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  4. Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
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Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #540 on: 09/08/2025 08:23:18 »
Quantum measurement finally makes sense (it's just noise)
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #541 on: 09/08/2025 13:23:39 »
It always did (it isn't).
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #542 on: 11/08/2025 09:20:12 »
The interviewee in the video doesn't seem to agree. The title implies that it didn't make sense until noise is taken into account.
In macroscopic systems, their behaviors are predictable because the noise is insignificant compared to the signal. It's not the case in microscopic systems, where the noise overwhelms the signal. That's why we can only predict the probability, instead of particular result of experiments.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #543 on: 11/08/2025 10:48:24 »
You (and he) need to distinguish between (e.g. Boltzmann) noise and (Heisenberg) fundamental indeterminacy.

ΔpΔx = h determines the mechanical structure of a resistor. kT determines the random noise it generates.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #544 on: 11/08/2025 23:00:00 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 11/08/2025 10:48:24
You (and he) need to distinguish between (e.g. Boltzmann) noise and (Heisenberg) fundamental indeterminacy.

ΔpΔx = h determines the mechanical structure of a resistor. kT determines the random noise it generates.
Heisenberg indeterminacy is a mathematical consequence of Fourier analysis. It's related to how we define time and frequency.

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #545 on: 13/08/2025 14:32:09 »
Antennas Expose the Secrets of Light - Dr. Hans Schantz, DemystifySci
Quote
From the copper spines of antennas to the invisible dance of light, our conversation with Dr. Hans Schantz traces the story of physics most students never hear about. Dr. Schantz, a theoretical physicist turned engineer who studied under John Wheeler, unpacks the forgotten role of physical mediators in electromagnetism and what modern antenna design can reveal about light itself. Along the way, we wander through the epic moments of the 20th century quest for understanding light, from aether theory to pilot waves, connecting lost ideas to cutting-edge engineering. This is a signal worth listening to.


00:00 Go! Antenna Design and Light
00:06:02 Historical Context: The Development of Fields in Physics
00:11:30 The Evolution of Physics: From Newton to Abstract Principles
00:17:05 Induction vs. Deduction in Scientific Methodology
00:24:02 The Quest for Universal Understanding in Physics
00:28:34 The Shift from Ether to Relativity
00:34:05 The Conflict Between Theory and Observations
00:39:38 Historical Oversights in Physics
00:46:14 The Singular Nature of Electromagnetic Fields
00:48:03 History of Electromagnetism and Influential Figures
00:51:04 Einstein and the Concept of Ether
00:56:06 Quantum Mechanics and Debate with Einstein
01:00:45 The Impact of Positivism on Physics
01:09:01 Misguided Applications of Quantum Mechanics
01:11:44 Oppenheimer's Seminar and Pilot Wave Theory
01:18:06 Fundamental Crisis in Physics
01:21:21 Understanding Antennas and Light
01:30:05 Journey to Antenna Design
01:33:46 Near Field Electromagnetic Ranging
01:34:13 Signal Propagation and RF Fingerprinting
01:36:04 Electromagnetic Wave Properties
01:39:17 Q Factor and Energy Decoupling in Antennas
01:42:50 Effects of Medium on Transmission
01:46:45 Aether and Early 20th Century Experiments
01:50:33 Complexity of Electric and Magnetic Field Coupling
01:53:01 Phase Dynamics in Antenna Systems
01:56:54 Atomic Radiation as Antenna Behavior
01:57:36 Discussion of Quantum Mechanics and Atomic Behavior
01:59:12 Antenna Models and Radiation Mechanisms
02:01:24 Speculative Theories on Signal Transmission
02:04:47 Advancements in Understanding Electromagnetic Systems
02:10:31 Energy Dynamics in Electromagnetic Interference
02:14:38 Pilot Wave Theory and Its Connections
02:19:23 The Nature of Waves and the Concept of Medium
02:21:39 Discovery of Gamma Rays from the Earth
02:22:47 Opposition to Pilot Wave Theory
02:27:03 Understanding Radiation Reaction
02:30:11 Antenna Behavior and Radiation
02:32:03 Electromagnetic Fields and Energy Dynamics
02:34:44 Exploration of Fundamental Questions

ABOUS US:  Anastasia completed her PhD studying bioelectricity at Columbia University. When not talking to brilliant people or making movies, she spends her time painting, reading, and guiding backcountry excursions. Shilo also did his PhD at Columbia studying the elastic properties of molecular water. When he's not in the film studio, he's exploring sound in music. They are both freelance professors at various universities.

