[alancalverd]

But fascism wasn't destroyed. It persists to this day.

And so does the imperative to destroy it. The second world war did at least slow its progress.

[jeffreyH]

But fascism wasn't destroyed. It persists to this day.

And so does the imperative to destroy it. The second world war did at least slow its progress.

So the solution is ... ?

[jeffreyH]

Then it is a sad day for mankind that a scientist relishes the thought of civilian death. This is why we are doomed.

Who said anything about relish? There are no silver medals in war, just "them or us" choices. I vote for us.

We are indeed doomed for as long as idiots give other idiots the power to order them about.

"The imperative to destroy fascism is absolute, and I am delighted that so many of my family and teachers were involved in every technical activity from the atom bomb via magnetic mines to actually bombing the crap out of German cities and throwing out the chemical toilet as an encore."

VERB
1‘he was relishing his moment of glory’

SYNONYMS
enjoy, delight in, love, like, adore, be pleased by, take pleasure in, rejoice in, appreciate, savour, revel in, luxuriate in, glory in.

[jeffreyH]

https://www.britannica.com/event/bombing-of-Dresden

"On the night of February 13, the British Bomber Command hit Dresden with an 800-bomber air raid, dropping some 2,700 tons of bombs, including large numbers of incendiaries. Aided by weather conditions, a firestorm developed, incinerating tens of thousands of people. The U.S. Eighth Air Force followed the next day with another 400 tons of bombs and carried out yet another raid by 210 bombers on February 15. It is thought that some 25,000–35,000 civilians died in Dresden in the air attacks, though some estimates are as high as 250,000, given the influx of undocumented refugees that had fled to Dresden from the Eastern Front. Most of the victims were women, children, and the elderly."

[jeffreyH]

And the Nazis fled, mainly unscathed, around the globe. Some escapees were later brought to justice but not all. So the sociopaths and psychopaths won the day.

[Bored chemist]

But fascism wasn't destroyed.

It';s like weeding the garden.
You have to keep doing it.

[alancalverd]

They won the day when they were given a democratic mandate to rule Germany. I don't think the Nuremberg Rallies were faked. It was civilians who collaborated to identify those sent to concentration camps and murdered. It was civilians that built the camps and drove the trains. 5,000,000 civilians joined the Hitler Jugend, presumably encouraged by 10,000,000 parents and as many grandparents. By obliterating cities and occupying Germany for 50 years, it is to be hoped that the Allies will have taught all civilians everywhere that such behavior is not tolerable.

The infection lingers in a few places, but there can be no shame attached to destroying its largest tumor. In surgery and radiotherapy there is an inevitable  "zone of regret" around the target, but it's better for the whole patient to kill a few healthy cells than to allow the cancer to regrow. 

[charles1948]

By obliterating cities and occupying Germany for 50 years, it is to be hoped that the Allies will have taught all civilians everywhere that such behavior is not tolerable.

Are you saying, all civilians everywhere, need to be "taught a lesson", by getting bombed for what their politicians do.

That can't be right, can it?

[alancalverd]

Not in general, but when said politicians enjoy massive public support to the extent of being able to raise an army, navy and air force in spite of a binding treaty, develop entirely new and indiscriminate ballistic (anti-civilian) weapons, invade every adjoining country, and support said military operation with food and machinery for 5 years, I think the "civilian" population must bear some of the blame, and in the case of a mechanised war, must expect to have their factories bombed. Bombing was more of a lottery than a science in the 1940s, so schools houses hospitals and all the other newsreel-fodder suffered too. The problem with civilian populations in wartime  is that until the good guys actually invade, dissenting minorities are going to get lynched by the majority or bombed by the enemy, so pretty well everyone becomes complicit if they want to eat.   

The object of education is to avoid the student having to find things out for himself. One would hope that future populations would consider the destruction of German Italian and Japanese cities as  a sufficient lesson not to be repeated.

