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Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.
For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going toaccept you theory just on your faith in it .
Nevermind what i do happen to believe in
Quote from: Grimbo1 on 27/12/2013 19:44:31Don you keep saying "in this life at least". You have religion then ?.no wonder you cant see the wood for the trees.Exactly Grimbo,.......He has a spiritual agenda. And the minute anyone begins to agree with his absurd assertions, about consciousness somehow transcending the material brain, he'll begin to associate it with his religious belief system.
Brain activity equals consciousness.Without brain activity, no consciousness.
Maybe he should start referring to his position as SPIRTUIAL AWARENESS instead of consciousness. He'll have to disassociate the brain from his theory if he's going to be the least bit consistent. In any case, I think that's where he is ultimately headed anyway.
Consciousness is nothing but its subjective content experiences states ...or qualia that cannot be accounted for by brain activity ,or by physics and chemistry .Science has not been able so far , for obvious reasons , to link the subjective conscious states and experiences to ...brain activity .Consciousness that cannot be but non-physical or non-material = irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 27/12/2013 20:40:40Consciousness is nothing but its subjective content experiences states ...or qualia that cannot be accounted for by brain activity ,or by physics and chemistry .Science has not been able so far , for obvious reasons , to link the subjective conscious states and experiences to ...brain activity .Consciousness that cannot be but non-physical or non-material = irreducible to the physical or to the material ,once again .You're preaching to the choir Don.............., a membership of one. I think you're singing solo Don......................and off key I might add.
Hopeless ...
Quote from: Grimbo1 on 27/12/2013 20:05:51For science to be liberated from materialism you need to provide proof.I am sure science would love a new branch, but science is not going toaccept you theory just on your faith in it .You're wasting your time; we've been over this many times, why he's attacking a straw man, why he has the burden of proof, the lack of evidence for the immaterial, the evidence consciousness is a material process, etc., etc.He has failed to absorb any of it, or is being deliberately obtuse. He won't provide intelligent argument or explanation, just obsessively repeats his anti-materialist dogma, interspersed with insult-laden rants and chapters of copyright material from the speculative fringe.Boring.
I did deliver the arguments concerning the undeniable falsehood of materialism , mainly via relevant excerpts of top books on the subject .
(There is , once again, plenty of evidence and arguments contained in my posted excerpts ,for everybody to see,not just speculations or opinions views,regarding the undeniable falsehood and absurdity of the materialist mainstream "scientific world view " .)
The materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been assuming , for so long now , that reality is just material or physical, including the mind
the 'scientific world view " has been taking that false assumption, or rather false materialist conception of nature for granted as an 'empirical fact " so far :
The burden of proof is yours to address then.............
In other words :Has science ever proved the materialist "fact ", or rather the materialist core belief assumption to be "true ", regarding the nature of reality ? Is the materialist "all is matter ,including the mind " mainstream 'scientific world view " 's version of reality an empirical fact then ? Is reality just material or physical as all sciences have been assuming it to be , since the 19th century at least ?Can you try to answer just that ?
Science has also not proved that ancient astronauts didn't visit the earth and provide technological assistance to ancient cultures, help build the pyramids. Do you believe this? Why or why not? Do you believe Q-ray ion bracelets relieve pain from arthritis? Do you believe in homeopathic medicine? Chakra readings? Reiki? Channeling the spirits of the dead? L Ron Hubbard's Scientology? Creationism? Torsion fields? Numerology? Pyramidology? Crystal healing? Alien abductions? Since you don't require empirical evidence to support your own claims or theories, and since materialist scientific world view is obviously false and based on a misconception of nature, and its findings can't be trusted, there is no reason why you shouldn't accept any and all of the above things as equally valid ideas.
By Don's logic magic, astrology, religion, etc. are also science and its up to science to disproof them.He does not understand the scientific process at all.
Nevermind what i do happen to believe in ,that's neither my motivation nor my 'argument " in relation to trying to make you realise the undeniable falshood of the materialist mainstream 'scientific world view ", i just do keep my own beliefs outside of science ,
in total contrast with materialism as a dogmatic unfalsifiable false secular religion in science that has been imposing itself as the "scientific world view ".
But , fact is , materialism goes beyond science ,beyond its method ,beyond its realm and jurisdiction , by assuming that reality is just physical or material .
Worse : that false materialist world view has been the 'scientific world view " = all sciences have been materialist ,in the above mentioned sense thus , while science should be neither materialist nor otherwise .Science should be metaphysically neutral thus
Quote from: Grimbo1 on 28/12/2013 16:50:50By Don's logic magic, astrology, religion, etc. are also science and its up to science to disproof them.He does not understand the scientific process at all.Non-sense : you have just landed , Eagle ,so, you're not in a position ,and you have no right to utter such utter non-sense,simply because you have missed a lot here that's been going on in this and other threads as well .You might be the one who does need to improve your own conception of science , i guess .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 27/12/2013 18:57:03(There is , once again, plenty of evidence and arguments contained in my posted excerpts ,for everybody to see,not just speculations or opinions views,regarding the undeniable falsehood and absurdity of the materialist mainstream "scientific world view " .) There's lots of argument in your excerpts, but very little evidence, and almost none of it empirical or from experiments. The vast majority is criticism of materialism for not immediately providing answers to everything, and the leap in logic that therefore "materialism is false"
QuoteThe materialist mainstream "scientific world view " has been assuming , for so long now , that reality is just material or physical, including the mindIt doesn't assume that. It just requires evidence from anyone who claims a supernatural or immaterial process is a mechanism for why something happens. It requires the same thing from anyone claiming a new, unknown material mechanism, so there is no double standard.
Quotethe 'scientific world view " has been taking that false assumption, or rather false materialist conception of nature for granted as an 'empirical fact " so far : The only thing that is an "empirical fact" are the individual, specific empirical facts and observations from individual, specific reproducible experiments. Deliver your experimental evidence and that evidence will be an empirical fact as well.
QuoteThe burden of proof is yours to address then.............No, it's not. Again, you're attributing to others a claim that was never made, and demanding that they defend an argument that they haven't put forth.
QuoteIn other words :Has science ever proved the materialist "fact ", or rather the materialist core belief assumption to be "true ", regarding the nature of reality ? Is the materialist "all is matter ,including the mind " mainstream 'scientific world view " 's version of reality an empirical fact then ? Is reality just material or physical as all sciences have been assuming it to be , since the 19th century at least ?Can you try to answer just that ? No, because your request is impossible and illogical. The only way to prove that "all is matter" is to prove that nothing is, was, or ever will be, or even could be, immaterial. Again, you are asking people to prove an infinite number of propositions an infinite number of times.
Science has also not proved that ancient astronauts didn't visit the earth and provide technological assistance to ancient cultures, help build the pyramids. Do you believe this? Why or why not? Do you believe Q-ray ion bracelets relieve pain from arthritis? Do you believe in homeopathic medicine? Chakra readings? Reiki? Channeling the spirits of the dead? L Ron Hubbard's Scientology? Creationism? Torsion fields? Numerology? Pyramidology? Crystal healing? Alien abductions?
Since you don't require empirical evidence to support your own claims or theories, and since materialist scientific world view is obviously false and based on a misconception of nature, and its findings can't be trusted, there is no reason why you shouldn't accept any and all of the above things as equally valid ideas.
Doncall your friend Karl Popper in his grave. If he answers get him on here, then you will have a convert.