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author=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443102#msg443102 date=1414251611]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/10/2014 20:26:06Ethos, dlorde, Cheryl, alancalverd : Does the following famous and simple double slit experiment not show clearly that consciousness does collapse the wave function ? (Dr.Quantum amusing version ) ,without any tranfer of energy whatsoever ? :No. But if you want the long answer, note that G I Taylor's single-photon interference pattern (the one that gets everybody excited) used photographic film as the recording medium. To the best of my knowledge, photographic film has nothing that even our friend Don Quichotte would describe as consciousness, is not imbued with the ability to anticipate that it might be viewed by a conscious being, and, when developed and fixed, is unaffected retrospectively by the opinion or consciousness of the viewer. Thus the double slit experiment proves that the collapse of the wave function, if that is how you want to describe single photon interference, is NOT dependent on consciousness.
Ethos, dlorde, Cheryl, alancalverd : Does the following famous and simple double slit experiment not show clearly that consciousness does collapse the wave function ? (Dr.Quantum amusing version ) ,without any tranfer of energy whatsoever ? :
I should have studied QM indeed : working on that .
Quoteauthor=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443102#msg443102 date=1414251611]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 24/10/2014 20:26:06Ethos, dlorde, Cheryl, alancalverd : Does the following famous and simple double slit experiment not show clearly that consciousness does collapse the wave function ? (Dr.Quantum amusing version ) ,without any tranfer of energy whatsoever ? :No. But if you want the long answer, note that G I Taylor's single-photon interference pattern (the one that gets everybody excited) used photographic film as the recording medium. To the best of my knowledge, photographic film has nothing that even our friend Don Quichotte would describe as consciousness, is not imbued with the ability to anticipate that it might be viewed by a conscious being, and, when developed and fixed, is unaffected retrospectively by the opinion or consciousness of the viewer. Thus the double slit experiment proves that the collapse of the wave function, if that is how you want to describe single photon interference, is NOT dependent on consciousness.I was not talking about the double slit experiment using light or photons , but about the other one using electrons . Halloo .
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2014 16:51:11I should have studied QM indeed : working on that .Good luck. It's not particularly difficult, as long as you stick to the physics and don't read too much pseudoscientific New Age bunkum. Marijuana and LSD are no subsitute for elementary vector algebra.
Many eminent physicists talk about the conscious collapse of the wave function : see Carter's excerpts .
What kindda scientific mess or confusion is this then ? Science sounds like some sort of a religion regarding the interpretation of quantum theory at least : so many scientific "sectes " lol telling different stories about the same theory and more
... how can Caroll say with such unscientific confidence that the standard model of quantum field theory rules out the existence of any psi phenomena ...? since the materialist theory of the nature of reality is certainly false .
The whole universe is quantum mechanical in fact , as you know .
Yeah, right : Big caliber eminent scientists such as Von Neumann and most founders of quantum physics + many eminent physicists even today say that consciousness does collapse the wave function,
So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
Quote from: dlordeSo accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html
author=dlorde link=topic=52526.msg443124#msg443124 date=1414271634]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2014 16:24:33Many eminent physicists talk about the conscious collapse of the wave function : see Carter's excerpts .It's an interpretation of what the means in physical terms; a wavefunction in superposition of states appears to collapse to a single state under interaction/measurement/observation. You can intepret this as a real wavefunction collapse or as one observer's view of a bigger picture where the wavefunction continues to evolve in superposition, but encompasses the observer in that superposition. The former has multiple difficulties explaining what 'wavefunction collapse' really means and precisely when it occurs, the latter says there really isn't a collapse, but has a large incredulity factor (because it involves the concept of a multiverse).
QuoteWhat kindda scientific mess or confusion is this then ? Science sounds like some sort of a religion regarding the interpretation of quantum theory at least : so many scientific "sectes " lol telling different stories about the same theory and moreThe theory is fine, it's the best theory ever devised, and works like a charm. The interpretations are ways to get you head around what's actually happening. Many physicists say 'forget the interpretations, just shut up and calculate'.
Quote... how can Caroll say with such unscientific confidence that the standard model of quantum field theory rules out the existence of any psi phenomena ...? since the materialist theory of the nature of reality is certainly false .He explains it in painstaking detail in the lecture. QFT does such a good job of predicting how the world behaves at levels and energies including, and way beyond, the everyday, and its predictions have been so thoroughly tested at everyday levels (and beyond) that it's beyond all reasonable doubt that its model of the everyday is correct; plus, if there were any novel interactions strong enough to be relevant to our everyday world, they would have been detected by tests sensitive enough to detect interactions way below the threshold of everyday molecular biology interactions. Either something interacts or it doesn't. If it does, you can see the results of the interaction; if it doesn't, it isn't relevant.
Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2014 17:25:41The whole universe is quantum mechanical in fact , as you know .So accept what quantum field theory tells you. No unknown fields or forces that can influence your brain. No psi, or paranormal, or supernatural influences. Welcome to the real world.
[quote =alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443137#msg443137 date=1414279469]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 25/10/2014 17:18:47Yeah, right : Big caliber eminent scientists such as Von Neumann and most founders of quantum physics + many eminent physicists even today say that consciousness does collapse the wave function, But so far, the only experiment you have quoted clearly shows that it doesn't.
Perhaps you have misinterpreted your many eminent scientists? You won't be the first to have done so.
What's wrong with you , people ?The famous and simple double slit experiment with electrons, for example, clearly shows , beyond the shadow of a doubt , that the consciousness of the observer does indeed collapse the wave function: the observer and observed are inseparable
our beliefs and expectations shape our consciousness through our perception : the observer and observed are inseparable .
author=alancalverd link=topic=52526.msg443169#msg443169 date=1414346495]Quote from: DonQuichotte on 26/10/2014 17:50:01What's wrong with you , people ?The famous and simple double slit experiment with electrons, for example, clearly shows , beyond the shadow of a doubt , that the consciousness of the observer does indeed collapse the wave function: the observer and observed are inseparable I have never met anyone who has observed an electron, nor an electron that was aware it was being observed by a conscious being. Perhaps you could elucidate?
Quoteour beliefs and expectations shape our consciousness through our perception : the observer and observed are inseparable .Now there's a problem. The expectation of a rational man is that the electron, being stable and indivisible, must pass through one or other slit. Unfortunately the beliefs and expectations of a rational man, or even an idiot, are confounded by reality. And that is how science works.
Don't forget that the weird cloudy quantum world appears absurd to us on our large every-day scale . It doesn't behave like our every-day experiences .
The whole universe is in fact quantum mechanical, as Von Neumann used to say thus .
The wave/particle dual nature of particles depends on whethere or not they are observed .
Don't be too sure of yourself. Have you ever heard of the Pear Engineering Anomalies Laboratory? If not then see:http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/They did research in Human-Machine Anomalies and Remote Perception. This is not a crackpot operation and they did get positive experimental results! This work took place over a period of three decades. See:http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/theory.html