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the timing must increase unless the arm contracts.
I've just shown you (for the n'th time) that the speed of light through the MMX arm aligned with the cable going round the Earth must on average be faster in one direction than the other
and for the "ticks" of that arm to remain in sync with the "ticks" of the perpendicular arm, it has to contract
More importantly though, the main impact on the relative speed of light to the apparatus in opposite directions comes from the Earth's movement round the sun rather than from its rotation
and no amount of voodoo can overcome that either by imagining that the rules out in space don't also apply down on the Earth
anything that adjusts to equalise the speeds would lead to measurable distortions, absolutely trashing GPS system measurements.
Quote from: David Cooper on 16/08/2017 20:29:31 the timing must increase unless the arm contracts.The timing does increase in the east to west direction because you are slowing down.
The electrons travel through less space per cycle.
Light travels through less space also.
This is why they are confounded. It is the cycle time of the electron that controls timing while c is the available time. The electron at c would have no cycle timing.
No the light is constant. The distance traveled is not if you are discussing relativity.
Quote from: David Cooper on 16/08/2017 20:29:31and for the "ticks" of that arm to remain in sync with the "ticks" of the perpendicular arm, it has to contractNo the ticks by distance is more and less by direction to complete the rotation. If we are discussing relativity.
Quote from: David Cooper on 16/08/2017 20:29:31More importantly though, the main impact on the relative speed of light to the apparatus in opposite directions comes from the Earth's movement round the sun rather than from its rotationThen you do not understand clocks ticking at the same rate at sea level.
Do you consider gravity voodoo?
SOL is constant.
Measurable distortions create the need for GPS systems.
The timing reduces for that direction.
They travel through more space per cycle.
Quote from: GoC on 17/08/2017 15:26:49Quote from: David Cooper on 16/08/2017 20:29:31 the timing must increase unless the arm contracts.The timing does increase in the east to west direction because you are slowing down.The timing reduces for that direction.QuoteThe electrons travel through less space per cycle.They travel through more space per cycle.When?When deceleration happens tick rate increases. You are decelerating east to west. Your intercept point has less distance not because anything physical contracts but because light is independent of the source being intercepted.t does not matter how fast you are co-moving and creating light in the same direction light can only move at c. But an object on an intercept course will shorten the distance without the need for physical contraction. Light being independent of the source. It remains c but you have to add the speed of the intercepting object.So east to west your tick rate increases and the distance measured by light is shorter. The shorter distance is matched by the increased tick rate to measure the speed of light in a vacuum the same in both directions.Your confused because your not recognizing relativity properly. No wonder you are confused.Quote from: David Cooper on 18/08/2017 00:21:05We're talking about light moving along - not electrons.They are confounded in every frame. The use of the term confounded means they both adjust ( Light distance and tick rate) to measure the SOL the same in every frame. Well now I suspect that might be more relevant on a planet than in space because the tick rate is the same at sea level rotating with and against Earth rotation around the sun. Local measurement in gravity may be different than space lacking gravity. A planet Might create a situation with gravity that the north and south directions of light are not affected by rotation and travel in a straight line in those directions. So we have a point of origin that speed in space does not. So the mathematics for physical contraction might not be valid for a planet. If that is the case only the voyagers moved out of the solar systems gravity rotation and dilation. Would light clocks tick the same by orientation relative to mechanical clocks? Curios.Quote from: David Cooper on 18/08/2017 00:21:05The light is constant through space (ignoring a slight slowing in all directions in a gravitational field). The distance it travels in the MMX arm does not magically contract to a shorter length than the length of the MMX arm. The arm has to contract for the distance to contract.You might be confusing light being constant with distance being constant. Space dilates in GR and distance for light increases in SR with equivalence of speed and gravity for tick rate. The arm does not have to contract if the distance between two objects is decreasing.Quote from: David Cooper on 18/08/2017 00:21:05If we're discussing reality and relativity (as opposed to than voodoo and pseudo-relativity), an uncontracted arm of the MMX would lead to longer ticks than on the perpendicular arm.If we have an origin to get back to the longer distance is exactly offset by the shorter distance east and west. Clocks tick at the same rate suggests an origin and negates the voodoo physical contraction. Two directions in the same optical cable (with different phases still would have a difference in distance traveled and not return synchronous in the east west direction but would in the north south directions.Quote from: David Cooper on 18/08/2017 00:21:05I understand it, and unlike you I understand that it's irrelevant.Considering clocks tick at the same rate at sea level with and against Earth's orbit irrelevant? In pure relativity clocks should tick faster retro orbit. And you consider that irrelevant?
