matter what sensible people do, idiots will always find a way to harm themselves. Which is why I pointed out that gloves primarily protect the airport management.
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Gloves prevent the wearer from acquiring infection from contaminated surfaces.
People see nurses and doctors wearing gloves and think it's to stop the Dr catching things.
That's seldom the point. They are largely to stop the doctor carrying infection from one patient to the next- they change gloves between patients.
If you have a security officer who changes gloves after every passenger, then the gloves will be doing their job, and the queue will be longer than most flights.
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To look snappy and be in the current trend.
Gloves prevent the wearer from acquiring infection from contaminated surfaces. By insisting on glove-wearing, I protect myself from claims that you were infected by my toilets and washbasins.
No they don’t prevent the wearer acquiring infection, they just prevent the wearer from performing hand hygiene before they touch their own faces or pass the contamination on to some other object they touch.
Agree drfbrkd, people wearing vinal gloves whilst smoking is a rather good joke. How many gloves would yoy need to makeit through a supermarket trip.
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How many gloves would yoy need to makeit through a supermarket trip.
One pair, worn throughout the session in the shop. Scan and pack as I go, then remove gloves first then mask as I get in the car, turning them inside out (it takes practice to flip the mask without touching the outside, but a bit of HAZMAT training helps). Gloves on again at home, decontaminate packages and credit card, strip gloves and wash hands thoroughly. So far so good, but I will eventually succumb when COVID becomes endemic.
A better scheme now in operation is to order "click and collect" and have their guy load stuff into the car, then just HAZCHEM procedure when I get home. The Tesco guys are good - they don't open or close the hatchback, so the only possible contact transmission route is via the bag handles.
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(it takes practice to flip the mask without touching the outside, but a bit of HAZMAT training helps)
And most people lack the training, so they contaminate their hands.
But they think the gloves made them superheroes, so they don't clean stuff as they unpack...
I will eventually succumb when COVID becomes endemic.
And now you know how the gloves might help to bring about that endemic status.
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This gives me two options for survival: not wearing PPE and relying on the intelligence, training and civic sense of everyone else, with the inevitable consequence of an early demise since as you say they are all AntiSocial Morons, or wearing PPE and delaying the inevitable for a few days. As the sun is shining, I prefer the latter. And who knows, the ASMs may even die out and take their pestilence with them if I hang on long enough.
In the USA the ASMs shoot anyone wearing a mask, so your analysis would be more appropriate across the pond.
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How many gloves would yoy need to makeit through a supermarket trip.
One pair, worn throughout the session in the shop. Scan and pack as I go, then remove gloves first then mask as I get in the car, turning them inside out (it takes practice to flip the mask without touching the outside, but a bit of HAZMAT training helps). Gloves on again at home, decontaminate packages and credit card, strip gloves and wash hands thoroughly. So far so good, but I will eventually succumb when COVID becomes endemic.
But what about handelling your cards, do you have them open in the trolley or do you rummage in your pockets ? , do you decontaminate the trolley handle, is there a point to it ? Wash your clothes upon arrival at home ? Do you wear an apron ? Do you accept contamination of the products and your bags ? What about if there are only tills ? What about if you get an itch ?
I believe the answer will be wash hands !
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As I said, gloves on before entry and throughout the process. It is entirely possible that I contaminate the credit card, which is why I decontaminate it on returning home. I assume that everything outside my home, car or plane is contaminated (Civil Defence nuclear war training). I've spent enough time inside HAZMAT suits not to worry about the occasional itch - I just remember that I once applied to be an astronaut (in space, nobody picks his nose) and concentrate on getting the job done.
I don't shop where there are only manned tills - no point in standing in a queue of potential vectors. Which is a pity because Aldi's bacon is the best but the nearest self-scan Aldi is 30 miles away!
There's nothing new about contaminated environments and barrier nursing procedures. I have no doubt that I'll make a mistake one day, but having seen what happened to a buddy who caught a dose of COVID and was only saved by reading his pulse oximeter, phoning for an ambulance and spending 10 days in a coma, I'll continue to avoid it where possible.
Back to Civil Defence training for an illuminating aside. During a hot moment in the Cold War I was assigned as scientific adviser to the designated community leader of our village. Ex-artillery officer, he dismissed the earnest presentations from the Home Office apparatchiks with one memorable phrase "Have you ever actually seen civilians under fire? F***ing shambles." Anyway, he carried out his required search for a secure HQ and came up with a pub with a well-stocked, deep, stone cellar. His instruction to me was "When the balloon goes up, you and I will go to the Kings Head, lock ourselves in the cellar, and shoot any bugger that comes near us."
Radioactive fallout decays, viruses multiply.
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As I said, gloves on before entry and throughout the process. It is entirely possible that I contaminate the credit card, which is why I decontaminate it on returning home. I assume that everything outside my home, car or plane is contaminated (Civil Defence nuclear war training).
But why gloves then, you will be contaminated along with the clothing ?
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viruses multiply.
Only inside a compatible host.
In other circumstance they decay- very much like radioactivity.
