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Once again : the observer and the observed are inseparable : the subjective and objective are inseparable : the subjective interferes with the objective : or as Von Neumann used to say : the measurement paradox in QM takes place in the mind , so , we take the respresentations of the mind in that regard for the physical reality in QM , for example .Take a closer look at the work and results of PEAR . For example , even at the macro level : have you ever been so immersed in your creative work, or other life experiences , art ....to the extent that you "lost " yourself in that environment ?
When we do or feel, experience things through our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment . We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment . The whole universe is in fact interconnected = 1, whether we are aware of that fact or not : this is no new age bullshit . Even when you are working on your pc, or walking out your dog , you are interacting with them and with the rest of your environment at that time and place and beyond , influencing them , and vice versa , by exchanging information with them, consciously or subcosnciously .Only when you think, analyze things ...you get the impression or illusion that you are separate or independent from your environment in some way .
... I sometimes wonder what would happen to a disembodied brain/mind completely disconnected from all sensory input, how long it would continue to think thoughts, ask itself questions, or replay memories on its own, or if conscious experience would slowly fade, even with a sufficient energy source.
alancalverd : As a quantum physicist yourself : can you replicate Schmidt's experiments Carter was talking about in one of his displayed excerpts here above ? or just some experiments of PEAR ?
author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg443302#msg443302 date=1414537830]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 28/10/2014 20:06:43You can't just dismiss what PEAR did and found out , just through saying that they made some errors here and there...Who's dismissing them? - I already said what a service they've been to improving experimental methodology []
You can't just dismiss what PEAR did and found out , just through saying that they made some errors here and there...
Sadly, sometimes the 'errors here and there' invalidate your results. When you set out to find some very small effect (you know it must be small because previous results have been equivocal), it's easy to fall prey to a number of biases, chiefly expectation bias. This involves the temptation to emphasise 'positive' results as successes and demphasise 'negative' results as failures (something must have been wrong), and to interpret runs in random data as significant, etc. This is the same bias that makes you want to ignore the PEAR errors and the failed replications because it looked like they got the results you wanted the first time. That's poor science, and why good studies use proper controls, double or triple blinding, and don't make a fuss until they've been replicated [8
If you look at the history of psi research, you'll see consistent trends in the results - the more meticulous the design, methodology, controls, blinding, and analysis, the less positive results are obtained. Over time, the relative numbers of positive results have dropped as experimental techniques and understanding of data analysis improved. The closer and more carefully you look, the less there is anything to see but random distribution [8]
QuoteEverytime we talk about this or that , you , guys , always say : oh , it was refuted , or it was bullshit , or there was something wrong with the experiments or their interpretations , there was fraud , bias , confirmation bias , wishful thinking ...Come on . You can't blame us for their mistakes []
Everytime we talk about this or that , you , guys , always say : oh , it was refuted , or it was bullshit , or there was something wrong with the experiments or their interpretations , there was fraud , bias , confirmation bias , wishful thinking ...Come on .
Quote from: cheryl j on 29/10/2014 14:04:09... I sometimes wonder what would happen to a disembodied brain/mind completely disconnected from all sensory input, how long it would continue to think thoughts, ask itself questions, or replay memories on its own, or if conscious experience would slowly fade, even with a sufficient energy source.In external sensory deprivation (e.g. body temp flotation tanks), hallucinations occur, presumably as neural system 'noise' is the only apparent input. But these systems only isolate external senses, all the internal ones remain as normal, so in the sense you're referring to, it's only partial sensory deprivation. I suspect that with full sensory deprivation (no input to the brain at all) brain activity would fairly quickly become chaotic, with no stable sense of identity or self, leading to complete dissociation. I doubt whether any meaningful consciousness would persist for long. I wouldn't want to be the first to find out!
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 28/10/2014 20:49:43Don't you realise the fact , dlorde , that you have just replaced the appearance of design in nature by yet another form of design ? , a highly implausible one at that , that is : that of the almighty lol unguided blind random gradual , step by step, highly unlikely , mathematically impossible , lottery lol of the mysterious( Like that mysterious invisible hand of the market lol ) so-called natural selection through random mutations ...(Even James A.Shapiro and others have already refuted that neo-Darwinian genetic determinism .) ...May God bless the invisible mysterious magical hand of the evolution-god lol that works through mysterious ways lol = materialist physics-metaphysics lol Just call it 'Evolution by Natural Selection'. Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic. Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.
Don't you realise the fact , dlorde , that you have just replaced the appearance of design in nature by yet another form of design ? , a highly implausible one at that , that is : that of the almighty lol unguided blind random gradual , step by step, highly unlikely , mathematically impossible , lottery lol of the mysterious( Like that mysterious invisible hand of the market lol ) so-called natural selection through random mutations ...(Even James A.Shapiro and others have already refuted that neo-Darwinian genetic determinism .) ...May God bless the invisible mysterious magical hand of the evolution-god lol that works through mysterious ways lol = materialist physics-metaphysics lol
When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .<snipped for brevity>
Quote from: dlorde on 28/10/2014 23:20:18Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic. Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.I was just trying to spice up this discussion through introducing some form of amusing humour , that's all, dlorde .
Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic. Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.
