[Bored chemist]

When I went round Bradwell in the late 70s they had two clocks on the wall in the control room, one running of the mains, and a battery one adjusted to the Greenwich time signal. They just adjusted the frequency to keep the clocks reading the same time.

If it works, it works.
Is that what they mean by an "atomic clock"?

[evan_au]

Australia had one of the largest grid battery installations in the world, when it was built in 2017.

Originally, it was operated near full charge, ready to provide emergency power to prop up the grid until more traditional generators could come online.

More recently, the energy market operator has mandated that it should operate between 30% and 70% capacity, effectively requiring that it should be ready to step in for both underfrequency (not enough generating capacity) and overfrequency (too much generating capacity) events.
See: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/huge-tesla-battery-in-south-australia-primed-for-big-upgrade-20191119-p53byo.html

With these very fast response times becoming available (as little as one AC cycle), the energy market operator is also planning to change from setting prices every 30 minutes, to setting prices every 5 minutes. One step in a trend that will probably continue for some time...

[vhfpmr]

See: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/huge-tesla-battery-in-south-australia-primed-for-big-upgrade-20191119-p53byo.html

What's the environmental impact of that much lithium? You'd need 17 of those to match the power of Dinorwic, and 70 of them to match the energy.

[Bored chemist]

What's the environmental impact of Dinorwig?
I guess it depends on how many abandoned quarries you have.

In principle, other battery technology is available.
For a project like this where neither space nor mass matter much, lithium is an odd choice.
Tesla has put a stack of effort into developing good lithium batteries, and they want to showcase them. That's understandable.

It might make more sense to use something like vanadium batteries for this sort of application.

[Petrochemicals]

See: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/huge-tesla-battery-in-south-australia-primed-for-big-upgrade-20191119-p53byo.html

What's the environmental impact of that much lithium? You'd need 17 of those to match the power of Dinorwic, and 70 of them to match the energy.

All these wind turbines set at sea, hundreds of metres tall, they could be employed as demand backups or storage devices themselves. Missed the boat now, no storage and the turbine room is at the top.

[Bored chemist]

All these wind turbines set at sea, hundreds of metres tall, they could be employed as demand backups or storage devices themselves.

How?

[evan_au]

Dinorwic

For those who have never heard of Dinorwic (like me), it appears to be a pumped-hydro storage system in Wales, UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

Everyone agrees that pumped hydro systems are a good idea, and in fact Australia is investing to extend the Snowy Mountains hydro scheme, built in the 1960s. But Snow is rare in Australia, and our Mountains would rate as hills in other parts of the world.

South Australia (which is supported by the grid-scale battery) is mostly a flat desert, so pumped storage with water is not much of an option.

There have been some more radical suggestions about pumped-storage using air in underground caverns which might be more suitable for South Australia. There would be a massive plug of rock to keep the pressure constant. This rock would rise and fall like the old-style town-gas storage facilities. You need low-porosity rock - which might be difficult to find in South Australia, which is built on a lot of limestone.
See: https://heindl-energy.com/

vanadium batteries

Vanadium flow batteries have been investigated for some time. Vanadium is not one of the more common elements (and lithium is rather rare).
There have been some research investigation into cheaper alternatives to vanadium, like Zinc Iodide (and lithium compounds...).
I have seen some attempts at commercialization of flow batteries in China.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

[Bored chemist]

Vanadium is not one of the more common elements (and lithium is rather rare).
There have been some research investigation into cheaper alternatives to vanadium, like Zinc Iodide

We have about three times as much vanadium as zinc and roughly a thousand times more vanadium than iodine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust

[BenCracks]

 

[evan_au]

We have about three times as much vanadium as zinc

There is more to it than concentration in the Earth's crust - there are issues around whether it is spread out evenly, or concentrated into economic ore bodies. And other issues around supply and demand.

Looking up prices for Vanadium, it is currently quoted as $US5 to $6 per pound - as a pentoxide (ie mostly oxygen).
- Zinc metal is currently around $US2000 per ton (apparently that is around $1/lb, but I'm confused by the North American units...).
- The units quoted say a lot about supply and demand; at present, vanadium is seen as a niche ingredient for specialist steel alloys.
- At present, vanadium is mostly produced as a byproduct of something else - refined from steel smelter slag or flue dust...
I am sure that will change if/when flow batteries take off.

