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Offline ukmicky

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driving lessons /survey
« on: 26/11/2005 16:13:38 »
Are driving lessons a big con designed just to make money out of those wishing to take there test.

When I passed my test just over 20 years ago according to my instructer at the time,they reckoned it took on average 10hours of tuition to pass your driving test. It took me eight hours, eight driving lessons to reach the required level before I passed my test and that was with the cost of each lesson at £7.50 an hour if I remember correctly. And most of my friends who I asked who took there tests 10 or more years ago on average passed there tests after around ten hours of tuition.

My daughter is currently learning to drive and these days they reckon on average it takes about 35 hours for average 18/19 year old at £24 UK pounds an hour before they reach the required standard.

Why the difference?

Itís almost the same test with just one extra reversing manoeuvre, almost the same standard of driving required, but why the extra 25 hours of tuition and now at 24 pounds an hour. Itís a lot of money.
Itís a big con if you ask me.

How many hours of tuition did it take you before you were allowed to take your test and then pass(hopefully) and what year did you take it in.
Is there much diference in other countries


Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 26/11/2005 16:47:13 by ukmicky »


 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #1 on: 27/11/2005 23:38:28 »
It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure it was only 6-8 lessons.
Just as an extra to this thread, none of my friends when I was younger took more than 2 attempts to pass their test & most passed 1st time. Not only do people seem to take a lot more lessons these days, but the pass rate is much lower. People that I know who have taken their tests in the last 10 years or so have taken 2,3 or 4 attempts to pass. None of them has passed 1st time although I don't think their driving is any worse than people I knew when I was younger.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #2 on: 29/11/2005 14:15:26 »
Best drivers past second time !!!

Hmmm...yep..mefinx it was about 9 or 10 lessons...with perhaps a couple thrown in for good measure prior to my second test.

At the time, I would have like to have taken one of those intensive week things !

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #3 on: 29/11/2005 19:34:28 »
Seriously - there was a driving school where I used to live called the Impact School of Motoring and their sign advertised "crash courses available"
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #4 on: 30/11/2005 00:57:09 »
It just seems to me that it all a big money making scam, either that or the standard of driving instructors these days has taken a nosedive. Thereís no reason why it should take 25 extra hour of tuition these days compared to when I learnt because the test has hardly changed.

P's

doc
I remember impact school of motoring, when i used to live near wembley ,
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« Last Edit: 04/12/2005 19:14:29 by ukmicky »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #5 on: 04/12/2005 16:32:59 »
Michael - I used to live in Harrow. That's where I saw it
 

sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #6 on: 04/12/2005 16:40:18 »
i just passed my test last year (20 lessons £36 pound a pop) but althought he practical may not be hugely diffrent we now have a theory test and a hazard awareness my instructor used part of my lessons to prepare me for these aswell with homework and cdroms i passed quite quickly in 3 months on my second attempt but firmly belive i should have passed on the first the only reason i didnt was slow takeoff from roadside which could have slowed other driver (road was deserted but whatever) the test may be the same but the rules are alot tighter. also did you know that if you pass your test now your only allowed three point in the first two years get four and your banned for six months and have to retake all your tests


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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #7 on: 04/12/2005 18:05:18 »
quote:
also did you know that if you pass your test now your only allowed three point in the first two years get four and your banned for six months and have to retake all your tests


I most certainly did not realise that
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #8 on: 04/12/2005 19:14:58 »
doc Its a small world, as they say:)

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« Last Edit: 04/12/2005 20:43:42 by ukmicky »
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #9 on: 14/12/2005 17:12:01 »
Apparently driving test duded have to fail a certain percentage of drivers a week! I don't know if it is true but that is what I was told. So you are probably best taking a test on the monday.

Also I think sharkeyandgeorge.... you got ripped off. My sister's lessons are £16 and so are everyone elses I know. MEh

I will pass 1st time withought any lessons *cough cough* Althuogh they may be putting it up to 18 to take your test. And you may have to have 40 lessons is what they are trying to do.