The mind just expresses itself through its medium the brain, both ways : the mind interacts with its outer environment , the brain included , via both inserting in and extracting information from it .So, if the mind gets deprived of that information , it does not mean the mind gets altered or that it disappears : it just gets blocked , since the brain acts a bit like a filter , a kindda valva for the mind through which the latter has to express itself , both ways .That limitig capacity of the brain explains why certain drugs can expand consciousness or reduce it , and that if certain areas of the brain are damaged , then certain aspects of consciousness seem to be either reduced , or gone ...When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2014 19:32:11When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .<snipped for brevity>This is a science forum. Mysticism and/or religion forums are available elsewhere.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2014 19:53:24Quote from: dlorde on 28/10/2014 23:20:18Don, your posts have started to become less rational and more childishly sarcastic. Please get a grip, and don't let them degenerate into the pointless abuse and name-calling they did in other threads.I was just trying to spice up this discussion through introducing some form of amusing humour , that's all, dlorde .OK; if that's what passes for humour in your neck of the woods, colour me serious.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443350#msg443350 date=1414613383]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2014 19:32:11The mind just expresses itself through its medium the brain, both ways : the mind interacts with its outer environment , the brain included , via both inserting in and extracting information from it .So, if the mind gets deprived of that information , it does not mean the mind gets altered or that it disappears : it just gets blocked , since the brain acts a bit like a filter , a kindda valva for the mind through which the latter has to express itself , both ways .That limitig capacity of the brain explains why certain drugs can expand consciousness or reduce it , and that if certain areas of the brain are damaged , then certain aspects of consciousness seem to be either reduced , or gone ...When you will die , your consciousness will be liberated from your limiting brain and body , and then , it will be able to express itself fully , making you awake through higher and full levels of consciousness .You don't find it odd that damaging the brain appears to limit or alter consciousness, but completely destroying the brain restores or liberates it? And you know this true because.......? And a brain is necessary for receiving and processing information and expressing itself before death but not after?
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443326#msg443326 date=1414589614]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 28/10/2014 19:42:09Once again : the observer and the observed are inseparable : the subjective and objective are inseparable : the subjective interferes with the objective : or as Von Neumann used to say : the measurement paradox in QM takes place in the mind , so , we take the respresentations of the mind in that regard for the physical reality in QM , for example .Take a closer look at the work and results of PEAR . For example , even at the macro level : have you ever been so immersed in your creative work, or other life experiences , art ....to the extent that you "lost " yourself in that environment ? What? You pull examples from ordinary experience to illustrate a scientific concept, and the examples are not at all causally related or relevant, only superficially similar. The fact that someone who is focused on an interesting activity pays less attention to other environmental stimuli does not prove anything about quantum mechanics or the observer effect or that consciousness is immaterial. It no more demonstrates that than my saying "Time flies while you're having fun" proves Special Relativity.
QuoteQuoteWhen we do or feel, experience things through our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment . We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment . The whole universe is in fact interconnected = 1, whether we are aware of that fact or not : this is no new age bullshit . Even when you are working on your pc, or walking out your dog , you are interacting with them and with the rest of your environment at that time and place and beyond , influencing them , and vice versa , by exchanging information with them, consciously or subcosnciously .Only when you think, analyze things ...you get the impression or illusion that you are separate or independent from your environment in some way .
QuoteWhen we do or feel, experience things through our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment . We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment . The whole universe is in fact interconnected = 1, whether we are aware of that fact or not : this is no new age bullshit . Even when you are working on your pc, or walking out your dog , you are interacting with them and with the rest of your environment at that time and place and beyond , influencing them , and vice versa , by exchanging information with them, consciously or subcosnciously .Only when you think, analyze things ...you get the impression or illusion that you are separate or independent from your environment in some way .
When we do or feel, experience things through our whole beings , we become inseparately one with our environment . Only when we think , try to analyze things , we get the illusion or impression , or perception that we are separate from our environment . We are always immersed in our inner and outer environments , while exchanging information, energy , matter with our environments , consciously or sub-consciously .Sometimes , we are not aware of that , so, we have the illusion that we are separate beings or separate individuals from our environment .
When the brain is damaged , that does not mean that consciousness gets altered , reduced or that it disappears : it is still there , it just gets blocked since its brain channels are damaged or disconnected .
See those above mentioned relatively short PEAR scholarly papers on the subject .
It is complicated and incomprehensible. Some things just are mysterious.
Why does DNA have the instructions to build a brain at all? At what point do a set of brain cells start thinking? How many are needed before this starts? How much information is hard wired? Is any information hard wired? Why is it hard wired? Is that because it is passed from mother to child? Have I asked enough questions yet? It is complicated and incomprehensible. Some things just are mysterious.
author=cheryl j link=topic=52526.msg443364#msg443364 date=1414632421]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 29/10/2014 21:09:25See those above mentioned relatively short PEAR scholarly papers on the subject .How does one get from 'PEARS seemed to generate some non random numbers' to 'my consciousness, including all my memories, ideas, beliefs, feelings, personality traits will continue to exist after my death without my brain for all of eternity.'
It would be one thing to claim that brain damage and drugs simply prevented other people from detecting my conscious experience, but if I myself am aware that I can no longer perform the mental functions that I desire to and could once do with ease (as stroke victims attest) that would seem, as you are so fond of saying, paradoxical to say the least.
While I am struggling in my robot body, is my "real" consciousness up there performing all these mental operations perfectly? You're essentially saying that my own subjective experience of my consciousness is false, while the one I cannot even access, control, communicate with, and am not aware of, is the "true" one.