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  4. Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?

Poll

Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?

No. They are already perfect. Any change will only make them worse.
4 (80%)
No. They have some known problems, but there is no possible solution.
0 (0%)
Yes. They have some known problems, and there are some possible solutions.
0 (0%)
Yes. They have some known problems, and one solution can solve them all.
1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

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Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1320 on: 26/08/2025 13:40:54 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2025 13:04:30

Quote
Current SI system makes them dimensionally equivalent.
Nothing to do with SI, which simply names the quantities. Energy and torque are indeed dimensionally equivalent but because they are different entities (energy is a scalar, torque is a vector) , SI gives them different names and different units.

SI is really nothing more than a universal multilingual dictionary. You might be less confused if you used the German word for torque: Drehkraft.


It happens because SI declared radian is dimensionless, which makes it possible to appear and disappear from equations without consequences.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1321 on: 26/08/2025 13:45:24 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2025 13:04:30

Quote
The formula v = ω . r  implies  r = v / ω   
Numerically, yes. Logically, no.
Remember the convention:  effect = f(cause).
when dealing with torque, r is not an effect
if F = m . a, then a = F / m
Would you say that the last formula above is not logically correct?

Here's another example.
V = I . R implies that I = V / R
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1322 on: 26/08/2025 13:54:54 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/08/2025 13:04:30

Quote
You only need to determine the behavior of rotational axis while being influenced by force.
which you have still failed to do.

You can start with simple examples. Someone else has made a video about elliptical orbit, so I don't have to.


How Newton deduced gravity obeys inverse square law | Hidden gems #2

Quote
Both Newtonian gravity and Hooke's law admit elliptical orbits in 3D (or 2D, same thing since all solutions are planar), but is it a coincidence? Newton said no, but this connection was only discovered accidentally when he was trying to deduce why gravity obeys inverse square law from astronomical observations at the time. In fact, if you know the history between Newton and Hooke, you will find the close connection between these two forces ironic!

This channel is meant to showcase interesting but underrated maths (and physics) topics and approaches, either with completely novel topics, or a well-known topic with a novel approach. If the novel approach resonates better with you, great! But the videos have never meant to be pedagogical - in fact, please please PLEASE do NOT use YouTube videos to learn a subject.

I'm making a video about elliptical trajectory with constant tangential speed. But it takes a significant amount of my time, which is currently limited by 8 to 5 job. So, please be patient.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1323 on: 26/08/2025 23:40:06 »
Quote
Is it still a Newton meter?
No. We measure energy in joules. |Newton|.|meter| (scalar, energy) is not the same as newton x meter (vector, torque), so 1 |Newton|.|meter|  is called a joule.

Quote
What if the angle between force and displacement is 45 degrees?
The product of the force component in the direction of movement x distance moved in that direction is energy, measured in joules. The product of force x distance perpendicular to the line of action of the force is torque, measured in newton meters.
« Last Edit: 26/08/2025 23:52:19 by alancalverd »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1324 on: 26/08/2025 23:46:12 »
Quote
if F = m . a, then a = F / m
Would you say that the last formula above is not logically correct?
No, the second formula is conventionally correct: acceleration is the result (effect) of applying a force to a mass (cause). That was Newton's logical deduction from observation. ("Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by a force....")

Quote
Here's another example.
V = I . R implies that I = V / R
Again, you have got the logic backwards. A current (effect) flows when you apply a potential across a conductor (cause).  A conductor does not spontaneously generate a potential difference between its ends.
« Last Edit: 26/08/2025 23:56:37 by alancalverd »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1325 on: 27/08/2025 00:02:46 »
Quote
Both Newtonian gravity and Hooke's law admit elliptical orbits in 3D (or 2D, same thing since all solutions are planar), but is it a coincidence?


Newton: F α 1/r2

Hooke; F α r

AFAIK, r ≠ 1/r2 unless r = 1, which is clearly not the case for an ellipse!

Newton: F α m

Hooke: F is independent of m
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1326 on: 28/08/2025 09:15:43 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/08/2025 23:46:12
Quote
if F = m . a, then a = F / m
Would you say that the last formula above is not logically correct?
No, the second formula is conventionally correct: acceleration is the result (effect) of applying a force to a mass (cause). That was Newton's logical deduction from observation. ("Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by a force....")

Quote
Here's another example.
V = I . R implies that I = V / R
Again, you have got the logic backwards. A current (effect) flows when you apply a potential across a conductor (cause).  A conductor does not spontaneously generate a potential difference between its ends.
Here's the equivalent in rotating systems.
"Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform rotation unless acted upon by a torque...."
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1327 on: 28/08/2025 22:22:55 »
True. But not every torque produces rotation.

Here's another example of two quantities being dimensionally equivalent but  entirely unrelated:

The amount of coal burned to keep a steam locomotive running is measured in pounds per mile (ML-1).

The weight of nylon thread woven into a parachute is measured in pounds per mile (ML-1) 

Both very important quantities in their own context but with no logical connection..
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1328 on: 31/08/2025 14:37:39 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/08/2025 22:22:55
True. But not every torque produces rotation.

Here's another example of two quantities being dimensionally equivalent but  entirely unrelated:

The amount of coal burned to keep a steam locomotive running is measured in pounds per mile (ML-1).

The weight of nylon thread woven into a parachute is measured in pounds per mile (ML-1) 

Both very important quantities in their own context but with no logical connection..
If a torque doesn't produce angular acceleration, it must have been counterbalanced by other torque(s). There's no other way to explain it.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we improve the standard units of rotational quantities?
« Reply #1329 on: 31/08/2025 15:03:39 »
Indeed. And when you release the brake, the car/bucket/whatever accelerates. Which is why you need  a quantity called torque which has nothing to do with displacement, because cars, wells, mechanical stopwatches.....are not psychic! The accelerating torque must have been present whilst the brake was on and nothing moved.
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