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You fully accept that the bar arm (and spiral arm) are made out of stars that are bonded by gravity force.
Quote from: Dave Lev on 28/06/2022 16:59:27You fully accept that the bar arm (and spiral arm) are made out of stars that are bonded by gravity force.Only in the same way that a swarm of flies is "bonded" by the air around them.
If you just wait a while you will see that they become separate.
So long as you don't get the impression that they behave like some kind of single, solid object.
Can you please explain why the bars are always at the inwards side of the ring while the spirals arms are always at the outwards side of the ring?
As you believe that the arms are there just by chance, then why that chance can't set the spirals inwards and the bar outwards?Why we can't see even just one spiral galaxy with opposite arms in the entire universe?
That bar/spiral arms maintains its shape exactly as the bird maintains its shape.We can claim that the bird is a temporary structure as it has a limited life time and it also changes it shape during the limited live time frame.As the bird isn't made out of swarm living cells that are just there by chance, the bar/spiral isn't made just of swarm of stars that also are just there by chance..Therefore, as we all agree that the bird is a temporary structure made out of living cells that are bonded to each other, then why can't we understand that the bar/spiral is also one structure made out of billion stars that are bonded to each other.
You calim that the Bar and the spiral arms are there just by chance.
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Today at 14:37:20You calim that the Bar and the spiral arms are there just by chance.I never said that.
Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 14:37:20You calim that the Bar and the spiral arms are there just by chance.
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Today at 14:37:20Can you please explain why the bars are always at the inwards side of the ring while the spirals arms are always at the outwards side of the ring?I don't know.
Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 14:37:20Can you please explain why the bars are always at the inwards side of the ring while the spirals arms are always at the outwards side of the ring?
but you claim that we are just lucky to see them all together in this shape.
False analogy. The structure of a bird is far more rigidly bound than the stars in a galaxy is. The stars in a galaxy are constantly moving relative to each other. The "bond" by gravity is significantly more loose. It would be better to liken the spiral shape of a galaxy to the spiral shape of a hurricane. Hurricanes aren't spirals just by chance either, but they also aren't solid, unchanging structures.
Only in the same way that a swarm of flies is "bonded" by the air around them.
Quote from: Dave Lev on 29/06/2022 14:37:20 but you claim that we are just lucky to see them all together in this shape.If you look closely, you will see that I never said that.
So what is the correct answer?
I can promise you that if you would accept the idea that the Bars, Rings and spiral arms are made out of billions stars that are locally bonded by gravity to each other - you would know the answer for this question.So, would you kindly give me the possibility to use this understanding of local gravity bonding?
You know that the dark matter isn't perfectly OK
So why do you refuse to accept much better theory that can answer any question that we might have?
Even in a tinny bird there are billions of molecules.
So, technically the relative distance between the billions molecules in the bird to its size, could be quite similar to the distance between the stars in the spiral arm to its size.
Hence, we can't compare the spiral arm to hurricane as there is no real bonding between the gas in that hurricane.
So please, what kind of force could hold the spiral arm or the bar for millions and billions of years?
Quote from: Bored chemist on 29/06/2022 18:28:00Quote from: Dave Lev on 29/06/2022 14:37:20 but you claim that we are just lucky to see them all together in this shape.If you look closely, you will see that I never said that.So please, what kind of force could hold the spiral arm or the bar for millions and billions of years?
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 17:06:39I can promise you that if you would accept the idea that the Bars, Rings and spiral arms are made out of billions stars that are locally bonded by gravity to each other - you would know the answer for this question.So, would you kindly give me the possibility to use this understanding of local gravity bonding?I don't really get what you're asking. Yes, they are bonded, in a sense, by gravity. It's temporary and dynamic, though. The stars don't all stay in place relative to each other over time.
Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 17:06:39I can promise you that if you would accept the idea that the Bars, Rings and spiral arms are made out of billions stars that are locally bonded by gravity to each other - you would know the answer for this question.So, would you kindly give me the possibility to use this understanding of local gravity bonding?
Because your idea can't explain why stars are orbiting faster than they should be. Dark matter can.
Please be aware that as the moon is bonded at a second gravity bonding with the Sun, it doesn't need to explain its orbital motion around the Galaxy. It just goes wherever the Sun Goes.Therefore, there is no need for dark matter to explain the Moon motion around the galaxy at it is the task of the Sun.In the same token, the Sun doesn't need to explain its orbital motion around the galaxy. It just goes wherever the arm goes.Therefore, there is no need for dark matter to explain the Sun motion around the galaxy at it is the task of the spiral arm.
No, that doesn't work. You don't get to cheat Kepler's third law like that.
As I said before, the arms are not solid, rigid objects.
Go back and take a look at the graph of galactic orbital speeds.
A star orbiting halfway out from the galactic center orbits at about the same speed as one at the outer edges of the galaxy.
So what happens when you look at two such stars in the same spiral arm? In order to complete one orbit around the galaxy, the one that is twice as far out has to travel twice as far to complete one orbit. But both stars are orbiting at the same speed. So if we wait long enough for the innermost star to complete one orbit, the outermost star has only completed half an orbit. In other words, they are now on opposite sides of the galaxy. So they are no longer in the same spiral arm and thus we can safely conclude that the spiral arm does not just drag stars around as a single, rigid unit. The only way that would work would be if the outermost star orbited at twice the speed of the innermost star (which it quite clearly does not).
In order to complete one orbit around the galaxy, the one that is twice as far out has to travel twice as far to complete one orbit.
