[Geezer]

"better to be safe than sorry"

If you lived your life by this motto you would never turn your microwave on or use a mobile phone. You'd never leave the house... Well, not unless you lived beneath power lines.

OK, just for the pedants in the house, 'in this particular case, it's better to be safe than sorry'.

Early versions of microwave ovens and mobile phones did emit dangerous EMF's which were attributed to tumours, headaches etc. In response to this, modern varieties of this technology are now tested against more stringent Emissions Regulations and as a result are much safer.

Even so, in the case of mobile phones, I would still suggest caution. The long term effect on health for extensive mobile phones remains unknown for infants and adults alike. For this reason, I would always use a landline in preference to a mobile and when I do use a mobile I tend to keep the conversation brief.

Most urban dwellers will be quite close to a mobile phone mast but close proximity is a real concern for many. Transmitter equipment specifications indicate safe working distances but once again the effect on health is very much an active field of research.

If you are content to live next to a mobile phone mast or directly below an HV cable then do so. But please refrain from advising people that the science is settled and that there is no risk. This is irresponsible, misleading and a misinterpretation of the outcomes of studies which have been carried out in the field.

All is not lost though, the photo and sound effect was great!

Yes, high frequency radio transmissions can be harmful.

However, if we want to be "better safe than sorry" with respect to 50Hz or 60Hz power systems, we should stay away from all such sources, which pretty much means we'd need to eliminate all line power from our homes.

We can't be selective about this. If we believe that low frequency power transmission is harmful for some, as yet, undiscovered reason, there is no basis for assuming that the same undiscovered reason does not make all low frequency power systems harmful. Therefore, we should advocate caution with respect to all such systems.

[Mootle]

"better to be safe than sorry"

If you lived your life by this motto you would never turn your microwave on or use a mobile phone. You'd never leave the house... Well, not unless you lived beneath power lines.

OK, just for the pedants in the house, 'in this particular case, it's better to be safe than sorry'.

Early versions of microwave ovens and mobile phones did emit dangerous EMF's which were attributed to tumours, headaches etc. In response to this, modern varieties of this technology are now tested against more stringent Emissions Regulations and as a result are much safer.

Even so, in the case of mobile phones, I would still suggest caution. The long term effect on health for extensive mobile phones remains unknown for infants and adults alike. For this reason, I would always use a landline in preference to a mobile and when I do use a mobile I tend to keep the conversation brief.

Most urban dwellers will be quite close to a mobile phone mast but close proximity is a real concern for many. Transmitter equipment specifications indicate safe working distances but once again the effect on health is very much an active field of research.

If you are content to live next to a mobile phone mast or directly below an HV cable then do so. But please refrain from advising people that the science is settled and that there is no risk. This is irresponsible, misleading and a misinterpretation of the outcomes of studies which have been carried out in the field.

All is not lost though, the photo and sound effect was great!

Yes, high frequency radio transmissions can be harmful.

However, if we want to be "better safe than sorry" with respect to 50Hz or 60Hz power systems, we should stay away from all such sources, which pretty much means we'd need to eliminate all line power from our homes.

We can't be selective about this. If we believe that low frequency power transmission is harmful for some, as yet, undiscovered reason, there is no basis for assuming that the same undiscovered reason does not make all low frequency power systems harmful. Therefore, we should advocate caution with respect to all such systems.

I never mentioned such a link but in order for you to make the statement you would have to fail to recognise that there's a difference between a 230V and a 132kV or say 275kV cable?

Cancer (in all its many guises,) is one of the biggest causes of death and despite all the research which has been pumped into that field, we are still a long way from discovering the causal pathways involved, let alone a cure. Science is not quite ready to reveal the answers on this one just yet so we should accept the limitations of our knowledge and procede with a little caution.

[LeeE]

Actually, there's probably a greater risk from all the ground mapping radars flying about in aircraft.

[Geezer]

I never mentioned such a link but in order for you to make the statement you would have to fail to recognise that there's a difference between a 230V and a 132kV or say 275kV cable?

