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Quote from: JP on 16/07/2011 21:29:02Quote from: MikeS on 16/07/2011 15:52:33We use a given amount of energy to create pair particles at a high gravitational potential at the top of a tower and let them fall. In falling they gain kinetic energy which we use to operate an electric generator at the bottom of the tower. The electricity generated is used to produce more photons at the top of the tower which are then used to create pair particles which fall gaining kinetic energy and so on."Ah, but to create more photons at the top of the tower you have to spend at least as much energy as you just gained by having their decay products fall to the bottom. Still not perpetual motion. Still Newtonian gravity.The energy of creation equals the mass energy equivalence for the production of the particles plus the extra energy required to create them in a higher gravitational potential. The KE gained in the fall being equal to the original PE. I agree with all of that.What I was trying to get at before in the experiment I outlined is how does Newtonian gravity explain what is happening in that particular instance. In the downward leg of the loop particles gain KE in every loop. On the upward leg of the loop, the electrical circuit, there would appear to be neither gain nor loss as gravity acts equally on both sides of the electrical circuit. There seems to be an excess of energy left over on every loop.In a simple two wire electrical circuit the current flow in any part of the circuit is the same. As we have assumed the circuit to be physically lossless, both the current flow and the voltage at the top of the tower is the same as at the bottom of the tower. It would appear there is no loss.As I mentioned before, there is a loss but it's due to time dilation which Newtonian gravity does not take into account.I don't doubt that Newtonian gravity covers the situation, in that energy has to be conserved. I just don't see how it can explain it.
Quote from: MikeS on 16/07/2011 15:52:33We use a given amount of energy to create pair particles at a high gravitational potential at the top of a tower and let them fall. In falling they gain kinetic energy which we use to operate an electric generator at the bottom of the tower. The electricity generated is used to produce more photons at the top of the tower which are then used to create pair particles which fall gaining kinetic energy and so on."Ah, but to create more photons at the top of the tower you have to spend at least as much energy as you just gained by having their decay products fall to the bottom. Still not perpetual motion. Still Newtonian gravity.
We use a given amount of energy to create pair particles at a high gravitational potential at the top of a tower and let them fall. In falling they gain kinetic energy which we use to operate an electric generator at the bottom of the tower. The electricity generated is used to produce more photons at the top of the tower which are then used to create pair particles which fall gaining kinetic energy and so on."
Mike, I stopped responding because it's not a debate and you continue to ignore or misinterpret most of what I say. I've said repeatedly that the current going up the wire loses energy due to pushing upward against gravity. It loses the same amount of energy, in fact, that it gained coming down the wire.
If you still don't believe this, you're free to have your own theory of gravity as PhysBang said. This is the New Theories forum. However, the claims you're making are demonstrably false.
This leg is a two wire circuit. Gravity affects both wires equally. It tries to slow the flow of electrons in the upward wire and accelerate the flow in the downward wire. The gravitational effect on the electrical circuit is cancelled. There is no gain or loss of energy.Do you agree?
Quote from: MikeS on 19/07/2011 18:36:25This leg is a two wire circuit. Gravity affects both wires equally. It tries to slow the flow of electrons in the upward wire and accelerate the flow in the downward wire. The gravitational effect on the electrical circuit is cancelled. There is no gain or loss of energy.Do you agree?No, since clearly some of the energy from the wire is going in to creating the photons. So there is less energy going along the current downwards and this is gaining less energy from going downwards.
1) X+Y is the energy supplied at the source.2) X is the energy left after using Y units to rise to the top.3) 0 is the energy left after giving up X units to create particles.4) Y is the energy gained on the fall down.Total energy at the bottom: Y.5) X: If the particles created from the energy are massive and allowed to fall, then the total energy they have at the bottom is X. 6) X+Y: Added to the current's energy, this gives X+Y total energy which brings us back to...1) X+Y is the energy supplied at the source....
Well, now we've pinned down exactly where you're wrong. It takes energy to move something uphill when gravity is pulling it down. You can see this simply by rolling a ball up a hill. It will arrive at the top with less energy than it had at the bottom.
JPQuote from: JP on 19/07/2011 16:53:27Mike, I stopped responding because it's not a debate and you continue to ignore or misinterpret most of what I say. I've said repeatedly that the current going up the wire loses energy due to pushing upward against gravity. It loses the same amount of energy, in fact, that it gained coming down the wire.Yes, I agree, I keep telling you I agree but that is only one half of the loop. The other side of the loop is pair particles gaining energy as they fall. Therefore, there is an excess of energy in every cycle of the loop. You keep ignoring this.Could you please answer the simple question in my last post."The downward leg of the loop gains energy through gravity. The upward leg neither gains nor looses energy. Therefore there is an excess of energy left over." Can you explain how Newtonian gravity can account for the above apparent excess of energy in this experiment?The gravitational potential energy of the pair particles is converted into kinetic energy as they fall. They have gained kinetic energy.Do you agree?The other leg of the experiment is taking the generated electricity back to the top of the tower to create more pair particles.This leg is a two wire circuit. Gravity affects both wires equally. It tries to slow the flow of electrons in the upward wire and accelerate the flow in the downward wire. The gravitational effect on the electrical circuit is cancelled. There is no gain or loss of energy.Do you agree?This leaves a surplus of energy created by the falling pair particles.Do you agree?If not why not?You still have not accounted for where this excess energy has come from?Repeating that "the current going up the wire loses energy due to pushing upward against gravity. It loses the same amount of energy, in fact, that it gained coming down the wire." Is not going to help as it is only looking at one half of the experiment. The other half shows an energy gain.I am not proposing anything new. I simply know that time dilation (which is a known and tested fact) can and does simply explain the experiment in question. You have still not explained how Newtonian gravity explains away the experiments apparent overall energy gain.