Post by: championoftruth on 30/07/2022 13:34:02
Would it remove bacteria, viruses and protozoa?
Would it remove or reduce salinity if using seawater?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/07/2022 19:48:37
the question can it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?No.
It might remove a lot of impurities but not all of them.
Essentially, that's just a slow complicated way to filter the water.
Post by: championoftruth on 30/07/2022 21:07:52
the question can it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?No.
It might remove a lot of impurities but not all of them.
Essentially, that's just a slow complicated way to filter the water.
Complicated? 2 cups and a tissue.
Does not answer the question I ASKED
Post by: evan_au on 30/07/2022 23:47:18
Quote from: championoftruth
can it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?The average human adult needs about 2 liters of drinking water per day (if they are willing to give up sanitation).
Complicated? 2 cups and a tissue. Does not answer the question I ASKED
"2 cups and a tissue" will not produce 2 liters of fresh water per day, so "No" is still the answer.
Reason: It takes real energy to separate water from impurities.
- Capilliary action is driven by surface tension (which operates once) and/or evaporation (which doesn't deliver drinkable water).
- Extracting fresh water from sea water takes energy. In lifeboats, additional fresh water can be produced by a solar still or by a semi-permeable membrane and muscle power.
https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/desalination
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/07/2022 10:38:21
I think you will find that I did answer; and the answer was "no".the question can it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?No.
It might remove a lot of impurities but not all of them.
Essentially, that's just a slow complicated way to filter the water.
Complicated? 2 cups and a tissue.
Does not answer the question I ASKED
Post by: alancalverd on 31/07/2022 12:56:58
Having just failed a COVID test I can report that solid/liquid chromatography still works. The principle is that the solvent permeates (by capillary action) the column faster than any solute or suspension, so if you built a long chromatography column and put some contaminated water in at one end, the first liquid to appear at the other would indeed be clean water. It would be quickly followed by salty water and eventually by viruses, bacteria and whatever else you don't want, but the first few molecules would be pure H2O. Not a practical procedure.
Post by: evan_au on 31/07/2022 22:28:51
Quote from: alancalverd
Having just failed a COVID testSo you are saying that you failed, but the test method was a success...
- Get well soon!
PS: In Australia, demand for PCR capacity has dropped, so some laboratories are now routinely checking for COVID, Influenza (A & B) & RSV; several respiratory viruses circulating in our winter.
Post by: alancalverd on 31/07/2022 22:37:22
Apropos COVID, I've been working for some time with a group developing a rapid electronic breath test to replace nasal swabs and chromatography. I'd almost given up hope of making any money from the project a couple of months ago, but COVID has suddenly become fashionable again and is sweeping Europe like Beatlemania. It's an ill wind, as they say.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 31/07/2022 23:31:49
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 10:02:55
Capillary action uphill would be creditable as a theory.If capillary action made water run uphill and drip into a beaker it would be a perpetual motion machine.
So, those of us who are not Petrochemicals will see that it's impossible.
Petrochemicals won't see that...
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 10:11:20
Having just failed a COVID test I can report that solid/liquid chromatography still works. The principle is that the solvent permeates (by capillary action) the column faster than any solute or suspension,No it's not.
Plenty of materials "run on the front".
The process of chromatography uses an equilibrium (or near so) system.
What you are talking about is using it as a sieve.
You can strip a lot of stuff out of water using reverse osmosis.
The pressures involved are fairly high (40 to 60 PSI according to "the first reference I found with google") but, in principle could be generated using gravity.
Post by: evan_au on 01/08/2022 11:49:47
Quote from: Bored Chemist
If capillary action made water run uphill...That's what trees do - a fine capilliary in the trunk raises the water quite high, and transpiration does the rest...
But it uses solar power to drive the water cycle.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 11:59:49
Let me know when you get one to drip water into a beaker at the top.Quote from: Bored ChemistIf capillary action made water run uphill...That's what trees do - a fine capilliary in the trunk raises the water quite high, and transpiration does the rest...
But it uses solar power to drive the water cycle.