Cancer (in all its many guises,) is one of the biggest causes of death and despite all the research which has been pumped into that field, we are still a long way from discovering the causal pathways involved, let alone a cure. Science is not quite ready to reveal the answers on this one just yet so we should accept the limitations of our knowledge and procede with a little caution.

Ah! So you are saying that this undiscovered phenomenon is a somehow related to voltage rather than current and that it's not a function of EMF.

But if we don't understand the phenomenon, how do we know a voltage is safer than any other voltage, or are you suggesting that you somehow understand the phenomenon and that you are able to determine what voltages are safer than others?

[Mootle]

I never mentioned such a link but in order for you to make the statement you would have to fail to recognise that there's a difference between a 230V and a 132kV or say 275kV cable?

Cancer (in all its many guises,) is one of the biggest causes of death and despite all the research which has been pumped into that field, we are still a long way from discovering the causal pathways involved, let alone a cure. Science is not quite ready to reveal the answers on this one just yet so we should accept the limitations of our knowledge and procede with a little caution.

Ah! So you are saying that this undiscovered phenomenon is a somehow related to voltage rather than current and that it's not a function of EMF.

But if we don't understand the phenomenon, how do we know a voltage is safer than any other voltage, or are you suggesting that you somehow understand the phenomenon and that you are able to determine what voltages are safer than others?

At the beginning of the thread you indicated that you had not done the calculations and from your comments I suspect that the situation has not changed.

However, since Karen's need for information seems to have passed I do not intend to continue with this thread.

[Geezer]

At the beginning of the thread you indicated that you had not done the calculations and from your comments I suspect that the situation has not changed.

As I mentioned previously, one of the links you posted pointed out that the magnetic field strength in a home is, as I suspected, greater than the field produced by high-tension power lines.

I think it's unfortunate that you are unwilling to pursue this topic futher. If there is a phenomenon, I'd really like to understand what it is. If there is no phenomenon, I'd like to settle the matter.

 

[Helenwh]

We all agree that there's probably a greater risk from all the ground mapping radars flying about in aircraft.

[Bored chemist]

We all agree that there's probably a greater risk from all the ground mapping radars flying about in aircraft.

Is this the "royal we"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural

[Mootle]

We all agree that there's probably a greater risk from all the ground mapping radars flying about in aircraft.

In order for anyone to consider this question you would first need to know:

1. The type of GMR is being used.
2. Voltage being carried.
3. Distance of cable from the person under test.
4. Exposure time to each signal.
5. Particular disposition of person under test to cancer.
6. Age of person under test.
7. Structure of the dwelling.
8. Height of GMR.
9. Location.
10. Climate etc etc etc.

Since no one has mentioned any of these parameters, it is difficult to know what is 'probably' a higher risk to health.

You can count me out of the consensus science thing.

[Make it Lady]

I'd love to know what caused my brother to die of cancer in his 30's. Lots of things have gone through my mind including this one. Most evidence seems to be for young children but it never seems to be as conclusive as I'd like. My brother sat on top of a bank of technology for large chunks of time. I often wonder about this as well. He also drove a truck which has indications for cancers in the digestive system.
The causes of cancer are always going to be debated strongly and electrical companies will throw lots of money to disprove conections with pylons just as any vested interest will guard its interest. When we look at data and evidence we always have to ask where the funding came from. I'm resigned to the knowledge that I'll never know what caused my brother's cancer but at the end of the day it is a problem that comes with being relatively well off. If we were really poor our illnesses would be different. There has to be a down side to being wealthy!
Rant over!

[Geezer]

MIL,

Sorry to hear of your loss. I too developed cancer (of the goolies) in my thirties, but I was fortunate to survive thanks to early detection and radiation therapy.

My cancer may have been the result of electromagnetic radiation, but if it was, it's very unlikely that it was produced from high tension power lines.

As the science stands today (despite what the popular press claims), as I understand it, power lines do a couple of things;

They radiate an electromagnetic field that is a function of the current flowing through the wires. Note that the voltage is made very large so that the current is relatively small. The power companies do that to minimize energy losses in the wires.