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Offline caalm

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #10 on: 20/12/2005 17:07:34 »
I just took my first attempt at the practical test, and failed! Everybody I've spoken to (including my instructor) tell me that the test is being made stricter every year. Although what is being tested is the same, you could fail today for something that in earlier years would only have raised an eyebrow. I failed because I touched the kerb in the reverse-into-side-road maneouvre, no mistakes allowed there. My driving otherwise was as good as could be (just got 2 minor faults) However, I was also warned that at one place, when I moved off from a stationary position, there was a car behind that had to slow down when it caught up with me. Never mind the fact that I reached the maximum speed limit for the road (30mph) before the guy caught up, and that he was doing 50mph and had to slow down to 30mph. I'm supposed to watch out for other people's mistakes and the responsibility of ensuring that an accident doesn't happen lies with me (irrespective of whether the other party is drunk, on drugs, going at twice the speed limit or just being a jerk!.
One mistake is enough today to fail, and the mistakes I'm talking about here are things that almost ALL seasoned drivers who hold a licence probably commit several times a day. They have made it difficult for new drivers to get a licence, in order to compensate for the plenty of bad drivers that have managed to get a licence in the last 20-30 years. I read a report that stated that 90% of licensed drivers (who got their licence before theory test was introduced) failed to clear the theory test without studying (although you would expect them to pass without studying, by virtue of their experience of driving). The report also said that based on observation of driving skills, 50% of the licensed drivers would 'DEFINITELY' fail the test if they were to take it today. I've found that most drivers do not adhere to the rule of 'Should not cross the arms on the steering' while turning, yet if you do it 2-3 times in the test today, you fail!
So many people touch the kerb to get an idea of how far the wheel of the car is, yet if you do it once today in the test, you fail! If you wait too long at a roundabout, you fail for hesitation, if you squeeze in between two cars, you fail for aggression. You have to get it JUST RIGHT, the only problem is that the definition of JUST RIGHT depends on the tester, and that varies with the personality of an individual.
There is no choice however, I will have to spend the £1000 pounds and the 6-8 months to get a licence, sometimes I even think if it's worth it if, like me, one plans to drive in the UK only for a few years before returning to one's native country (bear in mind that I already have a licence for my native country).
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #11 on: 20/12/2005 22:00:36 »
Hi pal. cheers for the reply,  

There's still not much difference going by what you've written, it basically the same test and you fail for the same reasons now as you would have when i took my test 22 years ago.


I still reckon its a big money making scam designed so the instructors and schools can make as much money out of the pupils as possible.
Take my daughters instructor for instance, according to him it takes between 40 to 50 lessons before somebody is ready for the test. That's 30 to 40 more lessons than it took when i passed.
My daughters instructor wouldn't even allow her drive away from the house or back again until she had completed 8 hours of tuition and during that time she was restricted to the same side roads. When i learnt to drive it was straight on to the main roads and i drove away from my house and back again on every occasion. OK the main roads may be a bit busier now, however hammersmith roundabout was just as busy then as it is now.

As for the theory, i've  failed the theory test every time ive put the practice test cd in my computer ,but since i passed there have been lots of new signs and regulations brought in.
You also pick up bad habits after you pass your test and for a newly qualified driver things like crossing yours hands could be deadly , however my driving ability and hazard perception  has improved so much since i passed my test that most of them arn't dangerous for me to use and in general are only used when its safe to do so.:)
   
Maybe it would be better and cheaper for you and my daughter to take your tests in another country in the EU. I wonder how hard it is in france for instance.
 
ps Good luck with your next test

Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 20/12/2005 22:06:09 by ukmicky »
 

sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #12 on: 28/12/2005 11:46:33 »
small point but crossing your arms is not a failable fault i do it all the time and did it on my test ( ive got a small driving arc due to excellent power steering ) indeed inspectors are not allowed to fail you for this however the problem with crossing your arms is many people dont do it properly take it to far round and as soon as you do you verge into diminished control where you are not in a position to immediatly respond to changes on the road that definatly is a fail

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Offline Simmer

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #13 on: 28/12/2005 12:56:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky


I still reckon its a big money making scam designed so the instructors and schools can make as much money out of the pupils as possible.
Take my daughters instructor for instance, according to him it takes between 40 to 50 lessons before somebody is ready for the test. That's 30 to 40 more lessons than it took when i passed.



