[MikeS]

time is not a tool we invented.
It can't be, if you ask me humans are incapable of coming up with new idea's, we work on copying stuff and putting it in different oders to come up with new idea's. It will always be an invluence from outside that will inspire humans to come up with truely new concepts.

If not humans who else?

it's the same with time, time is a thing too hard for us to understand completely just yet. however, it's a phenomenon that can be partially observed by us and we have done so and learned from it.

for now time is simply a point in time to which you reference, like the beginning of the universe. however before the big bang occured there were forces in effect too if you ask me. We simply dont understand that part of time since it's so different from what we can see now.

Before the big bang doesn't really have a great deal of meaning if you use accepted definitions

taking this to your collision's it means you will always need to reference to time if you want us to know exactly what you mean, because to do so we need to know the "when" factor.

  2+2=4

It wasn't invented.  It just is. Humans just gave it a name.

True, but that is a limitation of thought and definitions.  If time was created at the creation of the universe then 'before' has no meaning.  But the universe was created from some creation event so something occurred before the creation of time.

I don't see the connection?

If, as I believe, energy in the form of photons travel either at infinite speed but without direction in time or, they travel outside of time (take your pick) then this would allow the big bang to happen but it happened before the creation of time or more correctly before 'time' was given an arrow and meaning.

[imatfaal]

Mike

1.  Moved side topic on the photon and time to New Theories

2. 

If you read Letoll's post it is clearly imply that something exterior etc came up with the idea

We don't know what happened - but talking about "before time" does not have a lot of meaning.  Something that cannot be measured, observed or even described mathematically or literally is beyond serious scientific enquiry - it is the realm of hypotheses not theories

Again - Letoll's comment was that we always need to reference time to make a valid statement with meaning - I believe I made a valid statement that has no reference to time

[MikeS]

Mike

1.  Moved side topic on the photon and time to New Theories

2. 

If you read Letoll's post it is clearly imply that something exterior etc came up with the idea

We don't know what happened - but talking about "before time" does not have a lot of meaning.  Something that cannot be measured, observed or even described mathematically or literally is beyond serious scientific enquiry - it is the realm of hypotheses not theories

Again - Letoll's comment was that we always need to reference time to make a valid statement with meaning - I believe I made a valid statement that has no reference to time

I agree, I was answering your point that "If not humans who else?  We didn't invent time we only gave it a name.

I agree but clearly something did happen possibly before the creation of 'time' to create the universe.

That's taking a clip of what he actually said and taking it out of context.

[dropoutscience]

I dont beleive in time. I think humans (thats us guys) created time and turned a simple matter of measuring change into something greater. if you look at the definition it says things like a period of change. there is no time only change. like people change from a baby to an adult; the train changed its position from there to here. time measures the changes in between, and because the change is similar in like objects, but dfferent(because gravity can create friction and slow down change) we experience "time dialation". we created time  like slow and fast to explain the differences in change, and there is no flow or loop or arrow; there is only change.

[dropoutscience]

forgot to add if you have knowledge you think can prove (not a thought exercise because those are just theories) that time exist then let me know. I am open minded.

[MikeS]

dropoutscience

"That simple matter of measuring change" is what we call time.

Time exists and it has an arrow.  The two main manifestations of the arrow are gravity and entropy.  Actually gravity is entropy.  It is written large in the laws of nature.

As regards proof
Without time you could not have written your post.

[dropoutscience]

MikeS I am sorry it took me so long to respond, but that is not proof of time that is proof of change. as in, I changed what was on the page in what part of change we call winter, on a day we humans call 31/01/2012. we measure change called it time then we said time is its own entity. as I said; gravity slows down particles, slowing change not time. it was a good response to my post, but it is not proof. I know that time is a concept bred into us since childhood and even as I say I dont believe in time it is hard to believe that it doesnt; and so if it is real than it cannot be an arrow because that would mean one timeline, one set of actions a person can make; so it would be more like a web that reaches out infinitely. I am also sorry if you thought, or, think I am being difficult, or stuck up, or plainly an ass. reply if you wish to continue.

[simplified]

forgot to add if you have knowledge you think can prove (not a thought exercise because those are just theories) that time exist then let me know. I am open minded.

We can not forget time in formulae.