In contrast, zinc is seen as a mainstream industrial metal

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc

[SublimeTC]

I forgot to mention the other clock in my house that keeps good time- the central heating timer.

It keeps good time because, unlike most of the last few posts, it's connected to the electricity supply.

I agree. The power grid provides a lot of opportunities, especially in these times, this is an actual indicator.

[Bored chemist]

(ie mostly oxygen).

V2O5 is mostly vanadium by mass.

More importantly, a zinc/ iodine battery doesn't work without iodine.
You seem to have forgotten to price that,
Just to help you out, it's about $40 per pound.
And to get it to work you need 2 moles (i.e. 254 grams ) for each mole of zinc (i.e. 65g)

So you have your zinc for a dollar and you react it with about $150 worth of iodine.

It's remarkable how cheap vanadium suddenly looks.

[alancalverd]

Dinorwig should not be considered a significant energy store. On the basis of grid demand as I write (a hot day with half the country's industry and commerce still closed) it could supply the grid for 20 minutes. This was indeed the design specification - rapid spinup to cover sudden loss of generating capacity while coalfired stations were brought up to speed.

To my mind the most remarkable aspect of the story is the fact that all those dreadful oldfashioned coke burners could be fully synched from standby in less than 15 minutes. The problem has been slightly abated by the use of gas but the subsequent destruction of the coal mines and power stations has turned the UK into a vassal state of Russia, and the UK taxpayer has morphed from the beneficial owner of a secure electricity supply into the cash cow of wind farmers. 

[Bored chemist]

it could supply the grid for 20 minutes.

Which would be important if all the rest of the grid went down.
Except that it's only got a capacity of about 1.7 GW and current demand* is 32GW.
Yes, Dinorwig is built for "peak shaving".



* according to this
http://grid.iamkate.com/

To my mind the most remarkable aspect of the story is the fact that all those dreadful oldfashioned coke burners could be fully synched from standby in less than 15 minutes.

Nice conflation of issues there.
They were "dreadful" because they were filling the atmosphere with CO2, not because they couldn't be spun up fairly fast.
Nobody said they couldn't cope with the normal demands for power.
Only rather unusual circumstances (like the end of a major football match) would cause problems requiring help from stored storage.
The problem was that the use of fossil fuel was (one way or another) unsustainable.

[alancalverd]

They were "dreadful" because they were filling the atmosphere with CO2, …….The problem was that the use of fossil fuel was (one way or another) unsustainable.

Unlike gas, which has replaced coal? Fortunately, thanks to COVID, we now have enough hot air and steaming bullshit emanating from Downing Street to keep the survivors warm. Thus Mother Nature restores sustainability.

[Bored chemist]

They were "dreadful" because they were filling the atmosphere with CO2, …….The problem was that the use of fossil fuel was (one way or another) unsustainable.

Unlike gas, which has replaced coal? Fortunately, thanks to COVID, we now have enough hot air and steaming bullshit emanating from Downing Street to keep the survivors warm. Thus Mother Nature restores sustainability.

Gas has lower CO2 emissions (per MWhr) than coal, it's not so full of sulphur and...
What's the point?
It's not as if you don't actually know why they chose gas. For those who don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash_for_Gas

[Petrochemicals]

Dinorwig should not be considered a significant energy store. On the basis of grid demand as I write (a hot day with half the country's industry and commerce still closed) it could supply the grid for 20 minutes. This was indeed the design specification - rapid spinup to cover sudden loss of generating capacity while coalfired stations were brought up to speed.

To my mind the most remarkable aspect of the story is the fact that all those dreadful oldfashioned coke burners could be fully synched from standby in less than 15 minutes. The problem has been slightly abated by the use of gas but the subsequent destruction of the coal mines and power stations has turned the UK into a vassal state of Russia, and the UK taxpayer has morphed from the beneficial owner of a secure electricity supply into the cash cow of wind farmers. 

Entire network for 20 minutes or 1/72ths of the uks energy udsage daily ? I would consider such substantial.