Naked Science Forum
General Science => General Science => Topic started by: vdblnkr34 on 31/01/2022 20:48:25
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Hello. 8)
If to blend propane with hydrogen. What would be better for burnout. To mix oxygen together or add it into the air next to burners?
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What are you trying to achieve?
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To mix gases together and burn it.
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To mix gases together and burn it.
WHY?
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different goals will likely require different approaches. are you trying to maximize temperature of the flame? amount of thermal energy per unit time? most efficient use of oxygen? trying to drive piston? etc. etc. etc.
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To begin introducing hydrogen with the gas burners. To operate burners on hydrogen/oxygen gas or propane/hydrogen or propane/hydrogen/oxygen. To reach higher flame what would be the best choice to inject oxygen before or after burner?
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To begin introducing hydrogen with the gas burners.
What gas burners?
The ones in my kitchen don't need an oxygen supply.
Converting to using pure hydrogen would probably take some planning.
Adding some hydrogen into the gas supply works.
https://hydeploy.co.uk/hydrogen/hydeploy-at-keele-live-pilot/
You still have not said WHY YOU WANT TO DO THIS.
If all you want is a hot flame, just look at how oxyhydrogen torches are already made.
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trying to make hydrogen/oxygen electric generator.
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Thats what is needed, a hot flame.
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Thats what is needed, a hot flame.
If you have hydrogen and oxygen and you want to make electricity, it is much more efficient to use a fuel cell.
Why would you want a hot flame?
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Hot flame is to power the boilers that will generate steam.
I dont know how fuel cell works, and what would be the difference if to use fuel cell or burners?
fuel cell is for internal combustion?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
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what would be the difference if to use fuel cell or burners?
As I said
If you have hydrogen and oxygen and you want to make electricity, it is much more efficient to use a fuel cell.
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Hot flame is to power the boilers that will generate steam.
If you have hydrogen and oxygen, you can make steam by simply burning the hydrogen in the oxygen. No need for a boiler! You can use a continuous burn to drive a turbine, or feed the mixture into an internal combustion (piston or Wankel) engine and ignite it in pulses.
But if you want to generate electricity, it's more efficient to use a fuel cell rather than a turbine and dynamo.
However all this presupposes that you have a source of hydrogen. There is no free hydrogen on this planet - it's mostly combined with oxygen as water, so we use electricity to separate the two elements. If you electrolyse water with an alternating current, the gas that comes off both electrodes is the ideal mix of hydrogen and oxygen, known to its fans as Brown's Gas.
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true, true. Browns gas is a good choice.
Also there is another way is to heat the steam to 500C and then pass it through high voltage capacitor or tesla coil sparks to ignite it right away. Probably Tesla coil idea is the best.
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Can i set steam on fire using plasma? Or it will work only with the electrical high frequency sparks.
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To begin introducing hydrogen with the gas burners. To operate burners on hydrogen/oxygen gas or propane/hydrogen or propane/hydrogen/oxygen. To reach higher flame what would be the best choice to inject oxygen before or after burner?
In rocketry, the finding is that gases burn and mix super well, so they take great care to gasify the propellants before burning them. Sometimes they have preburners that they run fuel rich and oxygen rich, and then they combine the outputs together. But in rocketry they usually start off with liquids, they can tend to burn rough, whereas gases tend to burn really well.
Thoroughly mixing gases together before you ignite them sounds like a BAD IDEA. If you mix in oxygen with hydrogen before lighting it, you tend to get a detonation. Do you want a detonation, because that's how you get one.
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If to use AC current, so they will be already mixed. Would that be ok?
Can i mix hydrogen with propane?
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Mixing fuels is usually fine, although be careful of two phase flow if you're mixing gas into liquid propane. Mixing fuel and oxidizer together virtually never goes well. You might get away with it if the quantities involved are very small, but the flame front will usually go back up to the point where they are mixed; and that can happen supersonically.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
It is only 40% to 60% efficiency. High power steam turbines are 80% to 90%, steam engines 40% to 70%. Will in the future fuel cell technology improve and provide 90% of power efficiency? No clue.
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Is it possible to burn 2kg of hydrogen per hour or it is a lot to deal with?
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Rockets burn more than 2 kg per second, cars burn around 2 kg per hour. No problem.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
It is only 40% to 60% efficiency.
So, let's compare it against a gas fired power station.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/548943/thermal-efficiency-gas-turbine-stations-uk/
OK about 48%
Pretty similar.
And then we can look at the whole quote from the wiki page, - including the bit you missed out.
"The energy efficiency of a fuel cell is generally between 40 and 60%; however, if waste heat is captured in a cogeneration scheme, efficiencies of up to 85% can be obtained."
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Yes, and the cost to do that is probably high. Probably it needs chemicals to run. How much to build a 1kw/h fuel cell generator?
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Yes, and the cost to do that is probably high. Probably it needs chemicals to run.
Just like a conventional gas turbine then.
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How much to build a 1kw/h fuel cell generator?
What does "1kw/h"
Mean?
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1kw per hour. speed
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what chemicals used for fuel cell?
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1kw per hour
Do you mean 1 kw hour or 1 kw?
It really would be better if you stopped and learned some science.
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what chemicals used for fuel cell?