They produce an electric field. The electric field is a function of the voltage (which is large) but you can block the electric field with a sheet of aluminium foil. Also, electric fields are, and have always been, all around us. When you go up in an aeroplane, you, and the entire aeroplane are charged to thousands of volts relative to ground. Just walk across a nylon carpet, and you might achieve a 30,000 volt potential.

In my case, I suspect that if my cancer was not simply a genetic fluke it was much more likely that it resulted from nuclear bombardment (X-rays) of one sort or another, or from some carcinogenic chemical agent, and there were a lot of them.

[tangoblue]

Well i suppose i cant give you solid evidence but i did do it as a project in physics a while back and came acros a study on it. It did say that people living close to pilons had a bigger chance of getting cancer. it did give a reasson but i cant remember, sorry.

[Geezer]

Well i suppose i cant give you solid evidence but i did do it as a project in physics a while back and came acros a study on it. It did say that people living close to pilons had a bigger chance of getting cancer. it did give a reasson but i cant remember, sorry.

Well, that really helped a lot.

[robertjhon143]

Hi karen,
there are no known health risks that have been conclusively demonstrated to be caused by living near high-voltage power lines. But science is unable to prove a negative, including whether low-level EMFs are completely risk free. Most scientists believe that exposure to the low-level EMFs near power lines is safe, but some scientists continue research to look for possible health risks associated with these fields. If there are any risks such as cancer associated with living near power lines, then it is clear that those risks are small.

[tangoblue]

Geezer are you being sarcastic?

[Geezer]

Geezer are you being sarcastic?

Guilty as charged Guv.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no, zero, nada scientific evidence that links the EMF produced by HT power lines to any human illness. If you believe otherwise, you might want to immediately disconnect your home from any electric power source, because that is far more dangerous.

However, if you want to succumb to the influence of moneymaking media and lawyers without understanding the science, that's up to you.

[LeeE]

Like I said earlier in this thread, whether a particular EMR is harmful to health, or not, comes down to statistics.  If the incidence of problems is below the noise threshold of the statistical method used to assess the degree of danger then it'll be regarded as safe, even though it may clearly not have been for the very small number cases lost in the noise.

However, rather than being a criticism, or highlighting a failure of the statistical method, it really just reflects the nature of the problem; there is no clear and definitive answer, just a probability which, while in this particular case is vanishingly small, can never be zero.

[Geezer]

It's not impossible that there could be some correlation between incidence of disease and power lines. For example, homes built close to power lines are likely to be less expensive and they will be occupied by lower income families. This in turn could account for differences in health care, chemical agents and nutrition that can lead to higher incidence of certain diseases.

However, sorting all of that out to draw any meaningful conclusions would be extremely difficult.

I suppose it's possible that you are slightly less likely to be struck by lightning if you live near overhead lines. They must be very effective lightning conductors.

[SteveFish]

LeeE, your analysis of the statistics of noise is correct, however you are also uncertain if living under a high voltage power line might be beneficial, but the signal is lost in the noise. When a study of the entire population of Finland (and many other large samples in other countries) can't pull any signal from the noise, any harmful or beneficial effect is way too small to be worth considering.

Another problem with the power line and cell phone health question is that there is no known mechanism whereby the radiation can have an effect! The radiation from these sources is several orders of magnitude below the energy required to break chemical bonds (required to cause cancer). When one has no mechanism it is very inappropriate to attribute a specific cause (e.g. the radiation) and it is important to explore different hypotheses, such as socioeconomic status as suggested by Geezer.

Steve

[Geezer]

I must admit I keep coming back to this topic because I find it quite fascinating. Despite the fact that there really is no scientific evidence to link EMR from overhead power lines to cancers, it seems that many well educated scientists are willing to believe that there might actually be some connection, although they can't even begin to explain what that may be.

It does make me wonder if a lot of scientists are a lot more susceptible to sensational media exploits than they would care to admit. Personally, I don't think it's appropriate to keep one's options open. If the current science says one thing, either get behind it, or disprove it. I don't understand how being wishy/washy about it adds any value.