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So what does the "nonmaterialist theory of reality" predict?
Cheryl, alancalverd ... : I am in fact no full fan of US ID or of any other theory of nature or beyond .....I never stick to any theory of nature , knowledge , models ...or beyond, a full 100 % , so to speak , since all knowledge is hypothetical , including the scientific one,and can thus never proven to be "true ", ever .
That said : Neither of you did address the above key mentioned issues or objections raised by either my earlier posts ,or by that excerpt of Meyer here above , concerning Darwinism , the origin of life , life information ...,
Nobody is denying that there is some form of natural selection at work through mutations ....
It's just that natural selection ( Analogous to the mysterious " invisible hand " of the market lol ) cannot account for the rich diversity and complexity of life , let alone for the added biological or life information that's necessary to account for novel forms and novel body plans ....to mention just that .
Not to mention the Cambrian explosion where whole complex species appeared suddenly without preexisting simpler forms or simpler ancestors ,and where the fossil record or evidence contradicted Darwinism .Darwin himself was puzzled by that and admitted that he could find no explanation to that , and that his theory might turn out to be false ,if future scientists wouldn't be able to solve that Cambrian dilemma ,for example .Many attempts have been conducted so far to solve the Cambrian dilemma ,since Darwin, up to this date , in vain still ,as far as i can tell at least .
P.S.: Cheryl :How about the surgery you seem to have been gone through ? It did go well, i see . I am glad for you .Nice to have you back .
Cheryl, alancalverd : This will rock your false materialist world view : Why Science Must Become Non-Materialist ? : Excerpt from "Brain Wars ..." By Canadian neuroscientist Mario Beauregard :
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/10/2014 23:23:11So what does the "nonmaterialist theory of reality" predict?The ...future .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 14/10/2014 18:21:06Quote from: alancalverd on 13/10/2014 23:23:11So what does the "nonmaterialist theory of reality" predict?The ...future .Full marks for a statement worthy of Sam Goldwyn at his best. I won't even mutter "tautology" if you can give me one actual example.I can't waste time reading the rest of the stuff because it talks about "consciousness" which is undefined.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 15/10/2014 18:25:07Cheryl, alancalverd : This will rock your false materialist world view : Why Science Must Become Non-Materialist ? : Excerpt from "Brain Wars ..." By Canadian neuroscientist Mario Beauregard : All of this seems based on a false dichotomy. That the "mental" affects the physiological processes of the body is only evidence of some non-material mechanism if you believe that mental processes do not arise from the physical. Sensory information, whether it's a physical threat, bad news, a stressful environment - is transmitted through the nervous system, processed in the brain, and undoubtedly has physiological effects on the rest of the body via nervous system, hormones, etc. This is well understood and not magical. Likewise the positive effects of meditation can also be explained without resorting to anything immaterial or mystical.The idea that our internal thoughts, imagery, emotions have physiological effects is also not a violation of materialism. There is no contradiction in the idea of "top down control" or the whole constraining the parts. The brain contains a wealth of two way tracts, up and down communication. (I am not referring to sensory/motor systems, but processing in brain itself)The flow of information from higher- to lower-order cortical areas plays a role equal in importance to the feedforward pathways. In this respect, there is no starting point for information flow - that is - you cannot point to a part of the loop and say the beginning or stimulus is here, and the effect is there. There is no need to invoke the supernatural to explain how our conscious thoughts affect other aspects of brain function or physiology. On the other hand, suggesting that people can cure their cancer with a positive attitude is cruel and reckless and no different than believing that I can fix the transmission in my car by thinking happy thoughts about it. Here is a critique of Beauregard's work. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-materialist_neuroscience
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 13/10/2014 18:37:13P.S.: Cheryl :How about the surgery you seem to have been gone through ? It did go well, i see . I am glad for you .Nice to have you back . Yes, doing better, thanks. Not moving around too much, but home from the hospital, and reading, sketching, and a lot of sleeping, with my cats to keep me company.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 13/10/2014 18:37:13Cheryl, alancalverd ... : I am in fact no full fan of US ID or of any other theory of nature or beyond .....I never stick to any theory of nature , knowledge , models ...or beyond, a full 100 % , so to speak , since all knowledge is hypothetical , including the scientific one,and can thus never proven to be "true ", ever .Back peddling.QuoteThat said : Neither of you did address the above key mentioned issues or objections raised by either my earlier posts ,or by that excerpt of Meyer here above , concerning Darwinism , the origin of life , life information ...,Yes, we did. Go back and read it. QuoteNobody is denying that there is some form of natural selection at work through mutations ....Well, I'm glad you concede that much at least.QuoteIt's just that natural selection ( Analogous to the mysterious " invisible hand " of the market lol ) cannot account for the rich diversity and complexity of life , let alone for the added biological or life information that's necessary to account for novel forms and novel body plans ....to mention just that .You keep saying "it can't account for" but are unable to explain specifically why or what can't be accounted for. We've already given you examples of macroevolution. QuoteNot to mention the Cambrian explosion where whole complex species appeared suddenly without preexisting simpler forms or simpler ancestors ,and where the fossil record or evidence contradicted Darwinism .Darwin himself was puzzled by that and admitted that he could find no explanation to that , and that his theory might turn out to be false ,if future scientists wouldn't be able to solve that Cambrian dilemma ,for example .Many attempts have been conducted so far to solve the Cambrian dilemma ,since Darwin, up to this date , in vain still ,as far as i can tell at least . Here is some information to update you since the 1800s about the Cambrian explosion.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090108082914.htmhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061209083521.htmhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130912131753.htm
There was not even a hint or any implicit allusion whatsoever to any 'supernatural " intervention in the above displayed excerpt, regarding the mind-body interaction : the non-physical non-local nature of consciousness is perfectly normal , not "super or paranormal " .
