[William McC (OP)]

http://www.rockwelder.com/health/gas.pdf

If you read carefully you will notice that they say the gas as in soda water. Soda water gas is somewhat immediately asphyxiating because it is mixed with water and is a rather powerful acid, when applied to wetted skin. That is why it can burn your nose and cause kids to gage or pull away from the gas above the soda.

Pure carbon dioxide is not immediately asphyxiating, I have used it in massive quantity to freeze leaking pipes and it is actually rather nice to breath, even when mixed with water vapor, from a tank of liquid carbon dioxide. However CO2 that is allowed to mix with water over time forms the substance carbonic acid. This substance when released from lake beds has killed whole villages of people.

I have noted that carbon dioxide that is put into and stored in cylinders as a gas, but was originally from very pure carbon dioxide is very immediately asphyxiating. So the oxygen it picks up from the cylinder walls makes it rather unpleasant to breath. As I mentioned though the pure CO2 from tanks of the liquid CO2 are rather pleasant to breath, for as much as 10 minutes time by actual experience.

I believe it is the impurities and lack of understanding of carbon dioxide in its many forms both pre and post storage as a gas that has caused it to fall out of favor.

However it appears at one time it was very useful for reviving those that we would have really called dead today. Carbonic acid is the substance that causes the lungs to involuntarily pump air into and out of the lung.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[Bored chemist]

Odd as it may seem the body isn't good at detecting a lack of oxygen in the blood.
What it normally relies on to maintain the right breathing rate is the presence of acid. In normal circumstances the only acid that the body produces lots of is carbonic acid. There's a pH sensor in the brain that registers this pH change and raises the breathing rate.
If there's too much acid,  the body assumes it's too much CO2 and increases the breathing rate to flush it out.
So, CO2 increases the breathing rate, and that's the "basis" for using it in resuscitation.

Subsequent work has found that the  CO2 doesn't help so now they just give oxygen.
http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(38)90525-3/abstract
(How old is that book you cited?)

High concentration sof CO2 are (pratically) immediately asphyxiating.
You only get through a few breaths without oxygen before you faint.

" However CO2 that is allowed to mix with water over time "
That reaction is already fairly fast and your lungs are well stocked with an enzyme (carbonic anhydrase) that speeds the reaction up enormously.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22599/
That's how you can manage to breathe out CO2.

However, since the CO2 has to dissolve in the blood, get carried round to the brain and affect  a pH sensor there, it's effect on the lungs (usually a bit of coughing) has little to do with respiration or resuscitation.


"So the oxygen it picks up from the cylinder walls "
The walls of the tank are made of steel.
There's little or no oxygen there (there certainly shouldn't be because they don't want the metal to be corroded.)

As you say in the title- it's an "Old Method".
it was found not to work
It has been abandoned.

[William McC (OP)]

Odd as it may seem the body isn't good at detecting a lack of oxygen in the blood.
What it normally relies on to maintain the right breathing rate is the presence of acid. In normal circumstances the only acid that the body produces lots of is carbonic acid. There's a pH sensor in the brain that registers this pH change and raises the breathing rate.
If there's too much acid,  the body assumes it's too much CO2 and increases the breathing rate to flush it out.
So, CO2 increases the breathing rate, and that's the "basis" for using it in resuscitation.

Subsequent work has found that the  CO2 doesn't help so now they just give oxygen.
http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(38)90525-3/abstract
(How old is that book you cited?)

High concentration sof CO2 are (pratically) immediately asphyxiating.
You only get through a few breaths without oxygen before you faint.

" However CO2 that is allowed to mix with water over time "
That reaction is already fairly fast and your lungs are well stocked with an enzyme (carbonic anhydrase) that speeds the reaction up enormously.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22599/
That's how you can manage to breathe out CO2.

However, since the CO2 has to dissolve in the blood, get carried round to the brain and affect  a pH sensor there, it's effect on the lungs (usually a bit of coughing) has little to do with respiration or resuscitation.


