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Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/10/2013 17:35:33Too much side irrelevant talk and silly denials that say absolutely nothing : an obvious insult to the obvious undeniable facts on the subject:I did say , on many occasions here ,that atheist Nagel's proposed alternative to reductionism is also a false conception of nature , that's obviously doomed to fail as well ,didn't i ?.Besides , it is an obvious and an undeniable fact that reductionism in science is a false conception of nature that has been superseded even by the physical sciences, modern physics themselves ...See what Sheldrake said here above on the subject .An obvious and undeniable fact that has been proven to be true by many scientists , thinkers , philosophers , by the physical sciences themselves , by Nagel, by Sheldrake ....That's not just a statement ,honey : to try to prove to you this fact as being true , is like trying to prove to you that the sun rises from the East ...come on, be serious .Once again, has science proper even proved the "fact " to be true that reality is exclusively biological physical ? come on, don't be an idiot, sorry = absolutely not= never = ever ,simply because nature or reality cannot be a matter of exclusively biological physical processes or physics and chemistry , otherwise they absolutely cannot account for such processes such as life , consciousness, human cognition .....let alone their origins evolution and emergence = exclusive reductionist or even non-reductionist naturalism can certainly not explain consciousness, life , human cognition ...no way .Science proper itself will therefore reject materialism as untrue and untenable ...no doubt about that .Quantum physics , for example, have already been challenging materialism as being untrue and untenable since the 1920's ...I can elaborate some more on this , and can even provide you with some relevant quotes from prominent scientists '. thinkers' work on the subject ...concerning the obvious undeniable evidence that proves materialism to be false , beyond any shadow of a doubt :But , that's so an obvious and an undeniable fact that it would be an utter waste of time to try to discuss it any further , simply because it's so obvious that materialism is false , and is therefore challenged by the mental side of nature , by consciousness, life ...their emergence origins and evolution ..............If you cannot see all that , if you cannot see obvious things and facts as such , there is no point in going any further with this discussion,for obvious reasons, i am afraid .Just try to read that Nagel's book, that Sheldrake's book at least then :I am not gonna waste my time to try to make you get rid of your denials , that's neither my job to do , nor a relevant to this discussion thing to do either , that's your job and responsibility you gotta deal with , not mine .Don't worry your pretty little head about it, Don. I'll be fine if the Complete Works of Rupert Sheldrake are missing from my science library. But I'm glad you realize the atheist, Nagel, is not really your boy. He might be cranky when it comes to science, but he's almost rational. I would suggest Deepak Chopra but, dang it, he's the wrong religion.
Too much side irrelevant talk and silly denials that say absolutely nothing : an obvious insult to the obvious undeniable facts on the subject:I did say , on many occasions here ,that atheist Nagel's proposed alternative to reductionism is also a false conception of nature , that's obviously doomed to fail as well ,didn't i ?.Besides , it is an obvious and an undeniable fact that reductionism in science is a false conception of nature that has been superseded even by the physical sciences, modern physics themselves ...See what Sheldrake said here above on the subject .An obvious and undeniable fact that has been proven to be true by many scientists , thinkers , philosophers , by the physical sciences themselves , by Nagel, by Sheldrake ....That's not just a statement ,honey : to try to prove to you this fact as being true , is like trying to prove to you that the sun rises from the East ...come on, be serious .Once again, has science proper even proved the "fact " to be true that reality is exclusively biological physical ? come on, don't be an idiot, sorry = absolutely not= never = ever ,simply because nature or reality cannot be a matter of exclusively biological physical processes or physics and chemistry , otherwise they absolutely cannot account for such processes such as life , consciousness, human cognition .....let alone their origins evolution and emergence = exclusive reductionist or even non-reductionist naturalism can certainly not explain consciousness, life , human cognition ...no way .Science proper itself will therefore reject materialism as untrue and untenable ...no doubt about that .Quantum physics , for example, have already been challenging materialism as being untrue and untenable since the 1920's ...I can elaborate some more on this , and can even provide you with some relevant quotes from prominent scientists '. thinkers' work on the subject ...concerning the obvious undeniable evidence that proves materialism to be false , beyond any shadow of a doubt :But , that's so an obvious and an undeniable fact that it would be an utter waste of time to try to discuss it any further , simply because it's so obvious that materialism is false , and is therefore challenged by the mental side of nature , by consciousness, life ...their emergence origins and evolution ..............If you cannot see all that , if you cannot see obvious things and facts as such , there is no point in going any further with this discussion,for obvious reasons, i am afraid .Just try to read that Nagel's book, that Sheldrake's book at least then :I am not gonna waste my time to try to make you get rid of your denials , that's neither my job to do , nor a relevant to this discussion thing to do either , that's your job and responsibility you gotta deal with , not mine .