Maybe, partly, but I think the main reason is that the safety culture has changed over the last twenty years.  Motoring is now just about the most dangerous thing people are required to do.  About 40,000 deaths across Europe last year and forty times that many with significant injuries. God knows how many accidents in all that equates to but it must be several millions.  

Clearly many drivers are not really competent but the economy depends on them getting behind the wheel anyway!  Sooner or later they will automate the whole thing (Giove A launched today!) but until then all they can do is improve the training.

Cars have been made easier to drive and protection in case of an accident have been improved but really the only way to bring the process into line with modern expectations is either to improve the quality of driving or automate it.
 

drkev

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #14 on: 29/12/2005 02:51:32 »
Learning to drive and driving tests etc are a big scam! My driving instructor told me that most are scam artists. I passed my test 3 1/2 years ago after 6 lessons at £10 a lesson. I got 100% on my theory test and taught myself the theory element with a good road sign book and a practice question book to get used to the types of questions asked.

Driving assessors do not have to fail a certain number each year, there is no quota. But some are complete w@nkers who are miserable b@stards and will fail you for even looking odd.

My friend failed because a car pulled out in front of him and he had to do an emergency stop (I know because I was in the back for moral support!) Never mind the fact that He spotted the other car and performed a correct emergency stop and avoided the car completely. The examiner failed him for observation. Not his fault the prik pulled out in front of him and obviously his observation was good or He wouldn't have seen it to avoid it!

The average number of lessons now is 60 at an average cost of £20 a lesson (phoned my instructor and asked him who by the way is still charging only £10 a lesson and averages 15 lessons to get students through their test. Every one of his students has passed first time!)

I now have to sit categories C1 and D1 to drive my new ambulances at a cost of £4000 and 80 hours this is a fu*king con because my mate doesn't have to do it as He passed his test in 1997. So it is OK for him to drive a 7.5 tonne vehicle with no training but I can't drive a 4 tonne vehicle and I am an advanced Police trained blue light user.

Along with the rising cost of running a car, it is simply the Government's way of reducing car usage. Don't believe me? Ask them how much they make each year from congestion charging!

I was glad I would never have to take another driving test ever again but ho hum I have 2 in February for my Cat C1 and D1 AND I can't even tow a caravan yet some crusty old fart who can't even see beyond his bonnet can!!!

Live long and Love life

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #15 on: 10/01/2006 06:03:22 »
How old do you have to be in the UK to take a drivers test? Are you required to take driving lessons?


« Last Edit: 04/03/2008 02:36:01 by Carolyn »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #16 on: 10/01/2006 06:07:24 »
Hi Carolyn....Certainly not required to take lessons but it is of course adviseable. 17 is the age when you can drive on the road legally.



Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #17 on: 10/01/2006 06:12:01 »
Thanks Neil.  Here in USA you get a learners permit (must drive with an adult 21 years or older in front seat for one year) at 15 after passing a written test.  At 16, if you pass the actual road test, you get a real drivers license.  This could actually be part of my insomnia problem, as I have a 17 year old that stays on the road constantly.

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 10/01/2006 06:18:32 by Carolyn »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #18 on: 10/01/2006 06:21:33 »
15 !!!.....WOW...even accompanied by an adult !!..and 16 when you pass the test !!...cripes !!...



Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline airkilometres

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #19 on: 10/01/2006 10:57:27 »
''Never in the history of driving instruction has so much bovine scatology been uttered by so many about so few''

Says Sir Winston Churchill, looking down from the heavens.
 

Offline hedgehog

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #20 on: 11/01/2006 08:14:19 »
going by a lot of the driving I see out there where some people do not even posses the control skills to be able to keep to a 30mph speed limit for example, or the ability to understand how talking on a mobile while driving can kill somebody and whats this latest craze, to drive with the fog lights on illegaly in non fog. I believe some people when they say they have only had a handful of lessons, it really does show.