When you would consider all those "paranormal " phenomena like psi phenomena from the non-materialist perspective , they would appear to you as they are in reality : perfectly normal .
Go re-read that excerpt once more , because you clearly did not understand what Beauregard was talking about .
For example, some forms of materialism assume that consciousness is just a product of the evolutionary complexity of the brain , just an epiphenomena , a side effect of evolution without (absurd ) any causal effects on matter brain or body.
: How can then consciousness trigger or have influence on the physical reality, on the self-directed neuro-plasticity ...How can meditation through consciousness have influence on the brain , body ...How can consciousness work through neurofeedback ...? How can the placebo or nocebo effects be explained in materialistic terms ?How can belief that shapes consciousness have influence on our biology , brain and even genes ?, heal our bodies ? ... if the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body . as those materialist lunatics wanna make us believe it is ? , or if the mind is in the brain or just brain activity ...Just re-read that above displayed excerpt more carefully then .
Second : macro-evolution cannot be extrapolated from micro-evolution , simply because the natural selection cannot account for the added biological information that's necessary for "building " novel forms and novel body plans, not to mention that the highly unlikely blind unguided random lottery of the natural selection can never account for all that complexity and diversity of life on earth , via gradual, step by step , trial and error attempts , so to speak ( Not in trillions of years or more thus, so to speak ) : that's mathematically impossible , not to mention that even computer science has proved that gradual simple or small random variations cannot account for or ever lead to large scale variations : random variations can work only in a limited small way .
Many biologists have been doubting the creative power of the natural selection , as that excerpt of Meyer showed ,and much more : Go back and re-read it more carefully , please .
I will even supply you with more relevant excerpts on the subject as well, if you want to .
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg442393#msg442393 date=1413504533]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/10/2014 19:15:41 There was not even a hint or any implicit allusion whatsoever to any 'supernatural " intervention in the above displayed excerpt, regarding the mind-body interaction : the non-physical non-local nature of consciousness is perfectly normal , not "super or paranormal " . "Normal" or not, as long as you repeatedly fail to explain how it works, as long as you cant demonstrate the mechanism,supernatural is as good as any other descriptive term.
QuoteWhen you would consider all those "paranormal " phenomena like psi phenomena from the non-materialist perspective , they would appear to you as they are in reality : perfectly normal .Again, call it whatever name you care to make up. Just explain how it works.
QuoteQuote Go re-read that excerpt once more , because you clearly did not understand what Beauregard was talking about .What's to understand? They are just statements of various claims, not explanations. What particular claim of his do you want me to address. Did you read the Rationalwiki link?
Quote Go re-read that excerpt once more , because you clearly did not understand what Beauregard was talking about .What's to understand? They are just statements of various claims, not explanations. What particular claim of his do you want me to address. Did you read the Rationalwiki link?
QuoteFor example, some forms of materialism assume that consciousness is just a product of the evolutionary complexity of the brain , just an epiphenomena , a side effect of evolution without (absurd ) any causal effects on matter brain or body.I haven't said that, and I don't think it's an epiphenomena.
QuoteQuoteQuote : How can then consciousness trigger or have influence on the physical reality, on the self-directed neuro-plasticity ...How can meditation through consciousness have influence on the brain , body ...How can consciousness work through neurofeedback ...? How can the placebo or nocebo effects be explained in materialistic terms ?How can belief that shapes consciousness have influence on our biology , brain and even genes ?, heal our bodies ? ... if the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body . as those materialist lunatics wanna make us believe it is ? , or if the mind is in the brain or just brain activity ...Just re-read that above displayed excerpt more carefully then .Go read re-read the answers I just gave you to all of those questions!
QuoteQuote : How can then consciousness trigger or have influence on the physical reality, on the self-directed neuro-plasticity ...How can meditation through consciousness have influence on the brain , body ...How can consciousness work through neurofeedback ...? How can the placebo or nocebo effects be explained in materialistic terms ?How can belief that shapes consciousness have influence on our biology , brain and even genes ?, heal our bodies ? ... if the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body . as those materialist lunatics wanna make us believe it is ? , or if the mind is in the brain or just brain activity ...Just re-read that above displayed excerpt more carefully then .