This, BTW, doesn't count because it's not powered by capilliary action.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttation
Post by: Petrochemicals on 01/08/2022 14:28:05
I tried squeezing tissue and liquid came out.Quote from: Bored ChemistIf capillary action made water run uphill...That's what trees do - a fine capilliary in the trunk raises the water quite high, and transpiration does the rest...
But it uses solar power to drive the water cycle.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 14:38:06
I tried squeezing tissue aSo, you made a force move through a distance.
You did work on the system.
Did you understand that in the context of of a perpetual motion machine?
Post by: Deecart on 01/08/2022 17:17:15
Capillary action uphill would be creditable as a theory.If capillary action made water run uphill and drip into a beaker it would be a perpetual motion machine.
So, those of us who are not Petrochemicals will see that it's impossible.
Petrochemicals won't see that...
It depends on the fluid you use.
So no "perpetual machine" problem (at least i dont like this kind of "proof" : "It would be a perpetual machine so it cant exists"; i think that it is not how scientists are reasoning).
Here the example that contradict your belief :
Superfluid helium
But you are right, for liquid water at standard temperature, capilarity cant make a liquid flow beyond the top of the tube.
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 17:36:24
Or "yes, but".
Having just failed a COVID test I can report that solid/liquid chromatography still works. The principle is that the solvent permeates (by capillary action) the column faster than any solute or suspension, so if you built a long chromatography column and put some contaminated water in at one end, the first liquid to appear at the other would indeed be clean water. It would be quickly followed by salty water and eventually by viruses, bacteria and whatever else you don't want, but the first few molecules would be pure H2O. Not a practical procedure.
That is what i was going to suggest but you stole the reply after the useless info by Borad Chemist.
The question was that by using a combination of capillary and chromatography.you could purify and reduce salinity.
There is no reason to limit the length of the connecting capillary tubes which could be wound in a spiral and then passing through a chromatography column.
The question is there ANY reduction in salinity by capillary action alone?
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 17:39:19
Quote from: championoftruthcan it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?The average human adult needs about 2 liters of drinking water per day (if they are willing to give up sanitation).
Complicated? 2 cups and a tissue. Does not answer the question I ASKED
"2 cups and a tissue" will not produce 2 liters of fresh water per day, so "No" is still the answer.
Reason: It takes real energy to separate water from impurities.
- Capilliary action is driven by surface tension (which operates once) and/or evaporation (which doesn't deliver drinkable water).
- Extracting fresh water from sea water takes energy. In lifeboats, additional fresh water can be produced by a solar still or by a semi-permeable membrane and muscle power.
https://www.usgs.gov/special-topics/water-science-school/science/desalination
I never specified the size of the cups. They could be giant beakers or giant tanks or containers.
semi permeable membranes are hard to get and very expensive.
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 17:40:30
The capillary action shown in the video could be said to be a syphon, thus gravity assist. A gravitational impetus can be used as a source of energy in any filter. Capillary action uphill would be creditable as a theory.
So capillary theory is fake your saying?
Post by: Deecart on 01/08/2022 17:55:22
Also, they interact strongly with water and tend to stay around water molecule due to van der waals forces.
Therfore, if you have some "capilarity flow", i prefer to say "adsorption" of liquid by some "sponge" (some matter with wide surface), permitted (the flow could be permitted to persists after fully adsorbed) by the evaporation of water (water evaporate and is replaced by the liquid water that stand around), then the diffusion of "salt" is much greater then the flow.
So, no gradient of water with less or more salt because salt diffusion is much greater than the flow.
I think we here do some confusion between the capilarity and the filtering possibility due to the tiny "pores" (they are not pores but some grid) you could have with some materials (here some paper towel).
What it sure here : The paper towel has not "pores" (or grid of cellulose) small enougth to permit only water to flow trought and not "salt".
And if it were the case (the pores are small enought), then you would have some salty water separated by some pure water and ... this would lead to some osmosis pressure that would lead water to counteract the water salinity, so a flow at the other direction counteracting the flow in the "capilarity" direction.