Who would put thier son/daughter on the road today with only 6 hours behind the wheel. Certainly not the driving test examiner.
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #21 on: 11/01/2006 13:19:59 »
I agree - driving laws in US are much to relaxed.  Although my daughter was allowed to have a license @16, we didn't allow her to have any passengers for the first year.

« Last Edit: 04/03/2008 02:36:58 by Carolyn »
 

Offline The Chief

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #22 on: 12/01/2006 19:53:19 »
And you consider yourself professsional UK Micky? With the attitude you have for your childs' learning experience I would not be surprised if you are having some "social" problems!

The driving test and methods of learning to drive have changed quite markedly, especially since 1995. Prior to then almost anyone could have passed the driving test due to one thing alone - the system of marking of faults. Back then you could commit as many (minor) driver errors as you liked and would not fail, however, nowadays if you commit the same fault 3 times that can and almost always does become a serious fault. 1 serious or dangerous fault means fail!!!

Think back honestly and ask yourself if you notice anything different about driving when you passed your test to driving now?
I passed my test around the same time as you about 22 years ago. I know for a fact that if I drove on a driving test with those same standards I passed with back then that I would now fail the test quite drastically - and deservedly so.

Take a look at CRASH statistics and make your own mind up as to whether or not a tougher testing and training regime was required.

As for your comparison to the price of driving lessons, I almost laughed out loud at your incredibly stupid comment...think how much a new car cost to purchase, insure, fuel costs etc etc...the list goes on. Have you asked your own insurance company how much it would be for your learner driver daughter to be added to your insurance or better still ask how much it would cost if she had her own car...then faint!!!

Driving instructors are a very easy target to take a pop at, it is all to easy to make inaccurate comparisons with when we learned to drive to todays roads and standards required to pass. As for price, I reckon if instructors charged more like £50 an hour it would reflect their profession and the increased cost of living more accurately and this would be much fairer.

I would not want my sons on the road alone with 6 - 10 hours of training not when I have to drive to and from work and see all the other idiots who subscribe to your way of thinking driving on the roads today...take some responsibility man for your kids and get your daughter properly prepared for the test.

Incidently, after reading your mince, I took a look at http://www.dsa.gov.uk [nofollow] you should take a look at the DL25 that is the examiners marking sheet, thank goodness I don't have to take a test again now. The DSA is the Driving Standards Agency, a government body and part of the Dept for Transport, the website makes interesting reading.

Finally, you should take a look at the European parliament too, legislation is being passed right now which means that all drivers will be re-assessed every 5 years, hoorah, it might just keep idiots like you off our roads and they might just become a safer place again.

Stay safe out there.

The Chief.

« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 19:56:19 by The Chief »
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #23 on: 12/01/2006 20:11:39 »
Chief

Thank you for your input, i think .

And After i have pick myself up off the floor and composed myself, which i hope will allow me to reply in a non aggressive manner i shall respond.
[:0][:(!]


But I would like to say before I get down to responding to your attack , that after reading your reply in full , if your standard of driving is anything like the manner of  your reply then I wouldnít like to be a passenger in you car or a victim of your road rage.



Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 23:12:58 by ukmicky »
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #24 on: 12/01/2006 22:24:50 »
So much to reply too, but so little interest in doing so due to the manner of your response.


quote:
 And you consider yourself professional UK Micky?

Am I a professional driver, yes I suppose I am as I drive for a living, I also hold a hgv class 1 licence which I donít use as I  donít enjoy driving large vehicles anymore.
_____________________________________________________________
 
quote:
  With the attitude you have for your childs' learning experience I would not be surprised if you are having some "social" problems!


Got me their, but only because I feel my response would be inappropriate for posting on this forum.

But after reading your reply, I feel if you feel I have social problems then maybe my thoughts on your mental instability could also be just.
________________________________________________________________
quote:
The driving test and methods of learning to drive have changed quite markedly, especially since 1995. Prior to then almost anyone could have passed the driving test due to one thing alone - the system of marking of faults. Back then you could commit as many (minor) driver errors as you liked and would not fail, however, nowadays if you commit the same fault 3 times that can and almost always does become a serious fault. 1 serious or dangerous fault means fail!!!

