0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 20:23:44Quote from: dlorde on 03/12/2013 20:15:32Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 18:05:45... nature cannot "generate " life or consciousness...So now life and consciousness are unnatural are they, Don?Not unnatural, they just cannot be "generated " by nature , otherwise , let any materialist out there ,or any naturalist non-reductionist account for the nature of life or consciousness fully naturalistically .In other words :Let them explain to us how life or consciousness emerged in nature .Sir Don., why should I accept your challenge when you have ignored mine for so many posts. But, in an attempt at fairness, I have six words for you: ................................Limited Evolution, and or Natural SelectionMaybe you should answer your own question here my friend. How would you construct the means for the onset of life?But first, you'll need to define life. What is life Don.?Secondly, what makes consciousness different from other forms of mental activity?Thirdly and lastly, What is Nature?
Quote from: dlorde on 03/12/2013 20:15:32Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 18:05:45... nature cannot "generate " life or consciousness...So now life and consciousness are unnatural are they, Don?Not unnatural, they just cannot be "generated " by nature , otherwise , let any materialist out there ,or any naturalist non-reductionist account for the nature of life or consciousness fully naturalistically .In other words :Let them explain to us how life or consciousness emerged in nature .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 18:05:45... nature cannot "generate " life or consciousness...So now life and consciousness are unnatural are they, Don?
... nature cannot "generate " life or consciousness...
CherylQuotethere are properties of objects which cannot (in principle) be explained in physical termsWhy can't I think of any examples? There are plenty of things I can't explain in practice, but I have no reason to believe that they can't be explained at all by anyone ever.
there are properties of objects which cannot (in principle) be explained in physical terms
Yes; a philosophical zombie may be conceivable, but it seems to me that a creature that is behaviourally indistinguishable from a known conscious creature must itself be conscious because that level of behavioural complexity requires consciousness - or to put it another way, consciousness comes with the level of complexity required to support those behaviours. Also, the energetics of evolutionary development suggests that consciousness is unlikely to be an 'optional extra' that has no significant advantage, yet consumes energy resource.
Materialism is false , simply because materialism cannot account for consciousness , not because materialism cannot explain consciousness , but simply because physics and chemistry alone cannot "generate " consciousness , the latter that cannot rise from matter .
That religious dualism cannot explain consciousness either , that does not make the fact go away that consciousness is ...immaterial .
P.S.: The so-called non-reductionist naturalism ,either that that was proposed by either Chalmers ,Nagel, or others , as an alternative to the false reductionist naturalist materialism, can also not account for consciousness , in the sense that nature cannot "generate " consciousness or life ...."
What is immaterialism ? what is that ? you must have been referring to ...idealism, i guess = all is mind = also false,as the materialist "all is matter " conception of nature is also false .
When i say that not "all is matter " = that means : matter is not the only reality ,the immaterial side of reality is the other part of reality = the other side of the same coin : reality has both material and immaterial sides
I wonder why you restrict it to humans? AFAIK all animals have a concept of self, and it's a fairly basic necessity. Alas, we'll never know.
Human Consciousness: An advanced state of mental activity where the physical brain makes acquaintance with the self.........................Ethos
My personal definition and my last post in this thread.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 17:24:27What is immaterialism ? what is that ? you must have been referring to ...idealism, i guess = all is mind = also false,as the materialist "all is matter " conception of nature is also false .Who is playing games now, Don?
QuoteWhen i say that not "all is matter " = that means : matter is not the only reality ,the immaterial side of reality is the other part of reality = the other side of the same coin : reality has both material and immaterial sides Immaterialism is the belief in the immaterial side of reality, that other side of the coin of which you speak.
Quote from: Ethos_ on 04/12/2013 04:10:32Human Consciousness: An advanced state of mental activity where the physical brain makes acquaintance with the self.........................EthosWrong : physics and chemistry cannot account for our conscious subjective experiences and states,let alone for the whole process of consciousness as such .QuoteMy personal definition and my last post in this thread.That's a non-definition .Consciousness is so elusive ,deceptive and mysterious that it has been escaping any clear definition for thousands of years now so far , and consciousness will remain so , for nobody knows how long still ,for ever maybe .I think that consciousness will remain beyond science in fact .Why didn't you even try to make the slightest effort to read just some of the excerpts i did post ? instead of continuing to listen to your own music alone ?: what an unscientific attitude of yours .
Quote from: Ethos_ on 04/12/2013 04:10:32Human Consciousness: An advanced state of mental activity where the physical brain makes acquaintance with the self.........................EthosWrong : physics and chemistry cannot account for our conscious subjective experiences and states,let alone for the whole process of consciousness as such .QuoteMy personal definition and my last post in this thread.That's a non-definition .
Only religious idealism is true
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 03/12/2013 17:24:27Materialism is false , simply because materialism cannot account for consciousness , not because materialism cannot explain consciousness , but simply because physics and chemistry alone cannot "generate " consciousness , the latter that cannot rise from matter .why not?
QuoteThat religious dualism cannot explain consciousness either , that does not make the fact go away that consciousness is ...immaterial .That's not a fact. It's an assertion. And if the immaterial "fails to explain" consciousness, it must be false by your own reasoning.
QuoteP.S.: The so-called non-reductionist naturalism ,either that that was proposed by either Chalmers ,Nagel, or others , as an alternative to the false reductionist naturalist materialism, can also not account for consciousness , in the sense that nature cannot "generate " consciousness or life ...."Nor can immaterial mechanisms generate it, or at least you haven't explained how.
Don, your reasoning is based on process of elimination ie If there's known material mechanism, it must be immaterial. But that argument is your undoing, because it's easily reversed - If there's no known immaterial mechanism, it must be material. All that really counts is evidence that directly supports your claim.
Only religious idealism is true = reality is both matter and mind , the latter that's irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again = that's the only conception of nature out there that does make sense in fact .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 04/12/2013 18:00:56Only religious idealism is true Based on what evidence?
Quote from: cheryl j on 04/12/2013 01:32:53That's not a fact. It's an assertion. And if the immaterial "fails to explain" consciousness, it must be false by your own reasoning. It is a fact to me at least, and to any other sane and intelligent person , no offense .
That's not a fact. It's an assertion. And if the immaterial "fails to explain" consciousness, it must be false by your own reasoning.
Religious dualism has its own metaphysical explanations of consciousness that are unfalsifiable = unscientific , but not necessarily false