"So the oxygen it picks up from the cylinder walls "
The walls of the tank are made of steel.
There's little or no oxygen there (there certainly shouldn't be because they don't want the metal to be corroded.)

As you say in the title- it's an "Old Method".
it was found not to work
It has been abandoned.

I have found that modern chemists, modern engineers are not aware that pure CO2 is not immediately asphyxiating. By actual personal testing I can assure you that liquid CO2 will not asphyxiate you, at least not in ten minutes. Now scientific grade CO2 gas is asphyxiating. So is any CO2 from a gas cylinder.

I have been in a confined area with the liquid CO2 coming out in quantity to freeze the cylinder. In quantity that the over pressure of the gas was pushing against my face, as I tried to freeze a leaking liquid pipe in a confined space. I have experienced CO2 gas from a gas cylinder and it approaches levels of asphyxiation of toxic gases. However so does nitrogen from a gas cylinder. Liquid nitrogen boiling off is very pleasant to breath for several minutes at least.

I used to work in a gas filling house, and I got to experience, all of the above. As well as in the field using all of the above. When I use nitrogen to purge AC refrigeration lines, I know that the nitrogen from the gas cylinder is asphyxiating, it is almost caustic in nature. Very hard to breath. Yet I know nitrogen gas boiling off right from pure liquid nitrogen is very pleasant, like a magical spring day.

What has concerned me more than anything is that supposed experts over the years deny the reality. Other individuals that actually work with the stuff will not bother to even explain it again. They tried no one cared or listened, so they know what they know and I know what I know and the rest read about God knows what?

Sincerely,

William McCormick

[William McC (OP)]

Pure CO2 from liquid CO2 will not cause your lungs to autonomously breath. Gas from soda water will cause your lungs to breath with vigor.


Sincerely,

William McCormick.

[William McC (OP)]

Odd as it may seem the body isn't good at detecting a lack of oxygen in the blood.
What it normally relies on to maintain the right breathing rate is the presence of acid. In normal circumstances the only acid that the body produces lots of is carbonic acid. There's a pH sensor in the brain that registers this pH change and raises the breathing rate.
If there's too much acid,  the body assumes it's too much CO2 and increases the breathing rate to flush it out.
So, CO2 increases the breathing rate, and that's the "basis" for using it in resuscitation.

Subsequent work has found that the  CO2 doesn't help so now they just give oxygen.
http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(38)90525-3/abstract
(How old is that book you cited?)

High concentration sof CO2 are (pratically) immediately asphyxiating.
You only get through a few breaths without oxygen before you faint.

" However CO2 that is allowed to mix with water over time "
That reaction is already fairly fast and your lungs are well stocked with an enzyme (carbonic anhydrase) that speeds the reaction up enormously.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22599/
That's how you can manage to breathe out CO2.

However, since the CO2 has to dissolve in the blood, get carried round to the brain and affect  a pH sensor there, it's effect on the lungs (usually a bit of coughing) has little to do with respiration or resuscitation.


"So the oxygen it picks up from the cylinder walls "
The walls of the tank are made of steel.
There's little or no oxygen there (there certainly shouldn't be because they don't want the metal to be corroded.)

As you say in the title- it's an "Old Method".
it was found not to work
It has been abandoned.

The surface of all steel is an oxide not pure steel. In that oxide you will also find hydrogen.

Almost all metals instantly oxidize if exposed to air if they did not they would literally keep reacting to their destruction. If you put pure CO2 in a steel cylinder, that was almost totally void of oxygen and it could be done, the surface of the steel would become a rough strange color surface, that does not look like steel. The CO2 would react with the steel creating other compounds. It would become a little chemical factory in there. 

