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QuoteNote:light = lower frequency .......... as seen from lower gravity potentialNote:Clock = higher frequency.............as seen from the lower gravity potential)Spot the difference?Here's the diference: the first statement is untrue. As you stated, correctly at the outset:QuoteBlue shifted light is light travelling towards a gravity field. The frequency of the light increases the closer it gets to the body of mass....so if you are standing on the surface of the earth (i.e. "as seen from lower gravity potential") you see the blue shift of a photon originating at the top of the tower. And the clock at the top of the tower appears to be faster - for the same reason.Always happy to consider a new idea, but not if it is derived from an obvious untruth.
Note:light = lower frequency .......... as seen from lower gravity potentialNote:Clock = higher frequency.............as seen from the lower gravity potential)Spot the difference?
Blue shifted light is light travelling towards a gravity field. The frequency of the light increases the closer it gets to the body of mass.
The photon emitted at top of tower blues shifts towards bottom of tower. Its frequency is increased as it travels towards bottom of tower.................Therefore I am certain that I am 100% correct when I state that light will always have a lower frequency as seen from the lower gravity potential.
Quote from: timey on 10/07/2016 11:37:18The photon emitted at top of tower blues shifts towards bottom of tower. Its frequency is increased as it travels towards bottom of tower.................Therefore I am certain that I am 100% correct when I state that light will always have a lower frequency as seen from the lower gravity potential. Come on, lass, these statements are exactly contradictory! The first one is correct.
As light travels towards a gravitational field, (earth), it increases in frequency. When the light reaches earth its frequency is higher than it was before it got there.Lights frequency as seen from the lower gravity potential is always lower than it will be than when that same light reaches the lower gravity potential.
Quote from: timey on 10/07/2016 13:34:57As light travels towards a gravitational field, (earth), it increases in frequency. When the light reaches earth its frequency is higher than it was before it got there.Lights frequency as seen from the lower gravity potential is always lower than it will be than when that same light reaches the lower gravity potential.How can you see it if it hasn't arrived?
A photon arriving at ground level has a higher frequency than it did when emitted at 1 metre.(blue shift)
Quote from: timey on 10/07/2016 17:25:32A photon arriving at ground level has a higher frequency than it did when emitted at 1 metre.(blue shift)and a GPS clock signal arriving at ground level has a higher frequency than it did when emitted at orbital height.Same phenomenon, same equation, no anomaly.
how can it be said that time runs at a faster rate in space, and a slower rate closer to a body of mass?
Are you saying it is because the frequency of the signal that is transporting the time reading of the clock in space to earth increases as it moves into the stronger gravity field, that we observe the time of the clock to be faster relative to a clock on the ground?
Quotehow can it be said that time runs at a faster rate in space, and a slower rate closer to a body of mass?Everything depends on where you measure it, relative to where it originated.
Quotehow can it be said that time runs at a faster rate in space, and a slower rate closer to a body of mass?Everything depends on where you measure it, relative to where it originated. Your clock is in space, mine is on the ground, so according to my clock, yours is running faster. Your photon source is at the top of a tower, so according to my mossbauer receiver on the ground, it is emitting photons with a higher energy than an Fe57 source on the ground. These are undeniable observations. Since neither depends on the mass of the source, we must conclude that gravitation is warping spacetime.QuoteAre you saying it is because the frequency of the signal that is transporting the time reading of the clock in space to earth increases as it moves into the stronger gravity field, that we observe the time of the clock to be faster relative to a clock on the ground? No, though it is true that the carrier signal also undergoes blue shift. If you set the space clock to emit a pulse - say a single photon - every second, the pulses will arrive at slightly less than 1 second intervals as measured by my clock. This is what is observed.
Exactly. Blue shift depends on the difference in gravitational potential between the source and the observer. If you move the source closer to the detector, the blue shift is less. Please note and understand every word.
The Fe57 source has emitted a higher energy photon at top of tower than it would at bottom of tower.
The cesium atoms energy transitions are lower in frequency and energy at the bottom of the tower than they are at the top of the tower.