We're talking about light moving along - not electrons.
The light is constant through space (ignoring a slight slowing in all directions in a gravitational field). The distance it travels in the MMX arm does not magically contract to a shorter length than the length of the MMX arm. The arm has to contract for the distance to contract.
If we're discussing reality and relativity (as opposed to than voodoo and pseudo-relativity), an uncontracted arm of the MMX would lead to longer ticks than on the perpendicular arm.
I understand it, and unlike you I understand that it's irrelevant.
The tick rate increases east to west because of deceleration vs. acceleration reducing the tick rate west to east. If you are using timing as tick rate.
One of us is viewing this backwards.
At rest vs. velocity of the electron the at rest atom of hydrogen's electron travels through less space per cycle. This increases the tick rate at rest vs. the slower tick rate with speed. Like the body counts every calorie the electron counts all distance traveled through space.
When deceleration happens tick rate increases. You are decelerating east to west. Your intercept point has less distance not because anything physical contracts but because light is independent of the source being intercepted.
It does not matter how fast you are co-moving and creating light in the same direction light can only move at c. But an object on an intercept course will shorten the distance without the need for physical contraction. Light being independent of the source. It remains c but you have to add the speed of the intercepting object.
So east to west your tick rate increases and the distance measured by light is shorter. The shorter distance is matched by the increased tick rate to measure the speed of light in a vacuum the same in both directions.Your confused because your not recognizing relativity properly. No wonder you are confused.
They are confounded in every frame. The use of the term confounded means they both adjust ( Light distance and tick rate) to measure the SOL the same in every frame.
Well now I suspect that might be more relevant on a planet than in space because the tick rate is the same at sea level rotating with and against Earth rotation around the sun.
Local measurement in gravity may be different than space lacking gravity. A planet Might create a situation with gravity that the north and south directions of light are not affected by rotation and travel in a straight line in those directions.
So we have a point of origin that speed in space does not. So the mathematics for physical contraction might not be valid for a planet. If that is the case only the voyagers moved out of the solar systems gravity rotation and dilation. Would light clocks tick the same by orientation relative to mechanical clocks? Curios.
You might be confusing light being constant with distance being constant. Space dilates in GR and distance for light increases in SR with equivalence of speed and gravity for tick rate. The arm does not have to contract if the distance between two objects is decreasing.
If we have an origin to get back to the longer distance is exactly offset by the shorter distance east and west.
Clocks tick at the same rate suggests an origin and negates the voodoo physical contraction.
Considering clocks tick at the same rate at sea level with and against Earth's orbit irrelevant?
In pure relativity clocks should tick faster retro orbit.
And you consider that irrelevant?
Quote from: GoC on Yesterday at 13:24:43The tick rate increases east to west because of deceleration vs. acceleration reducing the tick rate west to east. If you are using timing as tick rate.Light doesn't accelerate or decelerate - it goes at a constant speed.
That sounds reasonable now that it's clear that you're talking about an electron cycling around something rather than just an electron floating about on its own.