The video is rather long, but the timestamp really help to navigate it, and you don't have to watch it in a one go.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #546 on: 13/08/2025 17:58:50 »
 
Quote
the invisible dance of light,
????
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #547 on: 17/08/2025 14:56:56 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/08/2025 17:58:50
Quote
the invisible dance of light,
????
IMO, they referred to radio wave, which is invisible, but the structure of the source is easy to observe and verify. Then they try to extrapolate the same mechanism for shorter wavelength, including visible light.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #548 on: 17/08/2025 23:17:54 »
But surely light is not invisible, by definition?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #549 on: 25/08/2025 12:45:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/08/2025 23:17:54
But surely light is not invisible, by definition?
Definitions might shift over time. Initially, light was indeed limited to visible spectrum. Although some species have different frequency range of visible light. Some humans also have different spectrum range, although not by much. Infrared and ultraviolet light are invisible, but they are generally considered light since their discovery.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #550 on: 25/08/2025 12:55:45 »
The origin of a bizarre quantum phenomenon
Quote
In this journey towards Heisenberg's matrix formulation of quantum mechanics, here I present the origin of zero-point energy, one of the most bizarre predictions of quantum theory. Also known as vacuum energy, zero-point energy is a consequence of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; however, its origin is a wrong theory and a wrong plot.

Erratum: at 8:48 instead of "ln(1-p)^n" it should say "ln [p(1-p)^n]." This is just a typo, the rest of the calculation is correct. Thanks to ‪@Miguel_Noether‬, ‪@charlottedarroch‬ and ‪@martindimov3494‬ for reporting this.

[References]

∘ M. Planck, "Ueber eine Verbesserung der Wienschen Spectralgleichung," Verh. Dtsch. Phys. Ges. 2:202 (1900)
∘ M. Planck, "Eine neue Strahlungshypothese," Verh. Dtsch. Phys. Ges. 13:138 (1911)
∘ M. Planck, "?ber die Begr?ndung des Gesetzes der schwarzen Strahlung," Ann. Phys. 37 (4): 642 (1912)
∘ M. Planck, "Loi du Rayonnement Noir," Proceedings of the First Solvay Conference in Physics, p.93 (1912)
∘ H. S. Kragh and J. M. Overduin, "The Weight of the Vacuum," SpringerBriefs in Physics (2014)
∘ A. Einstein and O. Stern, "Einige Argumente f?r die Annahme einer molekularen Agitation beim absoluten Nullpunkt," Ann. Phys. 40 551 (1913)
∘ A. Eucken, "Die Molekularw?rme des Wasserstoffs bei tiefen Temperaturen," Verh. Dtsch. Phys. Ges., Nr. 4:141 (1912)
∘ P. Ehrenfest, "Bemerkung betreffs der spezifischen W?rme zweiatoniger Gase," Verh. Dtsch. Phys. Ges. 15, 451 (1913)
∘ D. M. Dennison, "The Rotation of Molecules," Phys. Rev. 28, 318 (1925)
∘ C. A . Gearhart, "Astonishing Successes and Bitter Disappointment: The Specific Heat of Hydrogen in Quantum Theory," Arch. Hist. Exact Sci.  64:113 (2010)
∘ R. S. Mulliken, "The Band Spectrum of Boron Monoxide," Nature 114, 349 (1924)
∘ R. S. Mulliken, "The Isotope Effect in Band Spectra, II: The Spectrum of Boron Monoxide," Phys. Rev. 25, 259 (1925)
∘ D. C. Cassidy, "Heisenberg's First Core Model of the Atom: The Formation of a Professional Style," Hist. Stud. Phys. Sci. 10:187 (1979)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #551 on: 26/08/2025 05:15:05 »
This is how Heisenberg created quantum mechanics - a step-by-step guide #SoME4
Quote
This is a step-by-step guide into Heisenberg's famous "Umdeutung paper" in which he created quantum mechanics in 1925. I include the experimental reason for the need of matrices, a deep dive into the four key ideas of Heisenberg's paper, and a detailed worked-out example showing how zero-point energy naturally appears in Heisenberg's theory thanks to an early draft of what years later would become Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. This video is my entry for #SoME4.


[References]

∘ W. Heisenberg, "?ber quantentheoretische Umdeutung kinematischer und mechanischer Beziehungen," Z. Phys. 33, 879 (1925)
∘ W. Ritz,  "On a new law of series spectra," Astrophys. J. 28, 237 (1908)
∘  R. S. Mulliken, "The Isotope Effect in Band Spectra, II: The Spectrum of Boron Monoxide," Phys. Rev. 25, 259 (1925)
∘  M. Born and P. Jordan, "Zur Quantenmechanik,? Z. Phys. 34, 858 (1925)


Some comments on the video.
Quote
Thanks Jorge, This is a gem. Over the 63 years of playing with QM I always went for Schroedinger because I never caught on to the wonderful deductions Heisenberg made in this paper. I've only found out about Ladenberg through your videos. You have done a wonderful job of making things clear and with pencil and paper one can figure this out.