Think back honestly and ask yourself if you notice anything different about driving when you passed your test to driving now?
I passed my test around the same time as you about 22 years ago. I know for a fact that if I drove on a driving test with those same standards I passed with back then that I would now fail the test quite drastically - and deservedly so.  

____________________________________________________________

The standards in my day were quite tough even though I donít seem to remember them as easy as you seem to. However even twenty years ago lots of people failed their first tests, so the test wasnít that easy.  I failed my first for being too cautious.
Anyway my post started with the line ďAre driving lessons a big conĒ Not, driving lessons ARE a big con.
   
_____________________________________________________________
quote:
As for your comparison to the price of driving lessons, I almost laughed out loud at your incredibly stupid comment...think how much a new car cost to purchase, insure, fuel costs etc etc...the list goes on.


Maybe It would be laughable if it didnít cost 17 year olds  £1500 to pass their tests and more if they are unlucky enough to fail the first time.

New car, Are you mad.. (donít answer that I already know the answer ) What 17 year old  buys a new car when they have just passed their test, they use mums or dads.
 
quote:
Have you asked your own insurance company how much it would be for your learner driver daughter to be added to your insurance or better still ask how much it would cost if she had her own car...then faint!!!


I did Admiral charged me £200 pounds which is quite reasonable

 
quote:
    Driving instructors are a very easy target to take a pop at, it is all to easy to make inaccurate comparisons with when we learned to drive to todayís roads and standards required to pass. As for price, I reckon if instructors charged more like £50 an hour it would reflect their profession and the increased cost of living more accurately and this would be much fairer.


So thatís £400 for my daughter and her instructor to go round in circleís for her first 8 lessons does that sound reasonable to you

reprint from earlier
ďMy daughterís instructor wouldn't even allow her drive away from the house or back again until she had completed 8 hours of tuition and during that time she was restricted to the same side roads. When i learnt to drive it was straight on to the main roads and i drove away from my house and back again on every occasion. OK the main roads may be a bit busier now, however Hammersmith roundabout was just as busy then as it is now.Ē

____________________________________________




 
quote:
I would not want my sons on the road alone with 6 - 10 hours of training not when I have to drive to and from work and see all the other idiots who subscribe to your way of thinking driving on the roads today...take some responsibility man for your kids and get your daughter properly prepared for the test.


I wouldnít like my daughter on the road on her own after 6 to 10 hours of driving tuition either. I'm not be happy for my daughter to even drive down the road with her instructor next to her, however I have to be sensible and allow her to lead her own life ,so I would be ok  if she was to pass her test after 20 or so lessons because my daughter is a very sensible, level headed and highly intelligent person,and I know numerous people who have passed their tests at around the twenty hour mark who are able and competent drivers

 
quote:
 Incidentally, after reading your mince, I took a look at http://www.dsa.gov.uk you should take a look at the DL25 that is the examiners marking sheet, thank goodness I don't have to take a test again now. The DSA is the Driving Standards Agency, a government body and part of the Dept for Transport, the website makes interesting reading.

After reading your mince,  (doesn't seem appropriate as I quite like mince)i  shall do the same and at the same time i will see if they have a comparable sheet from 20 years ago

 
quote:
  Finally, you should take a look at the European parliament too, legislation is being passed right now which means that all drivers will be re-assessed every 5 years, hoorah, it might just keep idiots like you off our roads and they might just become a safer place again.



More legislation, more crap from Brussels,  more ways to control us and make us poorer

 
quote:
 Stay safe out there.
You too

:)

PS We have just changed my daughters driving instructor to someone who was recommended to us through a number of sources and as it turns out also happens to be a friend of my wife's.(women) she charges ten pound less than bsm, whom she once worked for, and on average her pupils pass after 25 hours half the time that bsm like to take before they put their pupils through.  

« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 22:45:57 by ukmicky »
 

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #24 on: 12/01/2006 22:24:50 »

 

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