[charles1948]

So, by your argument, if it turned out that the leaders of China had deliberately created the Covid-19 virus, and released it into the world.  In order to wreck Western countries such as the USA

Then the USA would be justified in launching a massive nuclear attack on China. In order to "obliterate" (to use your word) Chinese cities.  And so teach the Chinese people a lesson:

That they're to blame for allowing such "intolerable" politicians to get put into charge of China.

Can that be justifiable?   Doesn't it seem like punishing civilians for the sins of politicians?

[alancalverd]

Only if you believe that the entire Chinese population, or at least a working majority, deliberately set out to infect the rest of the world and themselves, and persistently supported those doing it.

Only UK civilians get punished for the stupidity of our politicians in encouraging criminals to run Stormont and egotists to collect a salary for trying to dissolve the Union in Edinburgh. The Axis civilians were punished for continuing to support the war their chosen idiots had promised them. 

I'm in favor of regular selective culling of politicians, but the indiscriminate murder of civilians requires a clear demonstration of majority complicity and hostility. 

We are nicely off topic but you have opened a significant point for discussion. Hostility towards the UK now comes from two sources: the Scottish National Party and various groups of religious perverts. How do we deploy nuclear weapons to protect ourselves, or to retaliate? In what way do these expensive toys deter attack on ourselves and our way of life?

[charles1948]

Alan, if you don't mind me making this observation, you sound rather too politically-minded to be a proper scientist.

Science should be neutral as regards politics.  Whereas as you come across as a bit of a "Lefty".  No offence intended!

But   -   are you secretly working for the Chinese Communist Party?

[jeffreyH]

Alan, if you don't mind me making this observation, you sound rather too politically-minded to be a proper scientist.

Science should be neutral as regards politics.  Whereas as you come across as a bit of a "Lefty".  No offence intended!

But   -   are you secretly working for the Chinese Communist Party?

Is that meant to be serious? Scientists aren't robots. They are human. Are you working for the far-right? You seem to be a bit of a "righty".

[charles1948]

Thanks Jeffrey, I wasn't meaning to be offensive, but most scientists on here do seem to exhibit somewhat Left-Wing tendencies, when they express their views, in their posts.

Apart from one obvious, and admirable exception.  Who doesn't need to be named.

[Bored chemist]

most scientists on here do seem to exhibit somewhat Left-Wing tendencies

For two reasons;
scientists are often paid by governments and also
reality has a well known Left wing bias.

The ability to evaluate data means that , for example, scientists are less likely to have ever believed in the "trickle down theory" of economics, or to swallow populist ideas like "Immigrants are responsible for you not getting a job".

[alancalverd]

I wasn't meaning to be offensive,

but you managed, without really trying. Do not make the elementary mistake of telling me what I think.

"Gadget" is a good if slightly dated thriller by Nicholas Freeling. The villain wants to build a small atomic bomb, so needs to recruit a scientist. The Daily Telegraph generally carries a lot of engineering ads but he is advised to advertise in the Guardian if he wants a leftie chemist. Superficial, but well observed. I don't read newspapers.

Science is indeed neutral - it is an iterative process that generally leads to understanding. What you do with that understanding is another matter.

Career politicians stink. There are a few MPs who previously held proper jobs and wish to serve the public, but sadly the majority only want to serve themselves. The Chinese communist party reeks of lies and corruption as much as the Tory front bench, but has the advantage of absolute power.

[Bored chemist]

The Chinese communist party reeks of lies

The biggest lie is that they are communist.

[Zer0]

Silent Blue Skies, Roar with Thunder, of Iron Birds with Static Wings.



Fragile ants run, Hither & Tither, as Sirens Scream & the Church bells Rings.



Few Vaporised & others buried Alive, fallen Angels weep while the Demons Sings.



Why oh Why! Do peasants pay the price, of Fanatic Wars, of Fascist Kings!



P.S. - ✌️