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First of all : how can the unconscious matter give rise to the immaterial consciousness ? or how could the evolved brain "create " consciousness ? : you gotta try to come up with some explanation more serious and better than those materialistic so-called computation or emergence property theory mechanisms though ...
Finally : who can tell me what consciousness exactly is or rather what its nature or function are ?
So, to summarise, you want someone to explain how consciousness has evolved, but you state that nobody knows what consciousness is.I will give you a complete explanation in exchange for an accurate answer to a much simpler question: How long is this piece of string? Hint: the string may not exist, and that wasn't the piece I meant.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/08/2013 21:58:48First of all : how can the unconscious matter give rise to the immaterial consciousness ? or how could the evolved brain "create " consciousness ? : you gotta try to come up with some explanation more serious and better than those materialistic so-called computation or emergence property theory mechanisms though ... The standard answer is that consciousness emerges out of complexity. Nothing experiences pain other than something that emerges out of complexity while all the components of the system feel nothing. When you torture someone, you are torturing a complex arrangement of parts and not the parts themselves. Sentient geometrical arrangements!
QuoteFinally : who can tell me what consciousness exactly is or rather what its nature or function are ? The function appears to be to drive an animal to fight for survival and to do all manner of things that will make its survival more likely. The problem is that it appears to be impossible for it to be anything more than a fiction.
Take a simple case. Prod a worm with something sharp, it feels pain and tries to get away from the thing causing it pain. Now make a robot to display the same behaviour: a touch sensor is pressed with something sharp, the robot tries to get away from the thing that touched it. No pain in the robot. How can we add pain to the system? Let's hide the pain mechanism in a box and not worry about it. The input from the sensor goes into the box where pain is felt, then an output from the box goes on to trigger the robot into moving away from the sharp thing. That works, but the content of the box adds nothing to the functionality, and it's also impossible for the computer in charge of moving the robot to determine whether pain was felt in the box at all. That is the problem with consciousness - there is no way for an information system to interface with qualia in such a manner as to know anything about them. All it can do is map assertions of sensation to inputs which are supposedly sensations.
The immaterial human consciousness is therefore no biological process
You are not talking science here , you are just confusing materialism as a world view with science : see the difference ?
But , only humans are self-aware though
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 30/08/2013 19:26:06The immaterial human consciousness is therefore no biological processNever mind what it isn't. Just tell us what it is, and we'll discuss its origins. Or if you can't say what it is, tell us what it does.
QuoteYou are not talking science here , you are just confusing materialism as a world view with science : see the difference ? Where on earth did you get the idea that you can read and interpret thoughts I haven't expressed? All I have done is to consistently ask you what you mean by consciousness, and all you do is to ignore the question.
That is demonstrably - indeed obviously - untrue. If you start from an untrue premise, you will end up with a theology at best, via insanity, to an appalling political philosophy at worst. Or do you have some personal definition of awareness that only applies to hairless apes?
Well, you said on this thread that human consciousness does not exist as such
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/08/2013 23:19:30QuoteWell, you said on this thread that human consciousness does not exist as suchOn the contrary, you suggested it might not. I still have no idea what it is or what it does, as you refuse to tell me, so I can't possibly say whether it exists or not. I think I've had enough of this drivel. From what you say, Islam offers a collection of wholly unsubstantiated assertions of human vanity and no insight into the workings of nature. Either you are doing it a disservice, or it is stultifying your obvious intellect. Your problem, not mine.
QuoteWell, you said on this thread that human consciousness does not exist as suchOn the contrary, you suggested it might not. I still have no idea what it is or what it does, as you refuse to tell me, so I can't possibly say whether it exists or not.
So I'm with you on one point at least. There is no entity of consciousness. Frankly, there are so many real, important and interesting entities in the world that I don't see any point in spending time discussing one that doesn't exist.
Some right, some wrong, but doesn't take things on board.Solution?Unfollow.
Narrow-minded materialistic exclusive reductionistic mechanical outdated refuted and largely discredited attitude and world view .
..., the theory of chaos of maths ......do refute that deterministic materialism .
... Consciousness feels too real to be an illusion, but reason appears to show that it must be an illusion, no matter how much we dislike that idea.
While I agree with what you say, there are semantic problems with calling consciousness an illusion, because it implies that consciousness doesn't 'really' exist, yet we obviously are 'conscious' and have a sense of self, and awareness, etc., and there's a whole bunch of objective observations we can make to determine whether someone is conscious or not; so consciousness is a real phenomenon of some kind.