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 18:00:30
In my opinion, the na+ and cl-, so the salt you can find in water, are very tiny molecules.
Also, they interact strongly with water.
Therfore, if you have some "capilarity flow", i prefer to say "adsorption" of liquid by some "sponge" (some matter with wide surface), permitted (the flow is permitted) by the evaporation of water (water evaporate and is replaced by the liquid water that stand around), then the diffusion of "salt" is much greater then the flow.
So, no gradient of water with less or more salt.
I think we here do some confusion between the capilarity and the filtering possibility due to the tiny "pores" (they are not pores but some grid) you could have with some materials (here some paper towel).
What it sure here : The paper towel has not "pores" (or grid of cellulose) small enougth to permit only water to flow trought and not "salt".
You missed the point again.
Does capillary action from one cup to another cup via paper towel, etc reduce the amount of salt in the second cup and by how much or by what fraction or percentage.
Has as anyone every measured the salt concentrations in an experiment as I find very little research anywhere.
i have no interest at THIS point about filtration, etc.
Post by: Deecart on 01/08/2022 18:14:25
But what you have to consider is that your "design" can not work continuously.
If you put some towel joining 1000 pots of water, then this will work 1 time.
Soon all towels are wet, there is no flow anymore.
So you can say : Yes but i will use the evaporation of water in the towels to maintain the flow.
Yes, sure. but salt do not evaporate and you will have more an more salt accumulating in the towels.
In fact your design permit you to concentrate the salt.
At least when there is no water anymore you end up with towels full of salt.
Now, if you think that salt will not follow the water, i dont understand why.
The diffusion speed of na+ and cl- is very high and i am pretty sure the water will remain salty even in the number 1000 pot.
Post by: Deecart on 01/08/2022 18:19:04
Does capillary action from one cup to another cup via paper towel, etc reduce the amount of salt in the second cup and by how much or by what fraction or percentage.
I dont think it will reduce the amount of salt, flow is less then diffusion speed.
If you could drastically lower temperature and therefore lower the diffusion speed of salt, perhaps, but because liquid water is constrained by the 0°C limit (so around) then there is no way to reduce the salinity in this way.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 01/08/2022 18:29:26
As much effort as you put in.The capillary action shown in the video could be said to be a syphon, thus gravity assist. A gravitational impetus can be used as a source of energy in any filter. Capillary action uphill would be creditable as a theory.
So capillary theory is fake your saying?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 20:11:53
Here the example that contradict your belief :You need to explain what is in that video which you think is a perpetual motion machine.
Because I watched it and I didn't see anything that violated the conservation of energy.
Is it that you don't understand how that fountain works?
(it has a heater in it)
"Superfluid helium, a state of matter existing at low temperatures, shows many remarkable properties. One example is the so called fountain effect, where a heater can produce a jet of helium. This converts heat into mechanical motion; a machine with no moving parts, but working only below 2 K. Allen and Jones first demonstrated the effect in 1938, but their work was basically qualitative. "
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1361-6404/aa818c?gclid=Cj0KCQjw852XBhC6ARIsAJsFPN1ozHeoQcvJEe_Ph7I_H4g0UsgIGF5Kxz8QfURtCDFSspUlW_B5RYwaAmV8EALw_wcB
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 20:15:54
I dont think i missed anything.
But what you have to consider is that your "design" can not work continuously.
If you put some towel joining 1000 pots of water, then this will work 1 time.
Soon all towels are wet, there is no flow anymore.
So you can say : Yes but i will use the evaporation of water in the towels to maintain the flow.
Yes, sure. but salt do not evaporate and you will have more an more salt accumulating in the towels.
In fact your design permit you to concentrate the salt.
At least when there is no water anymore you end up with towels full of salt.
Now, if you think that salt will not follow the water, i dont understand why.
The diffusion speed of na+ and cl- is very high and i am pretty sure the water will remain salty even in the number 1000 pot.
That is not i asked and it has nothing to with perpetual motion.
say for instance the salinity was reduced by 20% in the second cup.
