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  4. Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
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Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?

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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« on: 23/09/2022 13:21:45 »
Yes. He does not write down the extra number to the infinite'th digit. To remedy this one has to write down the list together with the n'th digit:

 1 2 3 4 ... n n+1
.2 3 4 5 ... 6 7
.3 4 5 6 ... 7 8
...
....             9 1

and then specify that when you write down the extra number to (if you change the n'th digit by one) to also change the n+1'th digit by one. Then, by induction you can claim to have written down the number not on the list.
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #1 on: 23/09/2022 14:09:13 »
There's just one problem with this: because n can change, you do not know the digit under the n'th index so you can't change the n'th or (n+1)'th digit. To remedy this we must write down the list as follows:

 1 2 3 4 ... n (n+1)
.1 2 3 4 ... p a
.2 3 4 5 ...
....
.v w x ...   c
.q r s t ...  u b

and write down the number not on the list as:

.2 4     ... c+1 b+1

Then the reasoning would be: since at least one digit in the list must be unique at it's place, the number written down is indeed a number not on the list - he leaves out this reasoning.
« Last Edit: 23/09/2022 14:30:59 by talanum1 »
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #2 on: 23/09/2022 14:46:46 »
Just one problem with this: it supposes there is a largest number (n+1), and there isn't.

So we cannot write down a number not on the list. So does it exist even if we cant write it down? Root 2 is writable as d21848cdd835abcb491be1f151e9b6c6.gif.
« Last Edit: 23/09/2022 14:54:48 by talanum1 »
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #3 on: 23/09/2022 15:03:47 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 23/09/2022 14:46:46
Root 2 is writable as d21848cdd835abcb491be1f151e9b6c6.gif.
The largest number can be written as (n+1). So?
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #4 on: 23/09/2022 15:06:44 »
We can write down the number: call the list L and the operation of adding 1 to the digits as On. Then the number not on the list is:

limn -> ∞ On(L).
« Last Edit: 23/09/2022 15:26:40 by talanum1 »
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #5 on: 23/09/2022 15:10:46 »
Point is: writing the largest number as (n+1) is wrong: there is no largest number, otherwise we can construct n+2 etc.
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #6 on: 23/09/2022 17:24:26 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 23/09/2022 15:10:46
Point is: writing the largest number as (n+1) is wrong: there is no largest number, otherwise we can construct n+2 etc.
No, you just say n+2 is the new n+1 and the old n+1 is now n
Don’t understand your problem,
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #7 on: 24/09/2022 09:53:48 »
You can't claim n + 1 = n + 2. This is not computer science. This just confirms the fact that there is no largest number.

Technically we cannot write down ∞, we may just write limn-> ∞ n. Or write ∞ as shorthand for this.
« Last Edit: 24/09/2022 10:08:58 by talanum1 »
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #8 on: 24/09/2022 10:05:23 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 24/09/2022 09:53:48
You can't claim n + 1 = n + 2. This is not computer science.
I’m not claiming that. I’m saying you transpose n+2 becomes the new n+1
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #9 on: 24/09/2022 10:14:11 »
You can do such a operation in mind or on computer, but it is not mathematically correct.

Your saying n+2 = O(n+1). I'm saying then O(n+1) = n+1+1 > n+1
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #10 on: 24/09/2022 13:43:39 »
Quote from: talanum1 on 24/09/2022 10:14:11
Your saying n+2 = O(n+1).
no I’m not
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Offline talanum1 (OP)

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #11 on: 07/10/2022 17:49:20 »
The prevailing thought is that you can reach an infinite amount of time. This is false: 13.7 billion years from now infinite time would be just as far away as it is today.
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Offline pzkpfw

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Re: Is There a Problem With Cantor's Diagonal Proof?
« Reply #12 on: 07/10/2022 20:09:58 »
That's not an issue in math.

I can write in moments the symbol ∞ to represent all of infinity.

I can write 0.9... = 1; where the "..." represents infinite 9 digits, not having to worry that I'd never be able to write them all down, even in infinite time.
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