That is why in industry if you want pure gases you buy the liquid form. There was a chemist one day telling me he uses the best scientific grade gases, and eventually he realized that they are not scientific grade gases. Some gas houses will tell you exactly what I am saying to you, if you are interested in the truth. Or they will sell you a tank of death if that is what you wish. 

When they were applying for grants for particle accelerators years ago they claimed that they were going to evacuate all the gases from the chamber. When in fact that will not happen ever, if the walls are steel or stainless steel.

Sincerely,

William McCormick.

[William McC (OP)]

http://www.materialinterface.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Stainless-steel-review-Matl-Interface.pdf

I do not agree with all their new fangled terminology however the part about the surface being oxygen and carbon I concur with.

Most young people from having seen steel and stainless all their life consider it a pretty docile substance, that does not react violently. In truth it reacts so violently that it is almost safe. It oxidizes so quickly that it stops further oxidation and violent reactions.

However over time in an enclosed space with almost any gas you get reaction or contamination.

A lot of aero space welders know this and only use liquified argon and or helium to weld with, the difference in quality is often huge. Even in high quality scientific grade gas, I can detect odors as the tank pressure drops, odors that should not be there. Yet the argon from liquid does not ever produce those odors. 



Sincerely,

William McCormick

[Bored chemist]

"I have found that modern chemists, modern engineers are not aware that pure CO2 is not immediately asphyxiating."
I am glad you have found that modern science are not aware of things that are not true. Obviously, anything that hasn't got enough oxygen in it is asphyxiating.

Please stop posting dangerous nonsense like this
"By actual personal testing I can assure you that liquid CO2 will not asphyxiate you, at least not in ten minutes. Now scientific grade CO2 gas is asphyxiating. So is any CO2 from a gas cylinder. "

" Now scientific grade CO2 gas is asphyxiating. So is any CO2 from a gas cylinder. "
I doubt that you will find anyone supplying CO2 in a gas cylinder. The cylinders generally contain the liquid under pressure.
Did you realise that?

Again this
" Liquid nitrogen boiling off is very pleasant to breath for several minutes at least. "
is dangerous and nonsensical.
Without oxygen you would be unconscious in less than a minute.
And the boil-off from LN is nearly 200 degrees below freezing- as well as very dry. Those two factors make it dangerous to breathe.

How can you seriously claim that breathing something that would freeze your lungs almost instantly is a good thing?


Yous ay "Pure CO2 from liquid CO2 will not cause your lungs to autonomously breath. Gas from soda water will cause your lungs to breath with vigor. "
How come you don't realise that, since the surface of your lungs is wet, as soon as you breathe the stuff in the CO2 is "soda water"?

" I know that the nitrogen from the gas cylinder is asphyxiating, it is almost caustic in nature. Very hard to breath. Yet I know nitrogen gas boiling off right from pure liquid nitrogen is very pleasant, like a magical spring day. "

In the real world, nitrogen is "made" by distilling liquid air.
So the gas in a cylinder is " gas boiling off right from pure liquid nitrogen "
They are the same thing.

"That is why in industry if you want pure gases you buy the liquid form."
If I put  a given weight of a material in a given size of cyling=der at a given temperature then whetehr it is a liquid or not depends on teh laws of physics.
I cant "choose" to buy one or the other.
You misunderstood that about CO2 earlier.

I can, of course, buy some gases as liquids at very low temperatures.
However if I want ultra high purity helium or oxygen (and I have used lots of both since I work in analytical chemistry- where that's important- rather than refrigeration where it generally isn't ) I buy them as gases in cylinders.
(This ort of thing)
https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/hydrogen-ultra-high-purity-grade-compressed

With nitrogen, it's a toss up- the initial costs are higher for buying it as a liquid but the ongoing costs are lower.
It's an economics decision. but I'm still buying nitrogen  gas with sub ppm levels of impurities.

"Some gas houses will tell you exactly what I am saying to you, "
Prove it.

[jeffreyH]

I have locked this thread since it includes dangerous advice. It may even b removed entirely.