Then the 2nd cup could be used as the starting cup up for a third cup to reduce salinity by another 20%.
and so on.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 20:24:35
say for instance the salinity was reduced by 20% in the second cup.Why would that happen?
I realise you don't understand this but, if it did happen, you would have made a perpetual motion machine and, since we know that is impossible, we know that your idea is wrong.
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 20:30:49
say for instance the salinity was reduced by 20% in the second cup.Why would that happen?
I realise you don't understand this but, if it did happen, you would have made a perpetual motion machine and, since we know that is impossible, we know that your idea is wrong.
You are mixing me up the other guy. i never mentioned PMM
I am only interested in reducing salinity using capillary action.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 20:39:01
I am only interested in reducing salinity using capillary action.And I am explaining why it is impossible.
If it worked as you are proposing, then it could be used to make be a perpetual motion machine.
But we know that is impossible.
So we know that you are wrong.
Why do you not understand this?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 20:49:59
Imagine that letting the water soak through the paper continuously removed the salt.
Imagine making boxes round the first and last cups in the chain.
The vapour pressure of water over pure water is higher than that over salt water.
So the liquid in the least salty solution would evaporate and travel through the pipe and condense in the first cup.
And you could use that stream of water vapour to run a turbine- maybe not a big heavy one, but that's not the point.
And that turbine would provide free energy
But w know that's impossible so we know your idea doesn't work.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 21:26:31
OK. Here's the bit that I guess you are somehow not getting.
Imagine that letting the water soak through the paper continuously removed the salt.
Imagine making boxes round the first and last cups in the chain.
The vapour pressure of water over pure water is higher than that over salt water.
So the liquid in the least salty solution would evaporate and travel through the pipe and condense in the first cup.
And you could use that stream of water vapour to run a turbine- maybe not a big heavy one, but that's not the point.
And that turbine would provide free energy
But w know that's impossible so we know your idea doesn't work.PMM.jpg (55 kB . 1190x770 - viewed 1392 times)
Once again I don't understand your obsession with PMM and forcing it on me.
In your diagram there is no connection between output and back to input.
This videos shows all that is needed.
in this case water from 2nd glass is going into 1st glass with the tissue.
question is if water in 2nd glass is salty will it be less salty in 1st glass.
please dont mention PMM again... arrrghhhhh.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 21:29:09
Once again I don't understand your obsession with PMM and forcing it on me.Because it answers your question, without having to do any experiment.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 21:30:01
In your diagram there is no connection between output and back to input.There is.
The black pipe at the top.
Post by: championoftruth on 01/08/2022 22:04:54
In your diagram there is no connection between output and back to input.There is.
The black pipe at the top.
Its his diagram and should be no connection. see the video
Post by: evan_au on 01/08/2022 22:55:29
Quote from: championoftruth
say for instance the salinity was reduced by 20% in the second cup.You can interpret this the right way or the wrong way.
Then the 2nd cup could be used as the starting cup up for a third cup to reduce salinity by another 20%
Wrong way: If each paper towel reduces the concentration of salt by 20%, then after 5 paper towels, the concentration of salt would be 0%
Right Way: If each paper towel reduces the concentration of salt by 20%, then there is 80% of the salt left.
After 5 paper towels, there is 0.85 salt left, or 33% of the original concentration.
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 23:43:35
So; you don't understand the word "if".In your diagram there is no connection between output and back to input.There is.
The black pipe at the top.
Its his diagram and should be no connection. see the video
Post by: Deecart on 02/08/2022 00:44:32
Here the example that contradict your belief :You need to explain what is in that video which you think is a perpetual motion machine.
Because I watched it and I didn't see anything that violated the conservation of energy.
I never said it is a perpetual motion machine.
It is you who dit it.
Quote from: bored chemist
If capillary action made water run uphill and drip into a beaker it would be a perpetual motion machine.
So here we have something acting like what you suppose it cant exists.
Here we have capillary action made superfuid helium run unhill and drip into a beaker, "so it is a perpetual motion machine" (this part is what you say it is...)