Would you kindly explain what is the problem with Kepler's third law?
That message is correct for any orbital system that is bounded by gravity.We know that planets and moons migrate in the solar system.Therefore, would you consider the solar system as a solid/rigid system or as a temporary system?
Yes, your explanation is perfectly OK.
As I have stated, your following explanation is perfectly OK for the Bar:
A star at a distance 2R would travel twice faster than a star that is located at R.
Therefore, would you consider the solar system as a solid/rigid system or as a temporary system?
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Today at 12:41:30As I have stated, your following explanation is perfectly OK for the Bar:Except what I said applies to the whole galaxy, not just the bar.
Quote from: Dave Lev on Today at 12:41:30As I have stated, your following explanation is perfectly OK for the Bar:
Go back to that graph you posted. The red line is what Kepler's third law predicts if there was only normal matter in the galaxy. Since your model posits that there is only normal matter, then your model also predicts that red line. What we have is the green line instead. So your model is wrong.
The Solar System is extremely minute compared to the galaxy, so the distances from the center of the galaxy to the Sun, Moon and Earth are all practically the same. As such, their orbital velocities around the galaxy are also practically the same and they have to travel about the same distance to make one orbit about the galaxy.
Why our scientists refuse to understand that there is an order in spiral galaxy.
Therefore, why they ignore the real meaning of this unique structure?
Do you really care about the Bulge, Bar, ring, spiral arms shape?If you care about it then you should know that the current theories can't give real answer for all of them.
So why do you lock yourself when it comes to a possibility to get full understanding about this shape?
Sorry, I don't agree with that
As the moon orbits around a common center of as with the Earth (or ComE) while this ComE orbits around the Common center with the mass, it is clear that the moon covers longer distance than the Sun for one orbital cycle around the galaxy.
Therefore, by definition its orbital velocity should be higher than the Sun (even if that increase is quite neglected).
Do you think that kepler law can work directly between the Moon - Sun orbital cycle while the moon is wobbling?Don't you agree that the answer must be - NO.
Our scientists hope that the sun is just wobbling around the galactic plan and totally ignore the real meaning of the wobbling observation
Don't you agree that it is a SEVERE mistake from our scientists to expect that the sun orbit directly around the center of the galaxy while it wobbling?
That wobbling motion of the Sun proves that kepler law doesn't work between the sun to the center of the galaxy.
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28As the moon orbits around a common center of as with the Earth (or ComE) while this ComE orbits around the Common center with the mass, it is clear that the moon covers longer distance than the Sun for one orbital cycle around the galaxy.Because it's orbiting more than just the galactic center. It's also orbiting the Sun and the Earth.
Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28As the moon orbits around a common center of as with the Earth (or ComE) while this ComE orbits around the Common center with the mass, it is clear that the moon covers longer distance than the Sun for one orbital cycle around the galaxy.
Its average orbital speed around the galactic center, specifically, isn't. You'd have to average the total speeds at all points in the Moon's orbit to get that.
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28That wobbling motion of the Sun proves that kepler law doesn't work between the sun to the center of the galaxy.No, no it does not prove that. Kepler's third law still works just fine so long as you factor in extra gravitational influences (such as the ones that cause the Sun to wobble).
Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28That wobbling motion of the Sun proves that kepler law doesn't work between the sun to the center of the galaxy.
I'm not. What I'm "locking" myself from are ideas that break the laws of physics
QuoteQuote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28Do you really care about the Bulge, Bar, ring, spiral arms shape?If you care about it then you should know that the current theories can't give real answer for all of them.Can you quote a scientist on that?
Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 21:19:28Do you really care about the Bulge, Bar, ring, spiral arms shape?If you care about it then you should know that the current theories can't give real answer for all of them.
Do you confirm that the total distance that the moon cross per one year is bigger than the distance that the Earth cross per one year?
As the answer must be yes, do you confirm that the moon must move faster than the earth in order to accomplish a longer distance per year?
In the same token, do you agree that while the sun isn't moving at all the earth must orbit around it.
Therefore, while the sun orbits around the galaxy center the earth must cover longer distance than the Sun?
Don't you agree that longer distance per a given time frame means faster velocity?
Therefore why do you refuse to understand that the average velocity of the Earth must be faster than the Sun, while the average velocity of the moon must be faster than the Earth?
If you mean that the average velocity of the moon is the same as the sun while they orbit around the galactic center - then this is a violation of real science.
Sorry, this is a severe violation of kepler law.
The real meaning of that "extra gravitational influences (such as the ones that cause the Sun to wobble)" is that the Sun orbits around some common center of mass, while that common center of mass orbits around the galactic center.
The Sun wobbling movement proves by 100% that the orbits around some sort of common center of mass in the spiral arm.As long as you lock yourself from that key understanding, you and all the science comunity won't understand how the spiral galaxy really works!!!
So please tell me how your invented formula for the dark matter can force all the 100% of the billions spiral galaxies in the entire universe to set always the bar in the inwards side of the ring while the spiral arms are at the outwards side?
As long as you can't answer this question - then your current theory is just useless!
Sorry, our science community totally ignore key elements in the spiral galaxy observation and therefore, they don't have even a basic clue how it really works.
As I said before, the arms are not solid, rigid objects...So what happens when you look at two such stars in the same spiral arm? In order to complete one orbit around the galaxy, the one that is twice as far out has to travel twice as far to complete one orbit.
Ask an astrophysicist.