The half-life varies considerably with circumstances. On a warm dry surface in bright sunshine, it's probably down to seconds.
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As I said, gloves on before entry and throughout the process. It is entirely possible that I contaminate the credit card, which is why I decontaminate it on returning home. I assume that everything outside my home, car or plane is contaminated (Civil Defence nuclear war training).
But why gloves then, you will be contaminated along with the clothing ?
Being a big boy*, I can remove my own gloves and pay a professional lady to remove my clothes. Sometimes she wears rubber gloves and nothing else, sometimes the whole nurse's kit. Then we get in the shower together. The Tesco ritual just adds a frisson of delayed gratification. And olive oil.
*she tells me so
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viruses multiply.
Only inside a compatible host.
of which there are around 68,000,000 in the UK, most of whom visit supermarkets.
In other circumstance they decay- very much like radioactivity.
The half-life varies considerably with circumstances. On a warm dry surface in bright sunshine, it's probably down to seconds.
hence gloves off in the car or plane. No point in carrying your sputum into my sterile environment.
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I could incur an on-the-spot fine of £500 for stepping off my property. As I have been “confined” since 24.03, I am, perhaps, less likely than most passers-by to infect anyone else, so I would be fined for putting myself at risk. Of course, one could argue that, if infected, I would put NHS workers at additional risk, but that is making a range of assumptions which may, or may not, be valid. A couple of days ago I was told of a local, elderly, man who was deliberately trying to become infected because he said he would rather die than live with the current restrictive situation. “Chacun son gout” I suppose.
If there is no further extension, I should be able to go out again on 30.06. In the meantime, I stay put, take what seem to be reasonable precautions and avoid dying of worry.
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of which there are around 68,000,000 in the UK, most of whom visit supermarkets.
Try to avoid bringing them home with you.my sterile environment.
And ... Superman has arrived.
The rest of us know that the environment in our car is not reliably sterile (WRT corona, never mind anything else)
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It's all a question of relative risk. As you say, the virus has a limited lifetime outside of a compatible living host. I don't know who lives in your car when you aren't in it, but mine seems not to be inhabited by any mammals, so it is less likely to deliver infectious aerosol than, say, Tesco's checkout queue.
Life is not entirely risk free and always ends in death, but some of us like to look before we cross the road.
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when you aren't in it, but mine seems not to be inhabited by any mammals, so it is less likely to deliver infectious aerosol than, say, Tesco's checkout queue.
It is plainly true that an uninhabited acr can't infect anyone.
So I don't know why you raised that point.
But unless you have a decontamination shower and a change of clothes in the car park, when you get into your car, having been hanging out with the people in the queue, it's absurd to think it's only your gloves that they coughed on.
Gloves still don't make you some kind of superhero who can dodge contamination of all the rest of you.
Thinking your car is "sterile" when you put your grubby self into it is the sort of "I had gloves on; I am invincible" problem that spreads the virus.
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Life is not entirely risk free and always ends in death, but some of us like to look before we cross the road.
A better analogy; some people don't look much; they just listen.
They think they are fine, because they listened carefully.
They get hit by a milk float.
Their precautions weren't as good as they thought they were, so they stopped paying attention- and got sideswiped.
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it's absurd to think it's only your gloves that they coughed on.
which is why I don't. They are however the garment that has most probably acquired infection by contact with contaminated surfaces.
Not sure where the "superhero" stuff came from. Have you been following Trumpf's "badge of honor" poppycock? Better a live coward than a dead hero (apart from Trump, that is.)
"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are very few old, bold pilots."
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Here's a true contamination story from the memoirs I probably won't publish.
Two cargo handlers were loading radioactive material at an airport "somewhere in Britain". One said the load straps felt sticky and he had a metallic taste in his mouth. They finished the job, closed up, then reported to the ramp manager that they thought they had been contaminated, so now we have three possible contaminees. The plane departs for a 1.5 hour flight, as nobody has spoken to the pilot.
Manager very properly called the airport fire brigade who are first responders to all contamination incidents. Fireman turns up with his Geiger counter and says "nothing I can see, but it might be low energy or alpha, so best get to the hospital". So he had been awake during the lecture, but now we have four contaminees. They call for a crew bus and all four plus the now suspect driver make their way to the hospital, having alerted the police so they get priority parking near the physics lab (boy, do we train these guys well!) Police sensibly call out the local fire brigade, and by now the Press and local radio have got hold of the story, so there's quite a crowd when the bus arrives.
The fuzz cordon off an area and several firefighters stand around the bus, wearing their HAZMAT kit and respirators. The sun is shining. Great newspaper and TV pictures. The physics department send out the duty investigator who by sheer luck of the draw is the only staff member who might be pregnant. She can't measure anything outside the bus so gets inside. We now have 6 or 6.5 potential contaminees, and the fire crew are beginning to wilt in the sunshine.
After much ado it is decided to take every person from the bus, plus various unconscious and unhappy firefighters, through the decon shower, bag up their clothes with instructions to take them home and burn them, and when they have recovered (anti-nuclear tea and biscuits work wonders) send them away in scrubs. IIRC the total was around 12 scrubbed bodies and a lot of incinerated uniforms.