Of course it is not a PMM.
Quote
Is it that you don't understand how that fountain works?
I dont care about the fountain, so you were not able to see something else in this video ?
Quote from: wikipedia
Many ordinary liquids, like alcohol or petroleum, creep up solid walls, driven by their surface tension. Liquid helium also has this property, but, in the case of He-II, the flow of the liquid in the layer is not restricted by its viscosity but by a critical velocity which is about 20 cm/s. This is a fairly high velocity so superfluid helium can flow relatively easily up the wall of containers, over the top, and down to the same level as the surface of the liquid inside the container, in a siphon effect as illustrated in figure 4. In a container, lifted above the liquid level, it forms visible droplets as seen in figure 5https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_helium-4
.
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/08/2022 10:22:29
Do you understand why that's not the same as what I said?
If capillary action made water run uphill and drip into a beaker it would be a perpetual motion machine.
Post by: championoftruth on 02/08/2022 10:43:30
Obviously the second method is correct.Quote from: championoftruthsay for instance the salinity was reduced by 20% in the second cup.You can interpret this the right way or the wrong way.
Then the 2nd cup could be used as the starting cup up for a third cup to reduce salinity by another 20%
Wrong way: If each paper towel reduces the concentration of salt by 20%, then after 5 paper towels, the concentration of salt would be 0%
Right Way: If each paper towel reduces the concentration of salt by 20%, then there is 80% of the salt left.
After 5 paper towels, there is 0.85 salt left, or 33% of the original concentration.
Post by: championoftruth on 02/08/2022 10:44:52
Here the example that contradict your belief :You need to explain what is in that video which you think is a perpetual motion machine.
Because I watched it and I didn't see anything that violated the conservation of energy.
I never said it is a perpetual motion machine.
It is you who dit it.Quote from: bored chemistIf capillary action made water run uphill and drip into a beaker it would be a perpetual motion machine.
So here we have something acting like what you suppose it cant exists.
Here we have capillary action made superfuid helium run unhill and drip into a beaker, "so it is a perpetual motion machine" (this part is what you say it is...)
Of course it is not a PMM.QuoteIs it that you don't understand how that fountain works?
I dont care about the fountain, so you were not able to see something else in this video ?Quote from: wikipediaMany ordinary liquids, like alcohol or petroleum, creep up solid walls, driven by their surface tension. Liquid helium also has this property, but, in the case of He-II, the flow of the liquid in the layer is not restricted by its viscosity but by a critical velocity which is about 20 cm/s. This is a fairly high velocity so superfluid helium can flow relatively easily up the wall of containers, over the top, and down to the same level as the surface of the liquid inside the container, in a siphon effect as illustrated in figure 4. In a container, lifted above the liquid level, it forms visible droplets as seen in figure 5https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_helium-4
.
Can you start your own thread about perpetual motion machines instead of hijacking mine?
Post by: Bored chemist on 02/08/2022 11:14:03
I think you will find that I did answer; and the answer was "no".the question can it be used make dirty water into clean drinking water?No.
It might remove a lot of impurities but not all of them.
Essentially, that's just a slow complicated way to filter the water.
Complicated? 2 cups and a tissue.
Does not answer the question I ASKED
Post by: alancalverd on 02/08/2022 14:29:16
Post by: championoftruth on 03/08/2022 21:52:23
That video was interesting for just one reason: it ended with more liquid depth in the left hand (receiver) glass than the right (source). Magic, lopsided gravitation, or dishonest editing?
IT'S THE SAME OR A PERSPECTIVE effect.
Anyway no answers to the original question.
All i got was some weirdo going on about perpetual motion machines with helium and Borad just saying no without any facts or figures and going on about PPM as well and telling me you can't get free energy. whicch i never said i would.
I actually intend to do the experiment using saltwater but simply use the taste test as i don't have salt concentration meters and TDS meters are very inaccurate.
i will use just 2 cups on 1 night and the the next morning i will take cup 2 as the master cup and and empty cup3
and then cup3 as master cup with cup4 as empty cup and so on.
i urge everyone to do the same experiment.
i propose to put 1 level teaspoon of salt in starting cup 1.
and use a standard kitchen towel folded with 5 folds as the capillary medium.