There's no deceleration. The light simply has less distance to travel through space to "complete" the westward circuit because it doesn't actually complete a circuit, whereas light doing the circuit eastward has to do more than a circuit
An object on an intercept course does not shorten the distance - from the frame of reference in which it is at rest, it imagines that the distance has shortened, but from the frame of reference it's moving through, it shortens nothing other than itself
The confusion is all yours, but the only way to show you that would be to write a program to demonstrate it. Given how long this conversation has gone on, it might be quickest just to do that rather than having every proven point rejected by you out of hand on the basis or irrelevant factors, misunderstood theory and miscellaneous voodoo.
That doesn't matter - the numbers only add up correctly with length contraction, so if you're ruling it out, you're going against mathematics.
No it isn't - the tick rate can vary without you being able to measure that change. You're basing that on an assumption that the sun is stationary, and that's seriously unlikely to be correct.
So long as there's length contraction, all accurate co-moving clocks will tick in sync regardless of orientation (unless a gravitational field messes with that - I don't know if a light clock arranged vertically is guaranteed to stay in sync with one arranged vertically, but I suspect it still would).
Within a frame of reference, c is constant and so is distance.
The MMX is moving through the frame being used for the analysis and it has to contract for that frame (and if that frame is the absolute one, the contraction must be absolutely real).
What you're trying to do is have an object's movement contract space not merely for itself, but for another frame, and that shows that you still have a fundamental misunderstanding of relativity which is preventing you from making further progress.
No it isn't - the distance is always longer than that because you aren't allowed to change the speed of the apparatus between the two legs of the trip for the light
They should and doubtless do
It is irrelevant because you're misapplying it, not understanding that it is only the case if the Earth is not moving along through space at all but is merely rotating
There is a depth of understanding you are missing. Relativity is a machine and you are missing some parts in your understanding. Your first instinct is to deny there is anything missing in your understanding. This is a block to your depth. Reason deeper. Take in more facts to your opinion.
Sorry I recognized electrons never float around on their own along time ago.
Quote from: David Cooper on 19/08/2017 00:40:39There's no deceleration. The light simply has less distance to travel through space to "complete" the westward circuit because it doesn't actually complete a circuit, whereas light doing the circuit eastward has to do more than a circuitThe airplane atomic clocks prove that to be incorrect.
Simultaneity of relativity is different. You understand something is wrong and of course you blame it on relativity. It is actually your view of relativity that needs a deeper understanding.
A good start from your current position might be view it in energy rather than speed. You have a battery in space that mass connects to allow motion. That battery is c zero point energy. The battery is constant, Electrons all move at the same rate in a frame. Electrons always move at c.
Now there is the voodoo. Light has no power to shorten a physical object and neither does mathematics.
Measurements using light to measure light is meaningless. That is the voodoo. You cannot measure a system if what you are measuring is part of the system.
No you are using mathematics without all of the information corrected for your model.
Your model does not take that into account. No matter what clock you use your still measuring light with light in your clocks that is the meaning of confounded between the electron and photon.
This is why earlier I said available energy verses kinetic energy used. The total energy density for tick rate is dictated by the motion of the earth, sun, galaxy and universe. But the energy on the Earth is dictated more by gravity than by rotation as proven by clocks ticking at the same rate with and against the earths orbit. This creates a stationary position for light to return to in space on the Earth.
So East and West changes its energy density for tick rate of a clock in motion relative to the Earth (proven by atomic clocks on airplanes). There is also a distance change for light because light is independent of the source. No physical contraction. You cannot follow the math if your model is incorrect and claim accuracy.
By observation they do stay in synchronization but that may be because of gravity creating a North South position of a fixed frame for light to return. The medium for light rotating with the Earth which causes gravity to go straight down also. The medium for light and gravity would be the same but different aspects of the spectrum. Increased Dilation of the spectrum energy would be the gravity and bend the light. Relativity is more than just following math you also have to follow the correct model. Math is a tool and a very good tool but it cannot prove a theory. it can only disprove a theory. Your contraction of mass and my decrease in distance because of independent of the source both follow math. I do not believe light can contract mass.
This is where your understanding of relativities independent of the source is a failure to understand distances correctly.