At this stage my phone rings: advice please? As I'm 400 miles away I call the receiving airport and ask "Is the package intact?" "Yes." "Any contamination?" "No."
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As I said, gloves on before entry and throughout the process. It is entirely possible that I contaminate the credit card, which is why I decontaminate it on returning home. I assume that everything outside my home, car or plane is contaminated (Civil Defence nuclear war training).
But why gloves then, you will be contaminated along with the clothing ?
Being a big boy*, I can remove my own gloves and pay a professional lady to remove my clothes. Sometimes she wears rubber gloves and nothing else, sometimes the whole nurse's kit. Then we get in the shower together. The Tesco ritual just adds a frisson of delayed gratification. And olive oil.
*she tells me so
Hmmmmmm...
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Not sure where the "superhero" stuff came from.
It's a widely known problem in health and safety.
People act as if PPE gives them superpowers.
So, they think. for example that they think
the car or plane
is a
sterile environment.
And when I say
it's absurd to think it's only your gloves that they coughed on.
You say I don't.
even though you would have to think that in order to maintain the idea that by taking them off you are not
carrying your sputum into my sterile environment.
The really weird bit is that you know that it takes more than removal of a pair of gloves...
take every person from the bus, plus various unconscious and unhappy firefighters, through the decon shower,
But you ignore it all.
Are you going to get yourself a cape to go with them?
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Your idea of the superhero mentality is at odds with that of the selfstyled COVID heroes of the USA who parade through the streets with guns and attack anyone wearing a mask or gloves. Fortunately this is a selflimiting group of Trump-worshipping morons, but they will probably win the next presidential election before they die.
Fun story, probably apocryphal. Cabin crew tells Mohammed Ali to fasten his seat belt. MA says "Superman don't need no seat belt". Nice lady says "Superman don't need no airplane."
By all means be a hero. I'll stick to cowardice in the face of an invisible enemy.
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YOu can get stupidity on both sides.
Thinking your car is sterile is roughly as stupid as the Trump supporters- the difference is that if you think the gloves magically keep you safe, you are only likely to kill yourself.
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Who mentioned magic? Or absolute safety? But I have it on good authority (yourself) that
from: alancalverd on 19/05/2020 23:02:10
viruses multiply.
Only inside a compatible host.
In other circumstance they decay- very much like radioactivity.
The half-life varies considerably with circumstances. On a warm dry surface in bright sunshine, it's probably down to seconds.
which is a pretty good description of my car. It isn't a batmobile.
Of all the hundreds of aviators I have ever known, only three have had their lives saved by a parachute. One had the displeasure of bailing out of a flaming Spitfire; one was actually testing a new parachute that failed, so he deployed the reserve; one was flying a glider that broke up in a thunder cloud. Slim odds, but I would be foolish not to wear one in a glider or when doing aerobatics. To date, nobody has ever been saved from an airliner ditching by wearing a lifejacket, but I presume you watch the drill every time.
Is it foolish to wear gloves when handling known toxic or infectious material? Then why not wear them when handling potentially infectious material?
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I may be forced to revisit my views on masks in the workplace.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2020-05-21
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If it's been parked outside in the sunshine for a few hours, a car is probably pretty much guaranteed free of coronavirus- until you get into it.
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Then why not wear them when handling potentially infectious material?
It isn't a matter of wearing the gloves which is a problem.
It's a matter of thinking the gloves somehow make you invincible.
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You are the only person who seems to think that. Yesterday's TV images of Southend beach suggested that the bulk (I use the word advisedly) of the population think Speedos and bikinis make you invincible.
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You are the only person who seems to think that. Yesterday's TV images of Southend beach suggested that the bulk (I use the word advisedly) of the population think Speedos and bikinis make you invincible.
I don't need to go as far as Southend.
I can just go back in this thread and find someone who thinks that taking his gloves off magically keeps his car sterile.
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Your belief in magic astounds me. It's worth learning how to strip protective gloves correctly.
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Your belief in magic astounds me. It's worth learning how to strip protective gloves correctly.
I'm not the one who believes in it, but tell me, how else does taking your gloves (but not other contaminated clothing) keep your car sterile?
You say it happens.
There is no non-magical mechanism.
So you must believe in magic.
That's the problem with gloves; they make people believe they are magically safe.
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how else does taking your gloves (but not other contaminated clothing) keep your car sterile?
Who said it did? It started clean and I have flipped the items most likely to be contaminated by inhalation and contact, thus reasonably reducing but by no means eliminating the possibility of contamination. Not quite the same as working in a known toxic dust atmosphere, where we strip off and bag the coverall too, but I can change clothes at home and leave the car to sterilise itself in the sunshine. Good idea not to wipe nose on sleeve whilst driving. And of course if I'm working in a highly infectious area (not this time - I'm designated "vulnerable" in the present circumstances - but you know the drill) I wear the whole kit.
Risk assessment is the order of the day.
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Who said it did?
You
my sterile environment.