Post by: evan_au on 03/08/2022 22:09:48
Quote from: championoftruth
TDS meters are very inaccurateI saw a very cheap TDS meter (Total Dissolved Solids) at my local hardware store, claiming 2% accuracy or ±1ppm from 1ppm to 1000ppm.
- That sounds a lot more accurate than human taste-buds
- And less liable to become a self-fulfilling prophecy
If you want to improve on taste-buds, and have a Digital Volt-meter, you can set it to Ohms range
- Now that really does have some accuracy problems:
- For sampling both glasses, you need to have the probes:
- The same distance apart
- The same angle
- The same depth in the water
Frankly, the TDS meter sounds like the only reasonable way to go...
When you report your results, please also report on:
- How much water originally went into the first glass in the evening
- How much was left in the original glass in the morning
- How much made it to the other glass
- And hence, how much was lost (to wetting the paper towel, or evaporation)
- Whether the water height in the second glass was higher than the height remaining in the first glass (a level photo would be good...)
Post by: Bored chemist on 03/08/2022 22:37:00
Anyway no answers to the original question.Yes there is.
No.
Post by: Petrochemicals on 03/08/2022 23:34:52
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=24631&t=salt-concentration-vs.-water-depth#:~:text=The%20easy%20part%20is%3A%20yes,can%20be%20lowered%20that%20way.
Now you may think the capillary action would facilitate less salty water rising, but as I already said, the glass in the video is more than likely acting as a siphon. If you used capilliary action uphill and then somehow induced a momentary pressure in the medium of capilliaration in the higher vertical position to induce venting of liquid and facilitate extraction for collection, this may well serve as a potential means of desalination of dihydrogen monoxide liquid.
Post by: championoftruth on 04/08/2022 11:28:57
Now I have not read this all but it seems to suggest salt water goes up with depth. There seems to be many variables
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=24631&t=salt-concentration-vs.-water-depth#:~:text=The%20easy%20part%20is%3A%20yes,can%20be%20lowered%20that%20way.
Now you may think the capillary action would facilitate less salty water rising, but as I already said, the glass in the video is more than likely acting as a siphon. If you used capilliary action uphill and then somehow induced a momentary pressure in the medium of capilliaration in the higher vertical position to induce venting of liquid and facilitate extraction for collection, this may well serve as a potential means of desalination of dihydrogen monoxide liquid.
Well done on the techobabble. You have learned well from ST: Voyager. ;D
The glass acting as a siphon is dubious as it is the tissues that carry the water. In siphons you have to SUCK up water into the siphon tube otherwise nothing will happen.
We are talking about mobility of OH- AND NA+ AND CL- ions.
Any slight difference could be used.
Post by: championoftruth on 04/08/2022 11:32:29
Anyway no answers to the original question.Yes there is.No.
That was a declaration not an answer.
It was also mixed up with free energy rubbish.
Post by: ketozop on 27/08/2022 11:43:10
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/08/2022 12:06:22
You failing to understand something doesn't make it rubbish.Anyway no answers to the original question.Yes there is.No.
That was a declaration not an answer.
It was also mixed up with free energy rubbish.
Post by: championoftruth on 27/08/2022 13:31:19
You failing to understand something doesn't make it rubbish.Anyway no answers to the original question.Yes there is.No.
That was a declaration not an answer.
It was also mixed up with free energy rubbish.
i was referring to the free energy rubbish. not the other bits.
Post by: Bored chemist on 27/08/2022 14:16:15
And I was referring to the fact that you are dismissing as "rubbish", the reason why we know the answer to the question.You failing to understand something doesn't make it rubbish.Anyway no answers to the original question.Yes there is.No.
That was a declaration not an answer.
It was also mixed up with free energy rubbish.
i was referring to the free energy rubbish. not the other bits.
Once again I don't understand
Get back to us when you work it out.