Clocks ticking at the same rate on a planet creates a fixed position in latitude for light to return. This may be different in space for clocks orientation than on Earth when you follow the model. That is more likely than light forcing mass to contract.
Quote from: David Cooper on 19/08/2017 00:40:39No it isn't - the distance is always longer than that because you aren't allowed to change the speed of the apparatus between the two legs of the trip for the lightYou are not changing the speed of light you are changing the distance light travels because light is independent of the source.
You are confusing a frame's fixed physical distance with the distance light has to travel between in each direction. They are different because light is independent of the source and constant. That does not mean it is constant relative to the physical frame. The relative speed of light is different by direction.
But observation proves the orbit in retro grade tick at the same rate as with the orbit. You are just ignoring facts to maintain your belief system.
If clocks tick at the same rate at sea level all over the planet earth than the earth's affect on light is as if it is stationary and only rotating. Clocks and the photon are confounded so light returns to a stationary position in the MMX. The Null result.
We begin with a coin.Ann's line of sight is perpendicular to the face of the coin, she sees a circle.Ben's line of sight is 45 deg to the face of the coin, he sees an ellipse.Louie questions, how can the coin be circular and elliptical at the same time?Vinnie answers, it can't, but the images can, since Ann and Ben are in different locations. The coin has 2 different locations, 1 relative to each observer. The locations are not properties of the coin, but perceptions of the observers.
Motion is a change of position for an interval of time. Therefore each observer has a unique sequence of images as their perception of a moving object. The motion is not a property of the object, but a changing relation of positions between object and observer. Each observer experiences a private/local/unique perception of events in their world. Their descriptions will be different. The idea of being contradictory only occurs if the perceptions are erroneously applied to the moving object.
But only one of them is right, and the claims of most frames once stripped of the conditionality clause are false.
I would like to know more about your belief in physical contraction. Explain it to me in terms of a fiber cable going around the Equator. Pick a point any point and allow light to travel around the globe in both directions. East to west will return before west to east in the same cable.
You claim the cable is shorter in the east to west direction but it is the same cable.
But only one cable is right, and the claims of most contracted physical objects once stripped of the conditionality clause is false.
And using the same cable strips the claim of contracted physically as false. The cable cannot be contracted physically and not be contracted physically at the same time.
Ok now the same situation North and south. A fiber cable at sea level. Are we going with the not contracted?
Move the planet through space, and then the contraction is determined by working out which direction each bit of cable is moving through space and which direction it's moving through space in
They are contradictory if they cannot both/all be true.
The coin has specifications including material, form, and dimensions. The coin never has an elliptical shape, which would make it a reject.
If the observers were replaced with cameras, and each formed a photo of the coin, one image would show a round coin, the other would show an elliptical coin. The mfr of the coin can prove it was formed round producing the die used.
The photos are formed from light reflecting from the coin to the lens. Science can explain the difference in the photos, in terms of camera positions and light propagation. Do you know the difference between a thing and an image of the thing?
That would affect tick rate by direction and we established clocks tick at the same rate all over the globe independent of orbit around the sun.
Clocks should tick slower with the orbit than against the orbit. This is not observed.
Contraction is a faith issue. You cannot measure the contraction because your measuring stick becomes contracted. I recognize that same issue in GR dilation but we can observe dilation.
So you must be saying the same thing I do when light in the East and West fiber cable circles the Earth one falls short and one falls long in the circumference. In the cable's contracted state light auto corrects to match the North to south rate.
And there is no way to prove the physical contraction model. No way to prove light slows down as a model.
Combine the Earth's rotation with it's orbital movement and the clocks vary in their ticking rates. Then consider that the Earth may be moving faster through space at one point of its orbit than the opposite point and you have them all slowing down and speeding up throughout the year.
If you mean on one side of the Earth versus the other, a difference will occur, but it cannot be measured independently of a frame of reference, and you'll get a different result depending on which frame you use. If you assert that the sun is stationary, you will not measure clocks ticking more slowly on one side of the Earth than the other, but if you assert that the sun is moving, you will.