Quote : How can then consciousness trigger or have influence on the physical reality, on the self-directed neuro-plasticity ...How can meditation through consciousness have influence on the brain , body ...How can consciousness work through neurofeedback ...? How can the placebo or nocebo effects be explained in materialistic terms ?How can belief that shapes consciousness have influence on our biology , brain and even genes ?, heal our bodies ? ... if the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body . as those materialist lunatics wanna make us believe it is ? , or if the mind is in the brain or just brain activity ...Just re-read that above displayed excerpt more carefully then .
: How can then consciousness trigger or have influence on the physical reality, on the self-directed neuro-plasticity ...How can meditation through consciousness have influence on the brain , body ...How can consciousness work through neurofeedback ...? How can the placebo or nocebo effects be explained in materialistic terms ?How can belief that shapes consciousness have influence on our biology , brain and even genes ?, heal our bodies ? ... if the mind has no causal effects on matter brain or body . as those materialist lunatics wanna make us believe it is ? , or if the mind is in the brain or just brain activity ...Just re-read that above displayed excerpt more carefully then
Don, isn't it rather telling that after a year or more, and all the investigation that you yourself have done, we are still referring to the non-material, as the "non-material," that it doesn't even have its own name, other than what it is not? Why is that?
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg442394#msg442394 date=1413507594]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 16/10/2014 19:46:44Second : macro-evolution cannot be extrapolated from micro-evolution , simply because the natural selection cannot account for the added biological information that's necessary for "building " novel forms and novel body plans, not to mention that the highly unlikely blind unguided random lottery of the natural selection can never account for all that complexity and diversity of life on earth , via gradual, step by step , trial and error attempts , so to speak ( Not in trillions of years or more thus, so to speak ) : that's mathematically impossible , not to mention that even computer science has proved that gradual simple or small random variations cannot account for or ever lead to large scale variations : random variations can work only in a limited small way .Yet, macroevolution does happen - it's an observable event. Species do split into other species that are morphologically different and no longer genetically compatible with the original, parent stock. I don't understand why you feel recombination of genetic material in sexual reproduction, mutation and natural selection cannot account for "added information." When a base pair is added, that's new information, when it's deleted, the shift can result in new information, when genes are accidentally duplicated, that's new information. When some of those duplicated genes mutate and become different genes, that's new information. Surprisingly small and simple mutations can have big affects, such as relocating entire appendages or wings. What confuses you about this?
QuoteMany biologists have been doubting the creative power of the natural selection , as that excerpt of Meyer showed ,and much more : Go back and re-read it more carefully , please .I'm not sure who these "many biologists" are, but they're not the ones publishing research in thousands of peer reviewed scientific journals.
QuoteI will even supply you with more relevant excerpts on the subject as well, if you want to .knock yourself out.
Quote from: cheryl j on 17/10/2014 03:18:48Don, isn't it rather telling that after a year or more, and all the investigation that you yourself have done, we are still referring to the non-material, as the "non-material," that it doesn't even have its own name, other than what it is not? Why is that?See above : You're falsely assuming that materialism is scientific , in the sense that everything is matter , including the mind , and hence the whole universe can be basically and actually explained only by material processes = that's what reductionist materialists call "methodological naturalism " = that's just a consequence of the false reductionist materialist theory of reality in science , no science ( Methodological naturalism is reductionist materialist thus , and reductionism has also been proven to be false , so ) .Furthermore , science is no synonymous of the reductionist materialist so-called methodological naturalism .Science is just a synonymous of the scientific method that should incite scientists to follow the evidence wherever it might take them .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 17/10/2014 20:16:58Quote from: cheryl j on 17/10/2014 03:18:48Don, isn't it rather telling that after a year or more, and all the investigation that you yourself have done, we are still referring to the non-material, as the "non-material," that it doesn't even have its own name, other than what it is not? Why is that?See above : You're falsely assuming that materialism is scientific , in the sense that everything is matter , including the mind , and hence the whole universe can be basically and actually explained only by material processes = that's what reductionist materialists call "methodological naturalism " = that's just a consequence of the false reductionist materialist theory of reality in science , no science ( Methodological naturalism is reductionist materialist thus , and reductionism has also been proven to be false , so ) .Furthermore , science is no synonymous of the reductionist materialist so-called methodological naturalism .Science is just a synonymous of the scientific method that should incite scientists to follow the evidence wherever it might take them . I'm not assuming anything, and have been perfectly willing to consider your evidence - you just haven't provided any. After months (years?)of investigation, all you seem to have for your work is the same list of phenomena you feel have not yet been adequately explained to your satisfaction, but not a single alternative explanation backed by evidence for that explanation. And again, this thing or concept of yours, for lack of a better word, doesn't even have it's own name, a definition, or a descriptive list of qualities, other than being "non-material."