Quote from: timey on 11/07/2016 23:52:41The Fe57 source has emitted a higher energy photon at top of tower than it would at bottom of tower.No. The photon emission process and energy is exactly the same. The perceived blue shift is due to the gravitational potential difference between the source and the observer. Quote The cesium atoms energy transitions are lower in frequency and energy at the bottom of the tower than they are at the top of the tower.No. The hyperfine transition process is exactly the same . The change in perceived clock rate is due to the gravitational potential difference between the source and the observer. Both the photon blue shift and the perceived clock rate anomaly are, as you say, in the same direction. The received photon is at a higher frequency than one generated locally, and the recevied clock rate is at a higher frequency than one generated locally. As you keep quoting the same experimental results, why do you keep insisting that they are different? Goebbels was not a physicist!
"Your photon source is at the top of a tower, so ACCORDING TO MY MOSSBAUER RECEIVER ON THE GROUND, it is emitting photons with a higher energy than an Fe57 source on the ground."
Quote"Your photon source is at the top of a tower, so ACCORDING TO MY MOSSBAUER RECEIVER ON THE GROUND, it is emitting photons with a higher energy than an Fe57 source on the ground."Every word matters!If my receiver was at the top of the tower, it wouldn't see a blue shift. The emitted energy is exactly the same everywhere - because there's no reason for it to change. The received energy depends on the gravitational potential difference between emitter and receiver. Whjat is the difference between a coconut on the ground (harmless) and one falling from a tree (lethal)? Kinetic energy due to the change in gravitational potential.
As you insist on making everything more complicated that it needs to be, have it your own way, and don't blame me if the world doesn't make sense.
what I am saying has to be true because of quantum physics...
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/07/2016 10:06:16Quote"Your photon source is at the top of a tower, so ACCORDING TO MY MOSSBAUER RECEIVER ON THE GROUND, it is emitting photons with a higher energy than an Fe57 source on the ground."Place the mossbauer receiver at top of tower with the Fe57 source in the uniform gravity field, (horizontal experiment), the mossbauer receiver receives the photon.The energy of the mausbuar receiver has to have also increased at the top of tower position.Both the Fe57 source and the mossbauer receiver have increased in energy and frequency at top of tower relative to being placed at bottom of tower.The photon emitted at top of tower has increased in energy and frequency at bottom of tower relative to when it was emitted at top of tower.The difference between a photon, and a mossbauer receiver and Fe57 source, is that both the mossbauer receiver and the Fe57 sour e have rest mass and the photon doesn't.The discussion of relative position is always a struggle to grasp. The transmitter is composed of physical things such as crystals. The crystal oscillates at different frequencies depending upon the gravitational field. If you put it in water, as the pressure increases the crystal will oscillate slower. The transmitter higher up from the bottom of the water will have a higher frequency. thus for the transmitter in the tower it will have a higher frequency due to a lower gravitational pressure. It is also moving faster as the Earth orbits as compared to the ground. This will tend to slow the clock. So we get a faster speed due to less gravitational pressure and a slower speed due to the faster motion of the clock. You guys agree that measurements have shown the net result is the tower clock is faster with a higher energy level. You can attribute this to variations in space and time or just simple variations in the gravitational field.
Quote"Your photon source is at the top of a tower, so ACCORDING TO MY MOSSBAUER RECEIVER ON THE GROUND, it is emitting photons with a higher energy than an Fe57 source on the ground."Place the mossbauer receiver at top of tower with the Fe57 source in the uniform gravity field, (horizontal experiment), the mossbauer receiver receives the photon.The energy of the mausbuar receiver has to have also increased at the top of tower position.Both the Fe57 source and the mossbauer receiver have increased in energy and frequency at top of tower relative to being placed at bottom of tower.The photon emitted at top of tower has increased in energy and frequency at bottom of tower relative to when it was emitted at top of tower.The difference between a photon, and a mossbauer receiver and Fe57 source, is that both the mossbauer receiver and the Fe57 sour e have rest mass and the photon doesn't.