I can't help but notice a pattern with you. People actually think about what you say and try to respond in some logical way. I recall several interesting responses, for example, to your frequent comments regarding what physics has proved regarding consciousness. And you never address comments like that directly. There's never any counter argument that specifically addresses assertions point by point, or even one you feel worth pursuing. You either totally ignore it, or just restate your original argument that materialism is a false misconception of nature which has hijacked science proper and so on. Or you respond by saying they are "confused" "don't get it" "irrelevant" "stupid" or "childish" (and the best!) "twisting your words." I suspect you do this when you are backed into a corner, or are just too lazy to come up with a response - "I cannot be bothered by people who do not accept my brilliance without question!"
Please try to be consistent. On the one hand you say there is no such thing as science, and on the other you tell a professional scientist that he doesn't know what it is, or what it can be used for. Only a priest, philosopher or a politician would consider such selfcontradiction to be normal or acceptable, but since you claim not to be a philosopher I must conclude that you are either a member of one of the other two despicable professions, or insane. I will not insult you by suggesting that you are a priest or a politician.
Any one of these articles has information about a finding or experiment that is vastly more useful, and just plain interesting, than anything Sheldrake has come up with, or in Nagel's curmudgeon-ish book. Even the article on crickets.Did You Have a Good Time? We Know Where You'll Store the Memory of Ithttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131002092301.htmThinking Crickets: 'Cognitive' Processes Underlie Memory Recall In Cricketshttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090803193645.htmNot What You Consciously Thought: How We Can Do Math Problems and Read Phrases Nonconsciously http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121114083930.htmHow Brain Activity Changes When Anesthesia Induces Unconsciousnesshttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121105151338.htmAiming To Avoid Damage To Neurocognitive Areas Of The Brain During Cranial Radiation(Unless your consciousness is immaterial, then it's no problem)http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091103112403.htmHow Old Memories Fade Awayhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130918180925.htmSocial Reasoning And Brain Development Are Linked In Preschoolershttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090715074928.htmWell-Connected Hemispheres of Einstein's Brain May Have Sparked His Brilliancehttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131004104754.htmNeuroscientists Find a Key to Reducing Forgetting: It's About the Networkhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130829123444.htmEarly Scents Really Do Get 'Etched' In The Brain http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091105132448.htmPeople Control Thoughts Better When They See Their Brain Activityhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110408101740.htmCovert Operations: Your Brain Digitally Remastered for Clarity of Thoughthttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130921092234.htmCan't Place That Face?http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100728151429.htmFlatworms Remember Their Surroundings, Even After Being Decapitated and Growing a New Head.http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=flatworms-recall-familiar-environs-even-after-losing-their-headsLong Memories in Brain Activity Explain Streaks in Individual Behaviorhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130212075220.htm
When is science proper gonna be delivered from that materialist bullshit : amazing ....Just imagine , imagine that big dream ...coming true : the sky would not even be the ...limit .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 05/10/2013 16:41:27When is science proper gonna be delivered from that materialist bullshit : amazing ....Just imagine , imagine that big dream ...coming true : the sky would not even be the ...limit .Dreams and imaginings are all very well, but perhaps you could explain how science will be done when it is free of 'materialist bullshit'?