It depends.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
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They are pretty expensive. 150Kw setup is around $80k to a $100k.
For $200k you can get good 500kw setup with a steam power station.
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You still haven't addressed the fundamental problem of the energy required to extract hydrogen from its stable compounds. The greenest method (possibly the only zero-carbon method) is by electrolysis of water, so you start with electricity, lose some energy in the electrolytic cell, lose some hydrogen in transmission and storage, lose more energy in combustion and heating water to make steam, and lose more energy in converting the steam power to electricity.
All you have devised is a method for wasting electricity.
There is value in storing and distributing electrolytic hydrogen for direct conversion into heat, motive power (internal combustion or gas turbine) or electricity (by fuel cell) wherever needed. This at least addresses the storage problem of renewable power sources, with maximum utility of the product, and minimum energy losses, using existing technologies.
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Yes, true. But the price I gave power losses calculated. That's the powers you will get for those prices.
Generation of hydrogen oxygen from water not cheap. Need something like platinum or gold plated material. But its very easy. No storage, all will go into a torch gun. Oxyhydrogen is better.
Generation of oxyhydrogen will be free of electrical cost. Used by dynamo machines. I came up with a nice high current generation setup.
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Does low carbon stainless steel react with hydrogen and oxygen?
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Generation of oxyhydrogen will be free of electrical cost.
Tell us more! The only stable form of oxyhydrogen is water, but it doesn't burn because the hydrogen is already fully oxidised.
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Generation of oxyhydrogen will be free of electrical cost.
If that's true, you just saved the wold.
Unfortunately, there's a mathematical proof that you are wrong.
A hundred years ago someone proved that your idea is impossible.
It is a mathematical proof. It does not depend on the details of your claim.
Do you understand that?
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Does low carbon stainless steel react with hydrogen and oxygen?
Not if they are all cold (eg room temperature or below).
But as soon as you ignite the mixture, it gets very hot...
Fortunately, hydrogen and oxygen react very well with each other.
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No storage, all will go into a torch gun. Oxyhydrogen is better.
This equipment is readily available and used for welding - particularly favored by divers because it doesn't produce any smoke or toxic fumes so can be used inside or outside a diving bell. I did post a link to one supplier but I guess it was removed as "commercial".
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Generation of oxyhydrogen will be free of electrical cost.
Tell us more! The only stable form of oxyhydrogen is water, but it doesn't burn because the hydrogen is already fully oxidised. And there is crap load of stuff mixed in water, which need to take into consideration.
I download the book. Electrolysis of water. Written in 196x by engineers. I think why did they separate fuel cell from hydrogen generator. If to combine generation and electrolysis of hydrogen together in one cell, that would be easier. The book says processes speed up under high pressure. And it is better to do that all in a cold water, below 0 would be great. and blah blah blah...
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please, for the love of all that is good, put some of your effort and attention into *learning* about thermodynamics before posting more about this subject
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Hydrogen does not getting mixed with electrolyte solution to produce electricity?
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How do I make a membrane at home?
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I think why did they separate fuel cell from hydrogen generator.
Same reason that we separate the car engine from the oil well.
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How do I make a membrane at home?
You don't.
Judging by your previous posts, you have no interest in actually learning anything and, unless you learn, three is no way you could do anything.
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I download the book. Electrolysis of water. Written in 196x.
Things have changed.
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How do I make a membrane at home?
You don't.
Judging by your previous posts, you have no interest in actually learning anything and, unless you learn, three is no way you could do anything.
Cant find good source.
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Need some help out here please.
There are several types. But the one i write about right now is widely used. www.fuelcellstore.com (http://www.fuelcellstore.com)
They made of proton emitting membrane. There is original manufacturer that cells them for 30cmx30cm for ~ $250, they offer 3 different types. And there is other companies that do sell those for 3cmx3cm starts at $20. The material from original manufacturer is more expensive. That mean other companies make it themselves. If they made it, so possible to make it someone else. The material they use is called polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE), it possible to buy those, they are white color, or they use custom made PTFE that is different from the one needs. Than needs a perfluoro sulfonic acid (PFSA) treatment (cheaper to buy than synthesize). How do they soak acid in the material, creating a steam of this acid or soak it in the liquid? IS there a special way to do?
Some companies add very black carbon and platinum oxide or just platinum on the white cloth, and have some golden cloth over white. That's may be alkaline hydrogen fuel cells. Do they ionize platinum or cloth, or anything else?
The membranes on the trucks are black color, original color of material is polytetrafluoroethylene after acid treatment is green/gray colors range. IS there anything else need to do? like proton gun or neutron cannon or something.
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How do I make a membrane at home?
You don't.
Judging by your previous posts, you have no interest in actually learning anything and, unless you learn, three is no way you could do anything.
Cant find good source.
https://www.khanacademy.org/
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How do I make a membrane at home?
You don't.
Judging by your previous posts, you have no interest in actually learning anything and, unless you learn, three is no way you could do anything.
Cant find good source.
https://www.khanacademy.org/
I found it on youtube some guy make membranes at home using a cloth, pvc glue and than chemically treating it. But chemicals that he uses are toxic.
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All materials are toxic.
You still have not really explained what you are trying to do.
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nothing in this case