[neilep (OP)]

Dear Will-ologists,


This morning 3am, I was listening to Talk Heathen podcast and the topic of free-will  and determinism came up.


I can't decide, I'd like to think that Free-Will does exist else what's the point ?




I asked wifey about Free-Will and she just said it was a good film !!! I did not pursue it !!


 






whajafink ?

[Halc]

This is a philosophical topic best posted

This morning 3am, I was listening to Talk Heathen podcast and the topic of free-will  and determinism came up.
I can't decide, I'd like to think that Free-Will does exist else what's the point ?

It very much depends on your definition of free will.
I might define it as my actions being due to my own will and not that of another (possession by demon for instance).
Another might define it quite the opposite: that my actions are due to outside (supernatural) will and are not from natural physics.
A third one relates to determinism: One's future is not written in stone from the very beginning, which would contradict determinism which is that two systems in identical state must evolve identically. To me this has little to do with free will since both identical people would will the same choices and thus their will is not being thwarted by determinism, merely being implemented by it.

I asked wifey about Free-Will

If you have a wifey, you probably don't have free will.

[neilep (OP)]

Thanks Halcy,


I must be having a "moment" because I thought we had a Philosophy thread to post in.(I couldn't find it !!)........ If we do, please amend accordingly.


I guess my definition of free will is my making choices based on my own way of making them. Completely independent of any subconscious , back-of-house programming that I do not have control of.


I DO have a wifey, bye bye free will !!

[Halc]

I guess my definition of free will is my making choices based on my own way of making them.

And not the wifey's way, yea.

Completely independent of any subconscious

The subconscious probably makes over 98% of all decisions. The conscious part simply has neither the speed nor the capacity to handle that workload. I would hardly classify such decisions as being done without free will.

back-of-house programming that I do not have control of.

So you don't consider you subconscious to be part of this 'I' that you feel is in control?  I have news: it isn't. It serves an advisory role, and might be the best at that role compared to any other species (OK, your species is admittedly in question), but I assure you it isn't in control. When the two make different decisions, the one in charge most often wins. I've spent quite some time (many years) exploring this, taking notice of when such conflicts occurs.
They hold different beliefs as well, and the conscious part is completely willing to believe all the nonsense that the subconscious whispers to it.

[evan_au]

This discussion is often debated in the context of a "Block Universe" hypothesis: If you could imagine someone outside our spacetime, they would be able to see the:
- The past and future trajectory of the Earth around the Sun
- Your past and future trajectory on the Earth (do I go to Edinburgh or Paris for my vacation?)

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time)

At the other extreme, the "Many Worlds" hypothesis suggests that maybe one version of you goes to Edinburgh while another version of you goes to Paris.

What makes these pure philosophy is that they assume things that are untesteable by us:
- We are locked inside our space time, so we can't see a block universe
- We are locked inside one world, and we cannot see many worlds.

[Eternal Student]

Hi everyone.

  For whatever it's worth, it seems Halc is covering the topic adequately.
Many people would suggest that "Free Will" does exist   - but it may not be what you thought it was.

I guess my definition of free will is my making choices based on my own way of making them. Completely independent of any subconscious , back-of-house programming that I do not have control of.

    You already have some direct experience of this.   You cannot keep your eyes open when an object (like someones finger) is coming toward your eyes.  There's an autonomic response that will close your eyelids.
    So you can "choose" to keep your eyes open but it doesn't matter, you can't make it happen.  There is some "back-of-house programming" that will take over.
    However, I shouldn't worry about it.   You can "choose" that tomorrow will be a nice sunny day but you can't make that happen either.  We don't assume that the weather was anything we should have had some control over.  Our inability to choose the weather does not cause us to think we don't have free will.    So,  the autonomic closing of your eyelids and 99% of everything your body does can easily be put in the same category.
    So, we can see that "Free Will" already means less than we might have hoped for.  There isn't much that we actually have conscious control over.

Best Wishes.

Late editing:   Hi evan_au,     if you had got your post up earlier I would have included you in my reply.  Anyway, it seems sensible.

[Zer0]

I read this in some neuroscience article waay back.

Some researchers were tryin to map, record n catch n time signals within the brain.

It was sumthin to do with alpha, gamma n such spikes.

Well, all i remember...

They timed signals accordingly.
1) When a Decision is Made.(mind)
2) When it is Acted upon.(body)

Those fellas found body signals & movement coming in first, and the decision signal later.

They concluded, Action superseded Decision.

Weird Right!

Ps - i might have read it wrong, or misunderstood or all logic must have been lost in translation & time lapse.
Sorry.
✌️

[Halc]

They timed signals accordingly.
1) When a Decision is Made.(mind)
2) When it is Acted upon.(body)

Those fellas found body signals & movement coming in first, and the decision signal later.

They concluded, Action superseded Decision.

If this is actually what they reported, then it sounds like the signal they're labelling the 'decision signal' is actually some kind of reaction and not the making of the decision at all. They need to move their probe to the actual place where the decision is made, or make it sensitive to whatever changes when you go from undecided to decided.

[Halc]

This is a reposting of my reply to AC's Free Will thread/question,
which seems to have disappeared, into a puff, of smoke. How's that possible?

My apologies. It got carried along in the current of all of puppypower's off-topic posts. It was on-topic and should not have been moved with the others.
I will reattach it to neilep's topic (Who is AC??) since it references the comments there.