If you can show that contraction of object A must occur for frame B and that object B must contract for frame A, you know that either object A or B must be contracted. Not being able to tell which of them is contracted does not overturn the necessity for one of them to be contracted. That is why it is not a faith issue - to believe that neither is contracted is to believe in the impossible.
The contraction of the cable round the Earth does not reduce the distance the light has to travel to complete a circuit.
The contraction of the MMX arm does have an effect though on the time taken for light to get along it and back because it reduces the distance to the mirror (which is the only thing that can bounce the light back).
That contraction is the only thing that can adjust the tick rate for that path to keep it in sync with the perpendicular one.
Particle accelerators have already proved it through relativistic mass. Circular orbits must length contract on all scales.
If there's length-contraction acting on it
So I guess the solar system moving and the galaxy moving affects the tick rate by direction also? While I agree the total energy available by relativity is affected the tick rate at sea level not so much. You would have that fiber cable contracting and expanding by the Earth second.
Quote from: David Cooper on 23/08/2017 01:06:25If you mean on one side of the Earth versus the other, a difference will occur, but it cannot be measured independently of a frame of reference, and you'll get a different result depending on which frame you use. If you assert that the sun is stationary, you will not measure clocks ticking more slowly on one side of the Earth than the other, but if you assert that the sun is moving, you will.You can by sending a signal from the north or south pole to register the same simultaneity of relativity. Same with an atomic clock in the airplane relativity experiments. 12 hours at a different rate going ~1000 mph is within our ability to measure a difference.
Depending on the direction of the light an object can appear contracted or elongated. Consider your 0.5c. If light is closing on the physical object when the first photon hits the front of the object it falls off the back of the object at 2/3rds of the distance of the objects true length. No photon can travel further down the object than 2/3rds way. Why? Because when the first photon hits the rear moves forward to intercept each photon at 2/3rds the objects distance. If you add physical contraction than it becomes one half of the objects length. Now lets look at the other direction for light. The photon hits the back of the object and co-travels with the object at 0.5c. The length would appear to be twice the objects physical length.
Can you have physical and visual contraction to have the math work?
Quote from: David Cooper on 23/08/2017 01:06:25The contraction of the cable round the Earth does not reduce the distance the light has to travel to complete a circuit.Are you suggesting light travels at different speeds in a contracted and non contracted direction? I can understand the closing and chasing directions for the mirror but if you add a change in the SoL I am not going to be a fan of that model.
Time and distance is c. Dilated time slowing tick rate by increased distance between energy particles in GR is a fractal change. SR is not a fractal change (speed by distance acceleration gravity vs. stationary attraction gravity). SR is distance through space energy independent of the object producing the light wave.
Quote from: David Cooper on 23/08/2017 01:06:25That contraction is the only thing that can adjust the tick rate for that path to keep it in sync with the perpendicular one.Yes that is the only thing for your model. You are unwilling to challenge that model. I understand.
You believe relativistic mass increases with speed while not really understanding the cause of gravity. You believe the increase in gravity is the increase in mass. While the truth is the increase in gravity is the decrease in energy available to the particle.
Consider a BH. A sun grows to the point where the attraction on the surface of the sun becomes the speed of light. Energy can no longer keep atoms apart. They coalesce to the center removing all energy from the interior. There is no gradient to the center as gravity. The entire BH is a gravity particle. So it is the evacuation of energy that causes attraction of mass. Same thing with dilation of energy to the center of mass causing gravity. Energy is more dilated the center of mass. Decreases tick rate because of distance between energy particles increases. The photon is confounded by those distances to measure the same speed of light. That is the fractal arrangement in GR.
There is much more going on than the simplistic model you perceive.
Quote from: David Cooper on 23/08/2017 00:43:06If there's length-contraction acting on it The coin is not moving in the example. It's only intended to show that images are not a property of the objects.