Deja-vu :Damn : how come i can't find Obama or his memories inside of my tv ? ,silly me : i did look for them so hard though there : i did even cause the malfunction of my tv as a result ,by trying to totally reverse -engineer my tv , in vain : the whole world would be at my mercy if i can get access to Obama's memory or secrets , to the US' state secrets ,or to the CIA's stored memories inside of CNN news channel ,inside of my tv haha Cheryl : you do owe me a tv : i destroyed mine during that search ,thanks to you. I sincerly hope (kidding again ) that that simple minded Skyli is not watching right now haha : he would believe in the "obvious truths revealed by these links of yours" so easily without ever using his critical mind , if he happens to have one at least , no offense , just kidding , "revealed truths by these links of yours " as real breakthroughs humanity has been waiting for all along , i am afraid : Skyli : don't haha = that would mean that everything is just chemistry and physics = God does not exist thus haha ,or maybe is God just physics and chemistry though .Deja-vu thus : We get bombarded by such materialist misinterpretations of scientific experiments , scientific results , all day and night long , honey : Well, dear pretty charming sis ,or materialist nice magical wich : kidding : The above is just a logical extension of the materialist misconception of nature , of the materialist dogmatic belief system dominating in science , and of the materialist meta-paradigm in science, we have been talking about all along : reducing everything to just physics and chemistry : memory , consciousness, life, human cognition, conscience , feelings , emotions ...cannot be reduced to just physics and chemistry : love neither.I can make the whole internet full of similar "findigns " ,sweetie : that's the mainstream dominant view or orthodox materialist belief in science by the way ,that materialist approach that has absolutely nothing to do with science proper , ,under that materialist dominance in science , that's what i have been talking about all along : i see that by just taking a quick look at the first parts of your first link here above = materialism in science at work : pleasant-unpleasant memories stored in some area of the brain haha = hilarious materialist misinterpretation of scientific experiments that gets sold to the people as scientific findigns or scientific results : that's the core issue of this thread , if you haven't noticed yet ,love .I will take a look at the rest of your links, but i am afraid , they will just be playing the same boring false noisy music ,via those tasteless materialist false music notes .Show me where memory is stored then in those specific areas of the brain : how does that memory looks like = just like physics and chemistry, or neuro-physiological-electrochemical processes "emerging " from those ritual sexy synchronisations oscillations vibrations strip-tease harmonious dances of neurons or of enesemble of neurons haha ? Come on, be serious : how can memory that's not a physical thing or process emerge from just chemistry physics ,or that memory can be equated with physical biological processes ?Hilarious ...Thanks though .Good night , sweet Alice : sweet dreams .Oh, your dreams might be stored as well in your head somewhere : they are just physics and chemistry : you might as well store them in a tube somewhere ...What kindda sane intelligent person can see memory at least , as just physics and chemistry ? Right , only materialists can , ironically incredibly amusignly unbelievably enough .Bye, love .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 04/10/2013 22:42:47Deja-vu :Damn : how come i can't find Obama or his memories inside of my tv ? ,silly me : i did look for them so hard though there : i did even cause the malfunction of my tv as a result ,by trying to totally reverse -engineer my tv , in vain : the whole world would be at my mercy if i can get access to Obama's memory or secrets , to the US' state secrets ,or to the CIA's stored memories inside of CNN news channel ,inside of my tv haha Cheryl : you do owe me a tv : i destroyed mine during that search ,thanks to you. I sincerly hope (kidding again ) that that simple minded Skyli is not watching right now haha : he would believe in the "obvious truths revealed by these links of yours" so easily without ever using his critical mind , if he happens to have one at least , no offense , just kidding , "revealed truths by these links of yours " as real breakthroughs humanity has been waiting for all along , i am afraid : Skyli : don't haha = that would mean that everything is just chemistry and physics = God does not exist thus haha ,or maybe is God just physics and chemistry though .Deja-vu thus : We get bombarded by such materialist misinterpretations of scientific experiments , scientific results , all day and night long , honey : Well, dear pretty charming sis ,or materialist nice magical wich : kidding : The above is just a logical extension of the materialist misconception of nature , of the materialist dogmatic belief system dominating in science , and of the materialist meta-paradigm in science, we have been talking about all along : reducing everything to just physics and chemistry : memory , consciousness, life, human cognition, conscience , feelings , emotions ...cannot be reduced to just physics and chemistry : love neither.I can make the whole internet full of similar "findigns " ,sweetie : that's the mainstream dominant view or orthodox materialist belief in science by the way ,that materialist approach that has absolutely nothing to do with science proper , ,under that materialist dominance in science , that's what i have been talking about all along : i see that by just taking a quick look at the first parts of your first link here above = materialism in science at work : pleasant-unpleasant memories stored in some area of the brain haha = hilarious materialist misinterpretation of scientific experiments that gets sold to the people as scientific findigns or scientific results : that's the core issue of this thread , if you haven't noticed yet ,love .I will take a look at the rest of your links, but i am afraid , they will just be playing the same boring false noisy music ,via those tasteless materialist false music notes .Show me where memory is stored then in those specific areas of the brain : how does that memory looks like = just like physics and chemistry, or neuro-physiological-electrochemical processes "emerging " from those ritual sexy synchronisations oscillations vibrations strip-tease harmonious dances of neurons