Quote
I love these videos so much. Nothing illuminates the seemingly obscure ideas behind QM better than a proper deep dive with all the historical context.
« Last Edit: 26/08/2025 05:18:58 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #552 on: Today at 07:15:06 »
https://physicsworld.com/a/quantum-foundations-towards-a-coherent-view-of-physical-reality/
Quantum foundations: towards a coherent view of physical reality
03 Sep 2025
Part of our International Year of Quantum Science and Technology coverage

Ana Mar?a Cetto and Luis de la Pe?a say that as quantum science advances, it is crucial not to lose sight of its conceptual foundations

Quote
One hundred years after its birth, quantum mechanics remains one of the most powerful and successful theories in all of science. From quantum computing to precision sensors, its technological impact is undeniable ? and one reason why 2025 is being celebrated as the International Year of Quantum Science and Technology.

Yet as we celebrate these achievements, we should still reflect on what quantum mechanics reveals about the world itself. What, for example, does this formalism actually tell us about the nature of reality? Do quantum systems have definite properties before we measure them? Do our observations create reality, or merely reveal it?

These are not just abstract, philosophical questions. Having a clear understanding of what quantum theory is all about is essential to its long-term coherence and its capacity to integrate with the rest of physics. Unfortunately, there is no scientific consensus on these issues, which continue to provoke debate in the research community.

That uncertainty was underlined by a recent global survey of physicists about quantum foundational issues, conducted by Nature (643 1157). It revealed a persistent tension between ?realist? views, which seek an objective, visualizable account of quantum phenomena, and ?epistemic? views that regard the formalism as merely a tool for organizing our knowledge and predicting measurement outcomes.

Only 5% of the 1100 people who responded to the Nature survey expressed full confidence in the Copenhagen interpretation, which is still prevalent in textbooks and laboratories. Further divisions were revealed over whether the wavefunction is a physical entity, a mere calculation device, or a subjective reflection of belief. The lack of agreement on such a central feature underscores the theoretical fragility underlying quantum mechanics.

The willingness to explore alternatives reflects the intellectual vitality of the field but also underscores the inadequacy of current approaches

More broadly, 75% of respondents believe that quantum theory will eventually be replaced, at least partially, by a more complete framework. Encouragingly, 85% agree that attempts to interpret the theory in intuitive or physical terms are valuable. This willingness to explore alternatives reflects the intellectual vitality of the field but also underscores the inadequacy of current approaches.

Beyond interpretation
We believe that this interpretative proliferation stems from a deeper problem, which is that quantum mechanics lacks a well-defined physical foundation. It describes the statistical outcomes of measurements, but it does not explain the mechanisms behind them. The concept of causality has been largely abandoned in favour of operational prescriptions such that quantum theory works impressively in practice but remains conceptually opaque.

In our view, the way forward is not to multiply interpretations or continue debating them, but to pursue a deeper physical understanding of quantum phenomena. One promising path is stochastic electrodynamics (SED), a classical theory augmented by a random electromagnetic background field, the real vacuum or zero-point field discovered by Max Planck as early as 1911. This framework restores causality and locality by explaining quantum behaviour as the statistical response of particles to this omnipresent background field.

Over the years, several researchers from different lines of thought have contributed to SED. Since our early days with Trevor Marshall, Timothy Boyer and others, we have refined the theory to the point that it can now account for the emergence of features that are considered building blocks of quantum formalism, such as the basic commutator and Heisenberg inequalities.

Particles acquire wave-like properties not by intrinsic duality, but as a consequence of their interaction with the vacuum field. Quantum fluctuations, interference patterns and entanglement emerge from this interaction, without the need to resort to non-local influences or observer-dependent realities. The SED approach is not merely mechanical, but rather electrodynamic.

Coherent thoughts
We?re not claiming that SED is the final word. But it does offer a coherent picture of microphysical processes based on physical fields and forces. Importantly, it doesn?t abandon the quantum formalism but rather reframes it as an effective theory ? a statistical summary of deeper dynamics. Such a perspective enables us to maintain the successes of quantum mechanics while seeking to explain its origins.

For us, SED highlights that quantum phenomena can be reconciled with concepts central to the rest of physics, such as realism, causality and locality. It also shows that alternative approaches can yield testable predictions and provide new insights into long-standing puzzles. One phenomenon lying beyond current quantum formalism that we could now test, thanks to progress in experimental physics, is the predicted violation of Heisenberg?s inequalities over very short time periods.

As quantum science continues to advance, we must not lose sight of its conceptual foundations. Indeed, a coherent, causally grounded understanding of quantum mechanics is not a distraction from technological progress but a prerequisite for its full realization. By turning our attention once again to the foundations of the theory, we may finally complete the edifice that began to rise a century ago.

The centenary of quantum mechanics should be a time not just for celebration but critical reflection too.

Ana Mar?a Cetto and Luis de la Pe?a are at the Institute of Physics, National Autonomous University of Mexico, e-mail ana@fisica.unam.mx

Basically, this was what I thought when I created this thread.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #553 on: Today at 09:56:45 »
I'm firmly in the "best predictive model of reality" camp. No need for "observers" or  "duality", either of which imply sentient particles - yuk!
Anything else reeks of philosophy.
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