or of enesemble of neurons haha ? Come on, be serious : how can memory that's not a physical thing or process emerge from just chemistry physics ,or that memory can be equated with physical biological processes ?Hilarious ...Thanks though .Good night , sweet Alice : sweet dreams .Oh, your dreams might be stored as well in your head somewhere : they are just physics and chemistry : you might as well store them in a tube somewhere ...What kindda sane intelligent person can see memory at least , as just physics and chemistry ? Right , only materialists can , ironically incredibly amusignly unbelievably enough .Bye, love . Well, since you bring it up again and again, I am curious about the details of your theory of the brain simply being a receiver of "real" consciousness which is generated non locally from a as yet unidentified transmitter, and I have a few questions which you will mostly ignore because they seem so silly to you. Are there any tasks that you would delegate to just the brain? Like say, the control of motor functions, moving the arms and legs? Regulation of blood pressure perhaps or releasing hormones? I recall you saying that your brain informs your consciousness of sensory information it is receiving from sense organs but it is your immaterial consciousness that interprets, makes inferences, or decisions about it. Is that correct? Here is a situation you might want to mull over:There are two kinds of impairment that result in patients not being able to see objects in half of their visual field. One is caused by a lesion in the optic nerve. The other is caused by a lesion in a part of the brain called the visual associative cortex, that materialists say processes visual information and produces the visual experience. Although both patients cannot see objects in part of their optical field, the patient with optic nerve damage is conscious of it - he will complain "Hey, doc, I can't see anything on my left side! What's up with that?" The patient with a lesion in the visual associative cortex does not. He doesn't know he cannot see an object in that part of the visual field, and he doesn't experience a blind spot there. The patient's brain no longer has an area responsible for processing what is going on in that area of the visual field, and for that patient, it ceases to exist consciously. The patient does not complain, because the part of the brain that might notice or complain is incapacitated, and no other part takes over. So what? you say. In your interpretation, in either case, it's just a broken TV set. The real "you" or consciousness is out there in outer space some where. I'm wondering if that real you is aware of the lesion in the associative visual cortex, if it is disrupting his life in any way, if he's frustrated or annoyed by the lack of information in his visual field? It's odd that he can't communicate any of this back to your receiver; it's almost as if from the point of view of your brain or body, he didn't exist! I also recall you saying that just because certain brain activities are associated with certain thoughts, correlation does not prove causality. So what is the alternative explanation for this? Do you not think it odd, that the brain has so many specific areas that correlate, so many complicated connections between billions of neurons just to reflect or react to work that is really being done by the immaterial, mysterious consciousness? Although you see higher level cognitive or creative processes as somehow ephemeral, different from say, vision or hearing, a lesion in the lateral frontal lobes produces deficits in sequencing. The patients is unable to plan or multitask. Orbital frontal lesions result in a loss of the ability to judge right and wrong. A lesion in the left temporal lobe or Wernickes area destroys a person's ability to comprehend written or spoken language, although he can still, himself, speak normally. So what I'm wondering is, when these types of brain damage occur, can the non-local form of your consciousness still perform these tasks somewhere out in space? Again, it must be quite frustrating for him when his robot like receiver on Earth can't! He's up there multitasking and sequencing properly, making moral judgements, but that silly body on Earth isn't doing what he wants!
Quote from: dlorde on 05/10/2013 18:28:51...perhaps you could explain how science will be done when it is free of 'materialist bullshit'?Well, materialism will be history : inevitable = just a matter of time indeed , materialism that has been superseded even by the physical sciences, especially by quantum physics ...How come you still do not get it yet , after all these lengthy kilometers of pages on this thread ?Science will continue using its effective and unparalleled method that's like no other , but will be free from that materialist prison...Science will then be able to approach the universe or reality as not exclusively physical biological processes ......the mental side of nature will not be reduced to just physics and chemistry ....What part of these statements can't you understand ?
...perhaps you could explain how science will be done when it is free of 'materialist bullshit'?
... As of the damaged areas of the human brain that seem to cause the loss of their corresponding parts of consciousness ....I just see that as being the case of the damaged receiver or brain that stops to receive those corresponding "signals " from those corresponding parts of consciousness ..
That's 1 of the reasons why materialism is false .As of the damaged areas of the human brain that seem to cause the loss of their corresponding parts of consciousness ....I just see that as being the case of the damaged receiver or brain that stops to receive those corresponding "signals " from those corresponding parts of consciousness ...Besides, the hard problem of consciousness can be only approached by a potentially non-reductionist approach,obviously , in the sense that we can study the physical brain , while trying to figure out how it interacts with consciousness as such .....Later then .P.S.: No one yet , if ever , including Nagel, Sheldrake and the rest , were /are able to come up with a cristal-clear vision concerning how the potentially non-reductionist approach of consciousness , memory ,cognition, feelings , emotions ...can be done on the reality ground , or what that non-reductionist approach exactly is , how it might work ...
I am , in fact , very skeptical about your allegation that you are a pro scientist : how can that be ?
: you might be one , but a very ignorant one regarding the nature of science , its alleged objectivity,